Would be nice but it is and always will be a fantasy. Unless the tables are owned/maintained/set-up by one promoter/director you will always have variances in tables/cloth/balls etc. Even then getting them dead perfect at each event is a pipe dream. Adapting/adjusting has been and always will be a big part of pool.
Cavernous Pockets...
- Thread starter L.S. Dennis
- Start date
Obviously right. But I’ve seen ••• playing the same two bar box for 24 years.
About three weeks back, catching up, we played the local 8-ball tournament.
I win. (lucky AND lucky draw)
Bad B., whilst contesting his second match best of three. Two and a half balls tied up? Two and a half balls open and pretty right in front of the foot corner pockets. Almost resembled the Eddieindetroit lags/Eddie’s log length/ball size presented and discussed.
Fact: The man’s been competing aggressively at 8 and 9 ball for 24 years. I’ve seen Bad B. shoot 90 from the white tees. It might as well be 240 years.
What does he do. You know what he does. Those two balls. Pretty. Right in front of the pockets.
You new players, he ends up punching a man’n the lot.
But Bad B., he got off.
Again.
Hard to believe. I couldn’t really quite discern what happened hiding in the shadow.
Fact: Bad B.-not an unintelligent man.
Strategy.
Be humble. Be courteous.
Don’t let his girl flirt with you too long. Look, this isn’t going to turn into “Comand In War” here.
But these are a foundation.
Of Peace.
You younger bucks happen to suddenly fall in love with pool like we did? I’m not saying they are this or that anything really...but pool players are bout some of the nicest people you’ll ever meet.
And you can trust your wing-man Eddie on that.
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Ghost of OBC
Well-known member
Dom
Sure, custom order a 15 ft rim for your home court, but why would the NBA raise the rim because you do? It's ridiculous.
Somehow I can go to Dick's Sporting Goods and buy a basketball goal made by any number of manufacturers and the height and diameter will be within 1% of spec. Same with a ball. I can buy 1000 table tennis balls and they'll all be within a fraction of mil or so of spec. Deliberately building tables in 4.0, 4.25, 4.5, and 5.0 pockets is a choice not a manufacturing problem. We could have one spec, but the game chooses not to.
Sure, custom order a 15 ft rim for your home court, but why would the NBA raise the rim because you do? It's ridiculous.
Not everyone has same talent/desire/skill. To say that recreational players should play same pockets as pros is insane. As far as pro pool goes its such a small part of pool as a whole that some variance is going to happen. One can harp on this for the next hundred years and things will still be the same. Good players/winners adapt, bad players/also-rans whine about conditions. Nicklaus used to say he loved it when someone bitched about a course. He said that was one less player he had to worry about. One thing that has always amazed/impressed me about top road players was their ability to adapt FAST to tables/conditions. Didn't have the luxury to complain if you wanted to eat/pay bills.
ACL
Well-known member
Very much this^^^^^
I played in a tournament a month ago and my first three matches were on GC with 4.75" CP. I played with a controlled aggression and tore through all three matches. My fourth match was played on a GC with 4.25" pockets. I have played on the table before so I wasn't intimidated or worried about the tighter pockets. I played well but lost a tough hill/hill match because of a stupid decision in the last rack (still kicking myself for it). My next match I was back on the 4.75" table and continued playing like I was on the tighter table until I realized I didn't have to but by then it was too late and I was out of the tournament.
The bottom line is that playing on a tight table is a mindset that can carry over even when you don't want or need it to. It's a lesson I learned the hard way and one I won't soon forget.
Do pro dart player stand further back?
Throw at smaller targets?
Just asking, I don't play darts.
Close but not exactly……but I do reread some wonderful books about the game we all love.
Knowledge is both refreshing and remindful because it keeps your eyes on the main objective.
To play better requires patience, curiosity, knowledge and practice. I’ve read Frank Beard’s books
on banking many times. When I play, if my bank shots aren’t going in, I revisit his books to adjust.
Because you know something does not mean you do it all the time. That’s why golfers, even pros,
hit tee shots out of bounds, in the water, or lose a ball. It didn’t have to happen but it occasionally does.
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
There is absolutely no chance it is anywhere near 20% imo.
I played a league 7-7 yesterday and in our chat about his game he mentioned his learning curve is generally steep and and he learns fast compared to others. He made the observation that since he joined as a 5 a couple of years ago, he has seen pretty much everyone tread water and stay at the same level they were at as he moves up the ranks. I think this is more common.
Don't get me wrong, a lot of improving has to be done to get to like a 6 or middling 7 in league but most people tap out around there and accept their enjoyable level of pool play while determining that the juice aint worth the squeeze when it comes to further advancement in pool skills. For others, their natural ability and table experience get them to about a 4, maybe soft 5 and they are just good chilling right there.
In another room I play that really caters to the social crowd rather than 'players', there's a handful of early 20s guys n gals working on their games and trying to get better while the vast majority of patrons, well into the high 90s% are just out for a good time and drinking with pool as the background activity.
So ye, I'm all for 5" pockets. Rec players gotta have fun too and they are the overwhelming majority of 'pool players'. I actually like that different tables play very different and there are different levels of difficulty to fine tune to your liking. If I had to nail down one size fits all dimensions, I guess I would go with the standard 4.5" CP, 2 balls wide, just like a basketball rim is 2 balls wide (yes they are that big). It is challenging enough for good players and still allows pool to be pool with combos and caroms and banks that go reasonably often and loose enough for rec players to actually finish a game in under 30min. Nice happy medium. Maybe we could go a bit tighter if more than 10% of people actually tried to get better at pool, which I doubt is the case. 5% may be high.
Before about 100 years ago, snooker (AKA billiards) tables came with different size pockets. Part of the negotiation for a big challenge match was the pocket size. Then the guys in charge standardized things. Pockets are not a single measurement, like 4 inches. Pockets are a shape and a size. Snooker uses 3-D templates that are required to fit snugly in the pockets. Records have been denied because the table was not certified as being in spec.
Ghost of OBC
Well-known member
Board, distance, and darts are all exactly the same for all players of the game. Same for table tennis. In the early aughts, there was a big controversy in table tennis when the ball regulation was changed from 38mm to 40mm in diameter. Some pros threatened to quit. Somehow the sport survived, you can't buy a new 38mm ball today for love or money.
I think a lot of the perceived "benefits" of practicing on really tight tables, then looser tables is a question of base rate error. If I practice on a smaller rim, I might be a 40% free throw shooter, move to a regulation rim and move up to a 60% free throw shooter. Now if the little rim has persuaded me that I'm actually a 40% free throw shooter, and then suddenly I perform at 60% when I move to regulation, I was just deceived by the little rim about how good I am. I was always a 60% shooter on regulation. Someone who practices and plays on regulation equipment is just more likely to have an accurate self assessment about how good they are on regulation equipment. In a contest of man v. man, the equipment shouldn't be a factor, which is different that man v nature games like golf, skiing etc.
If Snooker can standardize, and it doesn't seem to have killed that game, certainly competitive pool can as well. We just elect not to.
100% agree. I have 4.5" on my new ProAm and am a decent player who can beat the ghost somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 the time.
700+ players would scare the ghost out of the room and anyone under 550 fargo would get PTSD from even trying it.
To me, that puts the 4.5" deep-shelved pockets at a happy medium for pool players but perhaps not for bar-room bangers.
When I first started playing, I had an 8' table with 6" pockets. That was a lot of fun and prepared me for playing on the valley bar boxes.
I was pulling my hair out when I moved up to the 9' GCs at the pool hall though.
I absolutely hate missing a shot badly and having it fall anyway. You could imagine what I think when my opponent does it.
Watch videos from the 80s and into the 90s... those pockets were sewers.
While this thread is about pocket size we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that if all of the tables came out of a stamping machine identical in all respects they still would play very differently. One is by a door. One by a window that doesn't open but lets in late afternoon and evening sunlight. Some are by AC/Heater vents. Some are in high traffic areas, some with few people walking by. Near a bathroom?
Then there are the balls. Even if a hall buys decent balls with the sets soon mixed the balls play differently and poorly although we don't usually recognize this. I bought a thirty dollar set of balls to cut up for a project. Lost interest in the project so one day I took the balls to a well ran solid pool hall. I was truly amazed how much better my thirty dollar balls played than the hall balls! Reminded me of an old road man. His first move was to get his balls on the table. Failing that, at least his cue ball. He said if he couldn't get either his entire set or at least his cue ball on the table it might not be a game he wants to make. It was that important to him.
The tables get a little age on them, recovered a few times, totally different beasts! I shot at a hall with blue label Diamonds set up by a skilled mechanic. Then three or four tables were recovered by a local guy that was trying to make his bones in the table business. The pocket dimensions were spot on but something was vastly wrong. I think slight differences in cushion angles, I couldn't test without being very obvious. Regardless these tables, finest almost new Diamonds available, were crap to play on! I didn't know which ones had been recovered by the local guy but as I found them I made a point of remembering them. An OK guy, the pool hall owner was a good guy too. He wasn't trying to cheap out as much as help a local guy get started. I suspect those tables cost the owner a lot of money. Recreational customers may not realize a table is playing poorly but they recognize that they play better at one hall than another.
When the red dot balls(edit: Sorry, unclear here. I am talking about a measle ball) were getting popular and played with in tournaments fairly often I plunked down my thirty dollars from a trusted supplier and bought one. Compared to the I believe red circle cue balls in that hall if memory serves, the red dot ball rolled long, between a foot and a foot and a half long on three rail banks would be typical. Not a ball I wanted to practice with and then play with a house ball.
While we have to add weather conditions to be considered to a greater degree outdoors, there is still a lot that can't be ignored indoors. I believe reading these often overlooked conditions may be worth 2%-5%. At 750 fargo just considering room and table conditions might be worth 35 points or more, enough to tilt the balance sometimes when two pro's are playing heads up in a tournament.
Hu
Then there are the balls. Even if a hall buys decent balls with the sets soon mixed the balls play differently and poorly although we don't usually recognize this. I bought a thirty dollar set of balls to cut up for a project. Lost interest in the project so one day I took the balls to a well ran solid pool hall. I was truly amazed how much better my thirty dollar balls played than the hall balls! Reminded me of an old road man. His first move was to get his balls on the table. Failing that, at least his cue ball. He said if he couldn't get either his entire set or at least his cue ball on the table it might not be a game he wants to make. It was that important to him.
The tables get a little age on them, recovered a few times, totally different beasts! I shot at a hall with blue label Diamonds set up by a skilled mechanic. Then three or four tables were recovered by a local guy that was trying to make his bones in the table business. The pocket dimensions were spot on but something was vastly wrong. I think slight differences in cushion angles, I couldn't test without being very obvious. Regardless these tables, finest almost new Diamonds available, were crap to play on! I didn't know which ones had been recovered by the local guy but as I found them I made a point of remembering them. An OK guy, the pool hall owner was a good guy too. He wasn't trying to cheap out as much as help a local guy get started. I suspect those tables cost the owner a lot of money. Recreational customers may not realize a table is playing poorly but they recognize that they play better at one hall than another.
When the red dot balls(edit: Sorry, unclear here. I am talking about a measle ball) were getting popular and played with in tournaments fairly often I plunked down my thirty dollars from a trusted supplier and bought one. Compared to the I believe red circle cue balls in that hall if memory serves, the red dot ball rolled long, between a foot and a foot and a half long on three rail banks would be typical. Not a ball I wanted to practice with and then play with a house ball.
While we have to add weather conditions to be considered to a greater degree outdoors, there is still a lot that can't be ignored indoors. I believe reading these often overlooked conditions may be worth 2%-5%. At 750 fargo just considering room and table conditions might be worth 35 points or more, enough to tilt the balance sometimes when two pro's are playing heads up in a tournament.
Hu
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WobblyStroke
Well-known member
I wouldnt write it off as deception so easily. it is natural to learn more from failures than successes. tighter targets gorce u to be more precise and give you more reliable feedback on how precise u r.
If a guy makes a ball into the wrong part of the pocket he may not care or even notice, but if that same margin of error causes a miss on a tighter table he will pay more attention. and the first step to solving a problem is recognizing that ome exists to begin with.
Personally, if my stroke falters I like to play an hour or two on a snooker table. you get away with a lot less as every little slightly off centre pocket shot on a pool table is now an annoying miss. sharpens the game up in a hurry.
Ghost of OBC
Well-known member
That might be true for pure pocketing. Like putting to smaller cups. And if you want to use cup reducers before the club championship, you do you.
The gaff table is an artifact of gambling. A way for the local boys to get over on the road guys. Then, the road guys get good at playing on gaff tables. None of it has anything to do with growing pool as a sport.
Try recruiting kids into a sport where the goal could be any size plus or minus 25 percent, and where the field is likely worked over to advantage the home team, deliberately. It is a foolish way to grow the game.
As I said, if you think playing on 3 inch pockets at home makes you better, go for it. The rest of us should have some reasonable expectation of consistency when we go to compete.
Never served in the US military.
Happily never served.
Where I come from “Army Guy” is a title of respect.
So is Sun Tzu.
Thanks.
I think that it depends on the game- Straight pool is kinda tough for the average person on anything less than 4 3/4 corners BC of the sharp angle break shots. I think that 4 1/2 is OK for 8/9/10 ball. Seems like one pocket players prefer tighter pocket tables.
Ghost of OBC
Well-known member
Anybody remember the old Valley bar tables with big corners and smaller side pockets?
Pools is a great game.
So is life.
I hope that happens to me!
And if it did, I sure wouldn’t drive home pissed off.