CB or OB last

nksmfamjp

nksmfamjp

Refugee...
Silver Member
I want to throw this out here so it quits disrupting the "Fundamentals" thread and gets some air time. No reason to quabble back and forth about which is better. Let's just discuss what we look at last and how we think this works for us. Of course we should question others, so both of us learn from the thought.

When I first learned pool, I had to look at the OB last to make it, I thought. I couldn't get much of a leave though. Then I started worrying about how to get the leave I wanted and I realized, I'm not a good enough athlete to hit the exact spot without watching it hit. I also had an instructor tell me to look at the CB last to improve my leaves, but I tried to avoid that advice for a while. . .

So, now I look at the CB last. I do this because I need to see the exact spot on the CB it needs to hit. The whole process requires a thorough consideration prior to getting down. I line up, imagine the angle I need to slice the OB with the CB to put it in, get down, stop at the CB, check that my slice of the OB/speed/CB contact point is still correct, draw and fire the stroke. If the cue tip hits the CB right, I know the OB is going in and the leave will be as close as possible within my ability.

So for OB last folks, I do have 1 question. . .What are you looking at or keeping by viewing it last?
 
I posted this in the other thread you mentioned before I saw this thread. Here's my view:

For one large set of sports actions, let's call it Category I, the competitor is holding or is attached to a piece of equipment and desires to direct that piece of equipment elsewhere:
  • Throwing a baseball;
  • Throwing a football;
  • Throwing/shooting a basketball;
  • Throwing a dart;
  • Rolling a bowling ball;
  • Shooting an arrow;
  • Shooting a gun;
  • Driving a race car;
  • Riding a race horse.
In all of these, and many more, the competitor's "last look" is at the target for the ball or dart or car, etc. -- not at the ball (or steering wheel).

For another large set of sports actions, let's call it Category II, the competitor holds one piece of equipment and desires to hit another piece of equipment and direct that second piece of equipment to a desired target or with a certain degree of accuracy:
  • Hitting a baseball;
  • Kicking a football;
  • Hitting a tennis ball;
  • Hitting a golf ball;
  • Hitting a ping pong ball;
  • Hitting a badminton shuttlecock;
  • Striking a volley ball.
In all of these, and many more, the competitor's "last look" is at the ball -- not at the target for that ball and not at the piece of equipment he is holding.

So how about pool/billiards? Isn't it logically a Category II action? We hold one piece of equipment (the cue stick), desiring to strike a second piece of equipment (the cue ball), and send that second piece of equipment to a desired target (a proper hit on the object ball or rail). We are throwing the cue stick in a beautiful underhand motion at the cue ball. So "cue ball last" is appropriate, right?

But I am quite sure that the majority (but by no means all) of the top pool players look at the object ball last. If my analogies above are correct, why does "OB last" work so well for so many players? I believe it is because the cue ball is at rest and we can place our cue stick and bridge hand precisely behind it and thereby treat the combination of cue stick and cue ball as almost one piece of equipment instead of two. Then the cuing action becomes similar to a Category I action -- we are throwing the cue stick/ball at the object ball. So "object ball last" works just fine if the cue stick is always precisely delivered to the cue ball.

So either way -- CB last or OB last -- can work well in pool. I believe analogies with other sports argue more closely for CB last (my Category II above), but just a slightly different way of viewing what's happening can create a good Category I argument.
 
Object ball last on most shots...because your cue goes where your eyes go. Exceptions: jump shot, kick shot, masse' shot, the break. On these shots, CB last...because the CB is more important than the OB (or there is no OB, as in a kick shot).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
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Scott Lee said:
Cueball last on most shots...because your cue goes where your eyes go. Exceptions: jump shot, kick shot, masse' shot, the break. On these shots, CB last...because the CB is more important than the OB (or there is no OB, as in a kick shot).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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I think you meant "Object ball" to start your post.

You used to be a CB-last person, didn't you? I seem to recall that you switched after doing some studying about the way the eyes work.

Didn't you also used to play pretty sporty using that CB-last approach?
 
AtLarge said:
I think you meant "Object ball" to start your post.

You used to be a CB-last person, didn't you? I seem to recall that you switched after doing some studying about the way the eyes work.

Didn't you also used to play pretty sporty using that CB-last approach?
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I think he was being facetious since the poster above him just posted that up for the second time
 
softshot said:
I don't see how anyone could expect to accurately hit a target without looking at it..
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I can. Once I have aligned myself, the CB becomes my target. I can actually shoot with my eyes closed but I rather pay close attention as to where I'm striking the cueball.
 
JAW725 said:
I can. Once I have aligned myself, the CB becomes my target. I can actually shoot with my eyes closed but I rather pay close attention as to where I'm striking the cueball.
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yes its easy if you have proper alignment.....thats the key.....but your properly aligned into the contact point so thats your target.....

thats a good practice technique for help with finishing your stroke
 
I like to fixate on the object ball last, but I wouldn't be surprised if the fixation point didn't make much difference.

I think far bigger problem is not being able to fix the gaze on anything. I think it's our natural tendency to move the gaze right during or just before the cue action and that's what often causes a miss.
 
JarnoV said:
I like to fixate on the object ball last, but I wouldn't be surprised if the fixation point didn't make much difference.

I think far bigger problem is not being able to fix the gaze on anything. I think it's our natural tendency to move the gaze right during or just before the cue action and that's what often causes a miss.
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thats rigth.....just like Scott said your hands follow your eyes.....but the mental imagery is important too. Praticing perfect alignment with the eyes closed on the delivery will help besides finishing, to see the correct image in your head....

that spot on the object ball...
 
greyghost said:
thats rigth.....just like Scott said your hands follow your eyes.....
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Your hands follow your eyes? really? thats interesting. who ultimately determined that is the absolute truth? that reminds me of a story somebody told me once: "If your riding a motorcycle down the road and you look over into the ditch, where does the motorcycle go? Into the ditch, of course!" mine would continue to go straight down the middle of the road.

for me, my hands would follow my eyes to the general vicinity. but to strike the CB at the EXACT aim point with a 13mm tip while at the same time looking elsewhere just doesnt work for me. i have tried it 10,000 times. doesnt work.

DCP
 
softshot said:
I don't see how anyone could expect to accurately hit a target without looking at it..
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i totally agree. the target is the EXACT spot on the CB that you want to hit with your 13mm tip. this is a no-brainer. i mean, how can you expect to have the pin-point accuracy if you arent looking at what you want to hit?

Mike
 
All of the good players I have talked with, not necessarily top pros, tell me to look at the OB last. I've never even heard of looking at the CB last until I read it on this forum.
 
I look at the precise point on the OB that I want the CB to contact...then I set my bridgehand and stance so that my cue is in line to that tangent...then I address the CB with my measuring strokes, adjusting slightly for throw, looking back and forth between the CB and the point of impact on the OB. When everything is as it should be, I pull the trigger, looking at the OB (all the while visualizing the shot being made). To be honest, most English addressed on the CB (for me, anyway) is almost reflex; I really don't think that much about it, I'm concentrating on the impact point on the OB and visualizing making the shot and the path of the CB after impact for leave. Muscle memory (and 30 years of strokes) sort of handles it for me. I just don't feel the need (for me) to focus that much concentration on the precise point my tip hits the CB--it just happens. About 20 years ago, I shot with a 12mm (very whippy) shaft that put so much on the CB I really couldn't focus on that; a little bit went a long way, so just thinking the English was more than enough. Now I shoot with 13mm and still don't think too hard about the address on the CB (but obviously have to do a little more).

One of my mentors taught me to visualize a dime centered on your side of the CB...if your tip has to contact outside of that little circle, you're doing too much or something is wrong with your stroke.

I'm currently in the middle of the 1996 Color of Money match between Earl and Efren on Youtube...I notice that both of them look at the OB last, and both aim their measuring strokes at the table in front of the CB, lifting it to the precise strike when the pull the trigger. Two of the best of all time can't be wrong, can they?!
 
for years i used to shoot and view the cue ball last..it worked for a while but then realized that aiming the object ball last made things so much more accurate.

this is how snooker players pocket the ball so well and their margin of error is fairly small.

everyone has lots of different ways to aim, stroke and stand...but after much research and practice...viewing the object last was the only way to go.

best thing to do is try both and then come to your own conclusion. In order to fairly make a decisive conclusion is you must put 100% effort in both methods. I ended up realizing that viewing the object ball was the best for me.
 
CB or OB looked at last ?

It's pretty simple... ? are most missed shots due to bad aiming (not seeing the exact spot to hit on the object ball... or the cue ball being miss hit throwing the shot off?

The exceptions people mention when they DO look at the cue ball last are all on difficult shots requiring "EXACT" cueing of the cue ball! That isn't logical to only do that then ???
 
OB last for me BUT
CB last when breaking.

What am I looking at?... I look at the point on the OB I want to make contact with.


-Abe
 
cjs said:
problem: unskilled players posting their opinion

any skilled player will tell you they look at the ob last

(break, jump-shot, masse are exceptions)
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Ralf Souquet - skilled player - CB last

Johnny Archer - skilled player - CB last

DCP - fair player - CB last because OB last just doesnt work for him.

DCP
 
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