"Center Ball" - Magic or Myth?

[Patrick Johnson]

Patrick,
Will you at least admit that using TOI, might be a tool to help the shooter increase their focus?

I've said that multiple times, including in my last post in this thread (directly above yours).

"You don't need TOI to hit the CB or the pocket more accurately, but if TOI gets you to pay attention to that where other methods didn't, then I wholeheartedly recommend it to you."

I've also said multiple times that it's the main reason I think TOI is helpful to others.

Try reading more and assuming less and you'll make fewer errors like asking me to "at least admit" something I've been saying for weeks.

pj
chgo

 

[JoeyA]

I've said that multiple times, including in my last post in this thread (directly above yours).

"You don't need TOI to hit the CB or the pocket more accurately, but if TOI gets you to pay attention to that where other methods didn't, then I wholeheartedly recommend it to you."

I've also said multiple times that it's the main reason I think TOI is helpful to others.

Try reading more and assuming less and you'll make fewer errors like asking me to "at least admit" something I've been saying for weeks.

pj
chgo

I guess your admission got buried in your endless denials about how it doesn't work. My bad. :grin:

 

[duckie]

In the Pleasure of Small motions, there is a part that covers why a persons skill will increase when they get a new stick. It's not the stick, but they are actually slowly down and really being aware of what they are doing, ie, paying attention to what they are doing.

So, it really doesn't matter what you do , its how well you can keep doing whatever it's is you do that works for you.

However, just because whatever it is appears to work for you does not mean that whatever works for you has any basis in reality, ie increasing the margin of error on a shot as example.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I guess your admission got buried in your endless denials about how it doesn't work.

I've never said it "doesn't work" - that's the same untruth you previously told about my comments regarding CTE. I've only said it doesn't help in the ways that some say it does.

Continuing to making untrue statements like this buries your own credibility. The snarky smilies make you seem insincere rather than mistaken.

pj
chgo

 

[ENGLISH!]

In the Pleasure of Small motions, there is a part that covers why a persons skill will increase when they get a new stick. It's not the stick, but they are actually slowly down and really being aware of what they are doing, ie, paying attention to what they are doing.

So, it really doesn't matter what you do , its how well you can keep doing whatever it's is you do that works for you.

However, just because whatever it is appears to work for you does not mean that whatever works for you has any basis in reality, ie increasing the margin of error on a shot as example.

Mr. Duckie.

I agree with your blue statement above.

However, I have a bit of a different take regarding your red statement.
Whatever it is that works for one is their 'reality'. It may only be their 'reality', but if their reality frees up their mind & ultimately their stroke, so that their stroke is more accurate then it is a true reality of some sort. Whether that be Ghost Ball Aiming, Fractional Aiming, CTE, SEE, aiming for english or TOI, or whatever. (I went from ghost ball to fractional overlap w/ english rather quickly, I put my CB in a near ghost ball location)

As you say if it is working for one then it is 'their reality' & one should not leave their reality. However, if one's reality is not getting it done sufficiently, then perhaps one should look outside their own 'reality' for help, so as to hopefully find something that will work better.

TOI is one of the very few things that I have found on AZB that has actually been able to affect my game in a positive way after playing rather well for a very long time using english on nearly every shot.

I know have two very effective options.

Best Regards to You &

 

[JoeyA]

I've never said it "doesn't work" - that's the same untruth you previously told about my comments regarding CTE. I've only said it doesn't help in the ways that some say it does.

Continuing to making untrue statements like this buries your own credibility. The snarky smilies make you seem insincere rather than mistaken.

pj
chgo

Patrick,
It seems that every time CJ says something about TOI, you say that's not trueor something to that effect.

OK, so your admission that TOI could increase focus for the shooter and thereby be a valuable tool for some shooters, must have gotten buried in your endless denials of his perspectives. Is that better for you?

 

[CJ Wiley]

From my experience less calculations improves overall performance substantially

The last possibilty is why CJ suggests aiming inside of the full hit side of the pocket for a center strike on the CB & THEN do a parallel shift to just the TOI. If the stroke misses to center the ball still goes in & if hit with the TOI the ball still goes into the middle & if the stroke misses further to the other side than just the TOI the ball still goes into the thin hit side of the pocket. I'd say that that increases the margin of error of the stroke.

So, here's another point of my conclusion. One's aim can be off, out side of the pocket & the TOI can get the OB into the full hit side of the pocket, hence the increase of 'aiming' margin of error. IMHO Only one combination can cause a mis. A ball aligned outside of the pocket AND an unintended center stirke or a complete cross over to the other side which for all practicle purposes is simply not going to happen & if that is an option then one should be working on nothing but their stoke.

I hope this helps or opens up something else for consideration & discussion.

Regards &[/QUOTE]

You are hitting on some key factors, Rick.

The thing that no one is taking into consideration is when using TOI you will, especially on the longer, more difficult shots actually aim inside the pocket. Since you are using the TOI you know the ball will have a larger pocket zone because it does start inside the actual pocket and throws into the 1st section, 2nd section or 3rd section. Try that with center ball.

This is how it is in golf, and why the pro's approach gives them a bigger target zone. When they hit the golf ball it actually starts out headed outside the fairway, then draws back towards the center.

This is what you can do using TOI or you can do it with spin, however, the spinning requires you to make two calculations and TOI requires only one. From my experience less calculations improves overall performance substantially.

This is another key point, and there are many more in the TOI video. I discovered early on the ones on this Forum that argue with anything new an potentially helpful were also the ones that never try anything new and potentially helpful. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[vapoolplayer]

So, I've only skimmed over most of this as a lot of replies are just gibberish.

Is anyone actually saying that any point on the cue ball is "harder" or "easier" to hit?

Or is the argument that hitting the cue in the center will have a greater chance of missing a shot than hitting the cue off center?


Physically speaking(and i'm seriously talking physics) every spot on the cue for the most part is equally as hard to hit. With the exception of the far outer edges, as they become harder to hit due to the cue glancing off the cue ball.

Also physically speaking, hitting dead center is almost impossible to accomplish, and is actually impossible to consistently accomplish by a human. Obviously we can come close enough to make the cue spin in a forward or backward direction and with little enough left or right spin to alter the path of the cue ball in enough of a left or right direction to matter.

Taking the above statement into account, it is just as hard to hit the exact spot we intend to when we cue to the left or right of center. Some people are more accurate than others on hitting the cue closer to the intended spot. So, whatever your "personal margin of error" is for hitting the cue in the center is the exact same for hitting the cue off center to the left or right.

Again I'm not sure if this is being debated, but if so, its a moot point as the ability to hit the cue ball on any given spot (within reason and not extremely to the right or left) is not any different whether you aim for left, center, or right.

Now, is it easier to pocket a ball with a touch of inside, touch of outside, or center ball? I haven't seen any post yet that logically and accurately presents how any of those 3 ways makes pocketing a ball easier. Theoretically speaking, they are all just as "easy" if one accounts for the different effects each strinking point will have on the cue and object balls. Could each way be easier for an individual? Absolutely.

So, in a fairly short way.....can anyone logically and accurately explain why hitting the cue on the inside, center, or outside(obviously in relation to the specific shot) makes pocketing a ball easier?

Answers like "try it and you'll be hooked" and "golf and tennis" don't count. Please explain this in terms related to pool, as the physics of tennis and golf are vastly different than pool. I'm not claiming TOI does not work, I'm simply asking for the "real" reason it supposedly works.

 

[markgw]

So, I've only skimmed over most of this as a lot of replies are just gibberish.

Is anyone actually saying that any point on the cue ball is "harder" or "easier" to hit?

Or is the argument that hitting the cue in the center will have a greater chance of missing a shot than hitting the cue off center?


Physically speaking(and i'm seriously talking physics) every spot on the cue for the most part is equally as hard to hit. With the exception of the far outer edges, as they become harder to hit due to the cue glancing off the cue ball.

Also physically speaking, hitting dead center is almost impossible to accomplish, and is actually impossible to consistently accomplish by a human. Obviously we can come close enough to make the cue spin in a forward or backward direction and with little enough left or right spin to alter the path of the cue ball in enough of a left or right direction to matter.

Taking the above statement into account, it is just as hard to hit the exact spot we intend to when we cue to the left or right of center. Some people are more accurate than others on hitting the cue closer to the intended spot. So, whatever your "personal margin of error" is for hitting the cue in the center is the exact same for hitting the cue off center to the left or right.

Again I'm not sure if this is being debated, but if so, its a moot point as the ability to hit the cue ball on any given spot (within reason and not extremely to the right or left) is not any different whether you aim for left, center, or right.

Now, is it easier to pocket a ball with a touch of inside, touch of outside, or center ball? I haven't seen any post yet that logically and accurately presents how any of those 3 ways makes pocketing a ball easier. Theoretically speaking, they are all just as "easy" if one accounts for the different effects each strinking point will have on the cue and object balls. Could each way be easier for an individual? Absolutely.

So, in a fairly short way.....can anyone logically and accurately explain why hitting the cue on the inside, center, or outside(obviously in relation to the specific shot) makes pocketing a ball easier?

Answers like "try it and you'll be hooked" don't count. I'm not claiming TOI does not work, I'm simply asking for the "real" reason it supposedly works.

I have noticed Dennis Hatch uses a lot of center cueball. More than I have seen from most pros and he is an excellent shotmaker..Practicing with center ball I am sure is the answer to gaining confidence with it...

 

[vapoolplayer]

After reading CJ's first post a couple more times this is what I'm seeing as the explanation. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You "deflect" each shot at little with TOI.

So, lets say for example. You are cutting an object ball to the right into the corner pocket. So you would cue up with TOI slightly RIGHT of center on the cue ball? This causes the cue to be slightly deflected to the LEFT.

That being said I have 2 questions:

1: Is your TOI enough to "spin" the object ball? I.E. you cue right of center causing the object ball to spin or throw to the left? I'm assuming you are using just enough left that you do NOT throw the object ball?

2: Is the deflection you are imposing on the cue ball by using a TOI enough you need to adjust, or are you aiming the cue ball to hit the object ball in the same spot you would aim if you were attempting to hit center ball?

 

[CJ Wiley]

it's about hitting a consistent shot that you can "master"

So, I've only skimmed over most of this as a lot of replies are just gibberish.

Is anyone actually saying that any point on the cue ball is "harder" or "easier" to hit?

Or is the argument that hitting the cue in the center will have a greater chance of missing a shot than hitting the cue off center?


Physically speaking(and i'm seriously talking physics) every spot on the cue for the most part is equally as hard to hit. With the exception of the far outer edges, as they become harder to hit due to the cue glancing off the cue ball.

Also physically speaking, hitting dead center is almost impossible to accomplish, and is actually impossible to consistently accomplish by a human. Obviously we can come close enough to make the cue spin in a forward or backward direction and with little enough left or right spin to alter the path of the cue ball in enough of a left or right direction to matter.

Taking the above statement into account, it is just as hard to hit the exact spot we intend to when we cue to the left or right of center. Some people are more accurate than others on hitting the cue closer to the intended spot. So, whatever your "personal margin of error" is for hitting the cue in the center is the exact same for hitting the cue off center to the left or right.

Again I'm not sure if this is being debated, but if so, its a moot point as the ability to hit the cue ball on any given spot (within reason and not extremely to the right or left) is not any different whether you aim for left, center, or right.

Now, is it easier to pocket a ball with a touch of inside, touch of outside, or center ball? I haven't seen any post yet that logically and accurately presents how any of those 3 ways makes pocketing a ball easier. Theoretically speaking, they are all just as "easy" if one accounts for the different effects each strinking point will have on the cue and object balls. Could each way be easier for an individual? Absolutely.

So, in a fairly short way.....can anyone logically and accurately explain why hitting the cue on the inside, center, or outside(obviously in relation to the specific shot) makes pocketing a ball easier?

Answers like "try it and you'll be hooked" and "golf and tennis" don't count. Please explain this in terms related to pool, as the physics of tennis and golf are vastly different than pool. I'm not claiming TOI does not work, I'm simply asking for the "real" reason it supposedly works.

No one is saying one part of the cue ball is easier or harder to hit than another, that would be ridiculous.

One of the points is if you try to hit center you can't throw the object ball, thus creating a pocket zone. It's not about being easier or harder to pocket a ball, it's about hitting a consistent shot that you can "master". Hitting all over the cue ball may be fun, but it's not consistent.

 

[vapoolplayer]

No one is saying one part of the cue ball is easier or harder to hit than another, that would be ridiculous.

One of the points is if you try to hit center you can't throw the object ball, thus creating a pocket zone. It's not about being easier or harder to pocket a ball, it's about hitting a consistent shot that you can "master". Hitting all over the cue ball may be fun, but it's not consistent.

Thank you. That makes much more sense than some of what I've read so far.

Would I be right to assume you will be aiming into the portion of the pocket on the "starting side" of the throw? I.E. if you're using right of center, thus throwing the object ball to the left, you would aim for the far right side of the pocket....so if you throw the ball where you want, you hit the intended part of the pocket, but if you throw the ball too much you will still hit the pocket on the "wider" side?

 

[CJ Wiley]

thinking {differently} is the ONLY way to change how you look at the game of pool.

Aiming is more about perception than anything else....and this isn't to say it's easy because it's always more difficult than we want to admit to change our existing perception..

Let me use a simple Bowling analogy to try to influence your perception, because analogies are often the most effective way to quickly get results....

At first glance it would make logical sense in bowling to aim straight at the first pin and try to throw a straight ball...reasoning that the straight ball would be the easiest to control and you would get the most force going straight at all the pins (this would be the pocket in pool)

After trial and error you would find that you could NOT hit the center pin square, so you would get a different result from the shot EVERY TIME (and you would miss the pocket in many different ways)....knowing you couldn't be as consistant as possible you might watch a professional bowler and see that he is NOT trying to hit the center of the pins (or pocket), but is throwing the ball in such a way as to create a BIG SWEET SPOT or pocket in the pins and can CONSISTENTLY hit the same side of center EVERY TIME!

The results speak for themselves....my challenge to you is to see this happening in pool, with ONE DIFFERENCE....there's an object ball between you and your target, so you have to invert the example above.

This will require you to think and thinking {differently} is the ONLY way to change how you look at the game of pool....not me or anyone else can do it for you, but what I attempt to do is to give you enough visual examples so that you will be able to do it and feel it for yourself.

Be easy on yourself, Rome wasn't built in a day and it took me and my associates many years to learn how to do this properly, but the rewards will be worthwhile and you will be at least capable playing your first perfect (300) game (1 hour without missing a billiard shot) ...with enough practice.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Patrick,
It seems that every time CJ says something about TOI, you say that's not trueor something to that effect.

When he makes a factually untrue claim about how TOI works. He keeps making the same claims, so I keep pointing out that they're not true. Kinda like your comments about what I've said, both here and in past threads on other topics.

OK, so your admission that TOI could increase focus for the shooter and thereby be a valuable tool for some shooters, must have gotten buried in your endless denials of his perspectives. Is that better for you?

I haven't needed to "admit" anything - I said weeks ago, before CJ, you or anybody else did, that increasing focus was probably the reason that TOI helps some players. It seems you're the one finally "admitting" the obvious.

pj
chgo

 

[CJ Wiley]

I will NEVER hit the other side of the cue ball

After reading CJ's first post a couple more times this is what I'm seeing as the explanation. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You "deflect" each shot at little with TOI.

So, lets say for example. You are cutting an object ball to the right into the corner pocket. So you would cue up with TOI slightly RIGHT of center on the cue ball? This causes the cue to be slightly deflected to the LEFT.

That being said I have 2 questions:

1: Is your TOI enough to "spin" the object ball? I.E. you cue right of center causing the object ball to spin or throw to the left? I'm assuming you are using just enough left that you do NOT throw the object ball?

2: Is the deflection you are imposing on the cue ball by using a TOI enough you need to adjust, or are you aiming the cue ball to hit the object ball in the same spot you would aim if you were attempting to hit center ball?

Yes indeed, however, you may be missing something....I really DON'T have to hit the same part of the cue ball every time because the pocket is at least 80% bigger than the object ball and it will never deflect/squirt/veer more than the size of the pocket IF I AIM AT THE SHORT SIDE OF THE POCKET....and of course if I don't hit the ball extremely hard....on the other hand if someone tries to hit center ball and aim at the center of the opening (pocket) they effectively have approximately 70% of the margin for error that I have created....the point of my first example wasn't the fact you pointed out of having half the cue ball to your player only having the center...my point is I will NEVER hit the other side of the cue ball and your player will....thus, there will be times your players cue ball will deflect in BOTH directions and mine will ALWAYS deflect in the same direction...this is a key component of consistency in ball pocketing at the Championship level.....at least from my experience

Also, I'm making a video explaining the entire TOI Technique. It's not something that can be explained easily, this is my 1800th post concerning TOI and the 3 Part Pocket System. The whole technique blends SHOT SPEED - SHOT ANGLE - TIP TARGET (on Cue Ball) into one system of play. This is NOT just an aiming system or a better way to approach ball pocketing. It's a complete playing technique that I've used for many, many, years.

 

[CJ Wiley]

the pro will know why they miss, adjust quickly and play well from that point forward

Thank you. That makes much more sense than some of what I've read so far.

Would I be right to assume you will be aiming into the portion of the pocket on the "starting side" of the throw? I.E. if you're using right of center, thus throwing the object ball to the left, you would aim for the far right side of the pocket....so if you throw the ball where you want, you hit the intended part of the pocket, but if you throw the ball too much you will still hit the pocket on the "wider" side?

This is correct, you basically described the 3 Part Pocket System. This isn't new to the champion players, however it's new to many that haven't reached that level.

The other part of TOI has to do with what you said earlier "no human can hit the center of the cue ball consistently" (I paraphrase) ....this is why there's a need to favor one side of the cue ball, so you don't unintentionally hit both sides and not get the feedback you need to adjust for shot errors.

Face it, we all make errors, however, the difference between the amateur and the pro is - the pro will know why they miss, adjust quickly and play well from that point forward.

 

[Tramp Steamer]

I think center-ball is magic. It's magic everytime I hit it. :smile:

 

[madmiller]

Question for C.J.
Actually I am seeking your expertise and experience. In this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MMKH7xHqYWA
Does Stalev use T.O.I.?
His position play seems so perfect and the ball floats where he wants it.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Not really, he plays both sides of the cue ball.

Question for C.J.
Actually I am seeking your expertise and experience. In this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MMKH7xHqYWA
Does Stalev use T.O.I.?
His position play seems so perfect and the ball floats where he wants it.

Not really, he plays both sides of the cue ball. He would perform better if he did though. I could coach him for a week and his game would go up a ball, maybe two. He certainly has the talent, just doesn't understand how important it is to "master" that one side of the cue ball. IMHO

I remember him from years ago and he made some impact and then never gained any momentum. He played with all the same pros I played against. He just never hit the level of Efren, and Bustemante....they have mastered their shot.

 

[cookie man]

I've never said it "doesn't work" - that's the same untruth you previously told about my comments regarding CTE. I've only said it doesn't help in the ways that some say it does.


pj
chgo

Same as saying it doesn't work, only in your roundabout way.

P.S. I think we are typing the same language.