Catch 22

[Island Drive]

All successful sports have competitions, trophies, recognition and parental support. Sporting events are organized and implemented from youth thru College. In pool all we play for is Ca$h 99% of the time, here in the states. Cash has a Very short lived value, and when bragged about, doesn't have value to anyone but the player. It will never carry the same weight as a meaningful Trophy and industry support. Every sport in the world from youth and into college Is Not for money, and they are successful and have a goal post somewhere. Pool has NONE of this, and doubtfully will till dramatic change is implemented.

 

[(((Satori)))]

Neils just won a world champion title which probably means more to him than the dollars.

Some kids just won jr. nationals.

 

[BasementDweller]

Let's face it - amateurism is pretty much long gone. Look no further than what is going on now with the NCAA. Once enough dollars become involved everybody will eventually want their "fair share". While I would say that most college sports still aren't big money makers, overall there is A LOT of money involved in college sports. The same thing is happening at the high school level at some of the bigger schools around the country. Many of them are building multi million dollar athletic facilities and they aren't just doing this for the love of the game.

Pool is no different. There really is no amateur pool anymore, all the national leagues payout money at the local, regional, and national levels.

To be honest, if I had a choice between a league or tournament that paid out money versus one that did not I'm certain I would pick the one with the money.

I don't really think there is any turning back at this point.

 

[macguy]

Let's face it - amateurism is pretty much long gone. Look no further than what is going on now with the NCAA. Once enough dollars become involved everybody will eventually want their "fair share". While I would say that most college sports still aren't big money makers, overall there is A LOT of money involved in college sports. The same thing is happening at the high school level at some of the bigger schools around the country. Many of them are building multi million dollar athletic facilities are they aren't just doing this for the love of the game.

Pool is no different. There really is no amateur pool anymore, all the national leagues payout money at the local, regional, and national levels.

To be honest, if I had a choice between a league or tournament that paid out money versus one that did not I'm certain I would pick the one with the money.

I don't really think there is any turning back at this point.

Are you defining league players as pros? They don't get enough money back to pay for the gas they spend going to league nights. I can see the point that the OP is making. Pool is actually primarily an amateur sport.

It has no commercial value. No one will pay a dime to watch it. It has no product driven industry where people make lots of money on the peripheral. People just play it for their own personal enjoyment.

 

[Island Drive]

Neils just won a world champion title which probably means more to him than the dollars.

Some kids just won jr. nationals.

Having run the Jr. Nat. for two years, and seeing where those kids/winners are at now in their life, is a template FEW parents follow, that's why Sigel put a golf club in his kids hands at an early age. I don't see Johnny Archer grooming his kids.
When Gabe Owen had his picture on the front page of all the billiard magazines years ago, it made me sad Why? Because having supported three pro tours and seeing the collateral damage of many, I felt it was Gabes' end of the road so to speak, and I feel I'm right years later.
Like Souquet said, the money will be spent but the trophy will last, that's So true.
After expenses and taxes, Neils will be lucky to hold 30 G's. I threw away every trophy I ever won, or gave it away, Except my Huebler Cup from 89 in Palm Springs, that one I'm proud of and I'll show to my Grandkids some day and tell em I had to go thru Carter, Archer, Cole, and many others. The value of the experience and the work it took to make 30K is probably minimum wage when one looks at time and effort to accomplish this task, but the trophy Neils has will tell stories, like the Germans will having the soccer Cup.

 

[(((Satori)))]

Having run the Jr. Nat. for two years, and seeing where those kids/winners are at now in their life, is a template FEW parents follow, that's why Sigel put a golf club in his kids hands at an early age. I don't see Johnny Archer grooming his kids.
When Gabe Owen had his picture on the front page of all the billiard magazines years ago, it made me sad Why? Because having supported three pro tours and seeing the collateral damage of many, I felt it was Gabes' end of the road so to speak, and I feel I'm right years later.
Like Souquet said, the money will be spent but the trophy will last, that's So true.
After expenses and taxes, Neils will be lucky to hold 30 G's. I threw away every trophy I ever won, or gave it away, Except my Huebler Cup from 89 in Palm Springs, that one I'm proud of and I'll show to my Grandkids some day and tell em I had to go thru Carter, Archer, Cole, and many others. The value of the experience and the work it took to make 30K is probably minimum wage when one looks at time and effort to accomplish this task, but the trophy Neils has will tell stories, like the Germans will having the soccer Cup.

Can you sum up the point of this thread. I'm not understanding what you are saying. You are talking about how we need trophies, which Gabe won, and goal posts etc. What is the point you are trying to make?

 

[Island Drive]

Can you sum up the point of this thread. I'm not understanding what you are saying. You are talking about how we need trophies, which Gabe won, and goal posts etc. What is the point you are trying to make?

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All successful sports have competitions, trophies, recognition and parental support.

 

[King T]

You cant spend

Let's face it - amateurism is pretty much long gone. Look no further than what is going on now with the NCAA. Once enough dollars become involved everybody will eventually want their "fair share". While I would say that most college sports still aren't big money makers, overall there is A LOT of money involved in college sports. The same thing is happening at the high school level at some of the bigger schools around the country. Many of them are building multi million dollar athletic facilities are they aren't just doing this for the love of the game.

Pool is no different. There really is no amateur pool anymore, all the national leagues payout money

All the big sports pay out large money in the end and Pool is no different, either we find a way to get cash into it or we are all stuck in the same rut. You cant spend trophy's, the bank just wont take them.

 

[Donny Lutz]

Trophies

Let's face it - amateurism is pretty much long gone. Look no further than what is going on now with the NCAA. Once enough dollars become involved everybody will eventually want their "fair share". While I would say that most college sports still aren't big money makers, overall there is A LOT of money involved in college sports. The same thing is happening at the high school level at some of the bigger schools around the country. Many of them are building multi million dollar athletic facilities are they aren't just doing this for the love of the game.

Pool is no different. There really is no amateur pool anymore, all the national leagues payout money

All the big sports pay out large money in the end and Pool is no different, either we find a way to get cash into it or we are all stuck in the same rut. You cant spend trophy's, the bank just wont take them.

At one point, almost thirty years ago, I had a collection of almost 100 trophies from bowling and pool. I got tired of hauling them around and kept only one. I took the name plates off a couple dozen that I was most proud of and kept them in a cigar box, - easy to store, and there for the memories.

When I left Wisconsin in '87, a friend offered to store them (and many other possessions) temporarily. I even paid them a few bucks. Sadly, when I returned a year later, my friend had given all my things to he Salvation Army. Everything, - nameplates, clothes, tools and some nice magazine collections.

The one trophy I kept, - a 3-foot tall MOMA team championship trophy - also became a hassle, so I threw away everything but the base, which I now use to set potted plants on...

 

[BasementDweller]

Are you defining league players as pros? They don't get enough money back to pay for the gas they spend going to league nights. I can see the point that the OP is making. Pool is actually primarily an amateur sport.

It has no commercial value. No one will pay a dime to watch it. It has no product driven industry where people make lots of money on the peripheral. People just play it for their own personal enjoyment.

Of course you and I know that (the bolded part above) but most decent pool players that I play with don't look at it like this. They are always looking for the next big paycheck and then when the paycheck comes and it's not what they expected they complain about it. Then they set their sights on their next big score. Of course anybody that keeps track knows that this is a losing proposition but sometimes reality is no fun, so we pool players have two choices: we can deny reality or we can just lie about it. Pool is nothing like the amateur sports I'm thinking of.

When I think of amateur sports I think of a different era. Back when people played games they loved prior to beginning their careers. You know - like all the Olympic events back before they even had professional avenues to explore after competing at the top levels. Most people understood that they were just doing something they loved and eventually they would have to do something else to pay the bills. Pool doesn't even come close to this to be honest. But really when you think about it - do any sports? Amateurism is dead.

 

[decent dennis]

So do you love or hate trophys? Never trow them out, there are plenty of organizations such as special olympics that would surely be happy to take them off your hands.

 

[Joe T]

You're right Bill and I'm not sure if there is any turning back or not but we're going to give it a go. For the last couple of years my mind has been on "Let's forget about how much we can win and replace it with, how much money can we save people". Let’s make competition affordable at all levels and have more people earn their way rather than pay their way to national events.

I think we can do it on all levels, especially the jr level we just haven't attempting to do so in the correct manner as of yet. I've spent the last four years or so helping my son become a golfer and I absolutely love the structure of golf on all levels, jr, amateur & pro. Last month RI had about 200 golfers trying to qualify for the RI Amateur title, they were only promised at least 1 round of golf for their $100 entry and if they won, they won the title, simply awesome. Every week there are multiple Jr tournaments throughout our region. I know everybody is saying or thinking that's because there's soo much money in a golfing career. There wasn't always money in a golfing career and I really don't want to debate whys but rather talk about hows;

With at least 64 united rooms as a base we can have Jrs competing on a national level and regular basis for as little as $5 or $10 dollars for their weekly fee when they compete (jr golf tournaments average around $50 but range from $25-$200). We simply take that money to fund the regional winners travel expense to go to national events for our kids on a regular basis and yes, the kids play for trophies and titles.

Have to run but want to stay involved in this thread. Let's hear some positive ideas

 

[Island Drive]

You're right Bill and I'm not sure if there is any turning back or not but we're going to give it a go. For the last couple of years my mind has been on "Let's forget about how much we can win and replace it with, how much money can we save people". Let’s make competition affordable at all levels and have more people earn their way rather than pay their way to national events.

I think we can do it on all levels, especially the jr level we just haven't attempting to do so in the correct manner as of yet. I've spent the last four years or so helping my son become a golfer and I absolutely love the structure of golf on all levels, jr, amateur & pro. Last month RI had about 200 golfers trying to qualify for the RI Amateur title, they were only promised at least 1 round of golf for their $100 entry and if they won, they won the title, simply awesome. Every week there are multiple Jr tournaments throughout our region. I know everybody is saying or thinking that's because there's soo much money in a golfing career. There wasn't always money in a golfing career and I really don't want to debate whys but rather talk about hows;

With at least 64 united rooms as a base we can have Jrs competing on a national level and regular basis for as little as $5 or $10 dollars for their weekly fee when they compete (jr golf tournaments average around $50 but range from $25-$200). We simply take that money to fund the regional winners travel expense to go to national events for our kids on a regular basis and yes, the kids play for trophies and titles.

Have to run but want to stay involved in this thread. Let's hear some positive ideas

What's Very interesting about the PGA, they will NOT allow TV announcers or color commentators to talk about prize money live.....EVER, why? Because the PGA understands that it diminishes EVERYTHING. Money will always be money, nothing more. Now winning the Masters.......says it all.