Center Ball Hit - Myth?

D

DrCue'sProtege

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
ok, posters, i have seen this talked about on TV (ESPN and Accu-Stats) many, MANY times over the years. and to me its just simply wrong. in the first diagram i hear commentators say all the time that its a simple center ball hit and the ball will come around two rails back up to around Point A for position on the 2-Ball. i just cant buy this.

when i set this shot up and strike it center ball - not left, not right, not high, not low, no stun, etc - the ball comes up to around Point B in the diagram below. which, of course, isnt very good position on the 2-Ball.

i have to assume the players are either hitting this shot with either very slight stun, or a half tip of left english.

thoughts? am i right or wrong here? and just for visual clarification, the difference between Point A and Point B in the diagram is around one foot.

DCP

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While I have to repeat the old refrain: "DCP, that's actually still fine position in the 2-ball, you have to learn to accept it when you get pretty good position rather than absolute perfect position", I do agree with you here: good players (and commentators) often say center ball when they mean stun, when in reality stun is always below center, unless the CB and OB are only a few inches apart.

So I think that's your answer, they don't mean center, they mean stun. Also, many good players put a touch of outside english on almost all cut shots. The outside has two relevant effects on this shot: it pushes the CB further left off the first rail, shortening the shot more towards point A, and also gyroscopically, a little side-spin will resist the CB's tendency to pick up forward roll as it travels towards the OB. So a touch of side spin means you can hit closer to center and still get stun.

-Andrew
 
Last edited:
Andrew Manning said:
While I have to repeat the old refrain: "DCP, that's actually still fine position in the 2-ball, you have to learn to accept it when you get pretty good position rather than absolute perfect position", I do agree with you here: good players (and commentators) often say center ball when they mean stun, when in reality stun is always below center, unless the CB and OB are only a few inches apart.

So I think that's your answer, they don't mean center, they mean stun. Also, many good players put a touch of outside english on almost all cut shots. The outside has two relevant effects on this shot: it pushes the CB further left off the first rail, shortening the shot more towards point A, and also gyroscopically, a little side-spin will resist the CB's tendency to pick up forward roll as it travels towards the OB. So a touch of side spin means you can hit closer to center and still get stun.

-Andrew
Click to expand...

To many players 'Stun' is a type of stroke applied to the cueball, where you hit it harder with usually more spin, trying to get the cueball to stay on the tangent line longer, before the spin catches.
 
cuetechasaurus said:
To many players 'Stun' is a type of stroke applied to the cueball, where you hit it harder with usually more spin, trying to get the cueball to stay on the tangent line longer, before the spin catches.
Click to expand...

That's not the standard definition of stun, which normally means the CB is sliding without topspin or backspin. What you're talking about is still a draw or follow shot, it's just hit harder.

-Andrew
 
if you just hit the cue ball low, its not the same as stun. you have to hit the cue ball hard enough to get it to slide to get the stun effect. therefore, there is a HUGE difference between shooting a stun shot and hitting the cue ball below center.

i watched someone a couple of years ago try and instruct someone on the stun shot. this "instructor" (just another player) told the student to hit the cueball below center to get stun. the student never could get the stun. when this instructor went to the bathroom i walked over to the student and told him to get stun you have to hit it just hard and low enough to get the cue ball to slide. this "Sliding" produces the "Stun" effect that they were looking for. after that, the student was getting stun. when the instructor came back he told the student "Now you got it! see, i told you!" we just looked at each other and kind of laughed.

so, to hit the shot in the diagram with a slightly below center/stun type of shot all of a sudden makes this shot a lot more difficult than just hitting it center ball. it just amazes me the announcers, who are supposedly extremely knowledgeable, continually say center ball when its obviously not. its either got to be very slight stun, or perhaps a half tip of left english.

DCP
 
My .02

When they are talking about center ball, they are talking on the center line. High, low and in the middle. If you want the cue ball to be sliding upon impact, sometimes you must hit low center. Correct me if I misunderstand the post.
Purdman
 
The announcers can't see the exact angle or call fine adjustments. Only the shooter can tell exactly how to shoot the shot. I'd say their call was close, besides it might bore the average viewing audience.

Rod
 
DCP,
Purdman is correct; many announcers (whether correctly or not) use the term "center ball" to mean NO left or right English. In their parlance; follow, draw, stun are all "center ball".

Certainly the positions you show could both be accomplished without straying from the vertical center line. Mark Wilson and Joe Tucker both have drills on exactly this topic. I think it is safe to say that any players game can improve if he practices the art of obtaining this type of position without straying from the vertical axis (remember that contact with the object ball and those 2 sequential rails will provide a modicum of spin without you having to impart any outside English with your cue).

The notion that outside English "helps" make the shot is somewhat controversial (there are positives and negatives).
 
Its funny when I hear the announcers say center ball, I would be more likely to think that if they didn't mean specifically center ball, they meant no follow or no draw. A touch of inside or running english can still be on the center axis.

Shooting the shot with a center ball type hit will allow some english from the friction contact between CB and OB be more prevelent than it otherwise would if there were draw or follow on the shot also.

I sure wouldn't free comfortable shooting that shot and wanting to go two rails without at least a touch of outside english of my own and not relying on contact english to carry it the two rails.

Not to mention a little outside will help the CB roll off the OB and help prevent possible cling or skid.
 
Williebetmore said:
DCP,
Purdman is correct; many announcers (whether correctly or not) use the term "center ball" to mean NO left or right English. In their parlance; follow, draw, stun are all "center ball".

Certainly the positions you show could both be accomplished without straying from the vertical center line. Mark Wilson and Joe Tucker both have drills on exactly this topic. I think it is safe to say that any players game can improve if he practices the art of obtaining this type of position without straying from the vertical axis (remember that contact with the object ball and those 2 sequential rails will provide a modicum of spin without you having to impart any outside English with your cue).

The notion that outside English "helps" make the shot is somewhat controversial (there are positives and negatives).
Click to expand...

Willie, I believe Phill Capelle has used the term center ball to mean No left or right in his instruction books.
Purd
 
Purdman said:
Willie, I believe Phill Capelle has used the term center ball to mean No left or right in his instruction books.
Purd
Click to expand...

excellent points Willie and Purdman. as a matter of fact, Tom Rossman told me the same thing once, that they probably were referring to the vertical axis, meaning no left or right.

but..........if the shot is to be accomplished with a very slight below center stun type of stroke they probably should mention that instead of just saying center ball and confusing illiterates like myself. :eek:

DCP
 
Basically . . . I think your just putting to much weight in the announcers. :D I mean , they call it wrong often and then admit that they can't always see the correct angle from thier point of view. I wouldn't consider most of what they say more than a generalization most of the time. They cameras are so tight you can often see better yourself what action a player used on a given shot not to mention that CB postion + or - a foot is affected by more then just where the CB is hit. (Speed,Stroke,Etc)
 
lol?

The announcers are absolutely correct here, it's not a terminology issue.

If the cueball is hit center ball, it can hit the object ball sliding, rolling, or somewhere in between. Position "A" is achieved with center ball and only enough force that the ball is rolling or starting to roll.

With true center ball, if it's shot as diagrammed, and if the cueball is sliding, it would come dangerously close to scratching. You'd need to hit it a bit firmly to get the cueball across the 4.5 foot gap without it picking up any forward roll. If you hit it less firmly, it starts rolling, and that forward roll will get it to point A. You'd need even more forward roll (+ maybe sidespin) to reach point B. You should be getting nowhere near point B with a center ball shot.

centerball.jpg

rollingball.jpg


We really should get rid of 'stun' because it just adds confusion and means different things in different places. In my area it almost always means pounding a shot hard with center ball when you don't have much angle, and it's always used as a verb "I had to stun that sucker to make it move 4 inches closer to the opposite rail"... not "I hit the ball with stun to get it to move there". In other areas it means other things. But I don't think there needs to be a word for 'stun'. You can't hit a ball with 'stun'. That's like saying 'put a little center on this shot', it makes no sense.
 
CreeDo said:
You should be getting nowhere near point B with a center ball shot.

We really should get rid of 'stun' because it just adds confusion and means different things in different places. You can't hit a ball with 'stun'.
Click to expand...

1) nowhere near point B? completely disagree. again, perhaps the diagrams are slightly off, but that is absolutely where i get to with a center ball shot. now, remember, i dont mean stun

2) adds confusion? cant hit a ball with stun? you are joking, right?

DCP
 
Shot

First, I would have shot it with low left kind of kill shot, and let the english
2 rail me, and come up straighter on the 2 ball. (but the position of the 3 ball might change how I shot the 2).
 
This is what I mean by "you can't hit a cueball with stun":

Stun is not a type of english. It's a word used to describe a certain action people see on the cueball after it's been struck. You can't really point to one spot on the cueball and say 'hit here and you always have stun english'. It's not follow, draw, or sidespin. If it were follow, draw, or sidespin, we'd just call it by those names.

You might say "well, that's because it's not any of those things, it's like a hard center ball hit". If that's what stun is, then people should just say "a hard center ball hit"... using words like stun adds confusion because it means different things in different areas.

I think that, as it's drawn, you must have some forward roll on the cueball to reach point B. But there's another explanation. When the cueball hits the rail at an angle, the rail grabs it for a second and the cueball comes off the rail with spin (running english). Even if it had absolutely 0 spin when it hits the rail, by the time it leaves the rail it will definitely have added spin. So the cueball is probably picking up sidespin after the first rail, and the sidespin carries it 'wide' off the 2nd rail to point B. It's almost the same effect you'd have gotten if you'd hit it with a touch of left.
 
where is point B?

Now that someone added pics (thanks!) I started to follow this thread. But can someone tell me
briefly where point B is? (I can't run cuetable on LINUX which is why I'm asking). Assuming
the origin is the top left in the diagrams, just a simple X.X diamonds to the left and Y.Y diamonds
down would be enough, thanks.

Yes the term stun can be confusing, just like center, and even english (which some people use to
only describe side, where others use it to describe high/low).
 
FWIW, Creedo is way right in my opinion. Thanks to guys like the Monk we have confusing terminology.

1. The 90 degree departure from the OB is a stop shot period, no spin when it contacts the ball. Its only a question of speed on how far the ball travels from there.

2. The diagram shows an overcut with the CB reacting like it had draw, its just plain wrong.

3. The shot is made with a little high and, if needed for angle, a little left.

Some people use stun and stop as the same, others consider stun more of a power type shot. We use to call stun shots, force shots, and they are made with different vertical locations and on a rare occasion english.
 
slide

center ball will also slide some.if the ball isn't ROLLING when it hits the OB or rail it will make i pretty large difference.i'm sure u have stopped a ball with center ball,its the same thing here really.also when they say "center ball hit" it also could just mean "no side english" which would sound a little funny.
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
1) nowhere near point B? completely disagree. again, perhaps the diagrams are slightly off, but that is absolutely where i get to with a center ball shot. now, remember, i dont mean stun

2) adds confusion? cant hit a ball with stun? you are joking, right?

DCP
Click to expand...

Perhaps you are talking about what you put on the CB, and he is talking about what it had when it hit the ball. If you use center and don't pound the ball, the cloth will give your CB some forward roll, just like a little high, and you will hit the ball with it and contact the rail at the spot you are talking about. Sort like, if you want a 90 degree departure, then you have to move down the verticle axis as the distance from the ball increases, as a general rule.
 
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