Centerball...haters gonna hate

[midnightpulp]

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=4107455&postcount=18

Willie's advice is correct for 14.1 and also snooker games where the creation of angles isn't necessary 99% of the time since you have multiple balls you can play position for.

But if you plan on reaching above a B level in the rotation games, you need to learn English as much as you do centerball/vertical axis, because you'll often find yourself in situations where the natural angle is blocked.

The Filipinos are raised on full rack rotation, which requires a mastery of English (especially inside English) and they've been the most dominant force in the rotation games for the last 2 or 3 decades. They also play in humid conditions, and I can tell you from playing in a San Bernardino, CA garage for the past 25 years, that running English is pretty much required for a lot of shots, since vertical axis shots tend to stick and lose speed very quickly. So it's either: Increase power on the shot, which compromises accuracy and control, or use some English and keep power on the shot below medium.

But like others have said, you should look to use the vertical axis before you use English, and basing your game around the vertical axis is easier than ever before with the advent of Simonis and better rails, but all the greats can shoot with English as accurately as they can using the vertical axis.

 

[hang-the-9]

Ever since I've been playing pool most of the instructional material states that you should try to play shape so that you can hit centerball on every shot and float into position.

What's so great about hitting centerball? Is it just that you can see the tangent line easily? Anyone that has been playing this game for a while can just as easily see the follow line and draw line of the cue ball to predict it's path so that point is moot.

I think hitting centerball makes you more likely to miss the shot. If you try to hit centerball and miss by half a tip to the left or right you are throwing the shit out of the ball. And if you hit centerball on a 20 - 30 degree cut shot you are maximizing the cut induced throw effects which makes aiming more difficult.

I think Tor Lowry started the whole centerball craze and I just don't see what all the hype is about.

Playing position for you to use follow or draw seems much more effective.

So why does everyone like centerball so much?

Follow and Draw are both centerball shots, left/right spin is not. I'm sure someone already posted that though. I've never heard anyone say that "try to hit centerball" on most shots meant exactly the center of the ball. It means try not to use side spin so you don't end up with deflection/swerve/masse to throw off your aim.

 

[bbb]

Ever since I've been playing pool most of the instructional material states that you should try to play shape so that you can hit centerball on every shot and float into position.

What's so great about hitting centerball? Is it just that you can see the tangent line easily? Anyone that has been playing this game for a while can just as easily see the follow line and draw line of the cue ball to predict it's path so that point is moot.

I think hitting centerball makes you more likely to miss the shot. If you try to hit centerball and miss by half a tip to the left or right you are throwing the shit out of the ball. And if you hit centerball on a 20 - 30 degree cut shot you are maximizing the cut induced throw effects which makes aiming more difficult.

I think Tor Lowry started the whole centerball craze and I just don't see what all the hype is about.

Playing position for you to use follow or draw seems much more effective.

So why does everyone like centerball so much?

my belief is center ball teaching has to do with vertical axis cue tip position

ie NO SIDE SPIN
so follow and draw are a part of it
therefore no cueball squirt involved to complicate things
not stun every shot
it is an excellent way to learn the cue ball
im not against english but but learning to control the cue ball by pllacement on the vertical axis is a great thing to know
jmho
icbw
sorry i havent read any responces to your posts

 

[Straightpool_99]

I've posted on this topic many times before, and I don't know what can be said that hasn't allready been said millions of times. Instead I ask that you watch Reyes, Strickland, Van Boening play. Really watch the cue ball. Are they using center only? If you answer yes to this question, you are blind and should find a different hobby.

Saying you should only use (vertical line) center ball is the same as postulating that the shortest path between two points on the map is a straight line, thus everyone should follow the straight line to any destination...I sure am glad I didn't have pool instructors as officers in the army, otherwise I would have surely been lead straight off a cliff, into a swamp or a mine field...

Pool and snooker are very different games, even if some of the princliples of play are similar, the position routes are VERY different. I've talked about this before as well, so I won't go into detail on the subject. I'll just say that anyone who thinks that position play is done the same way in these games is not paying attention. The shots are different, the cloth is different, the cushions are different, the cues are different, the balls are different, heck the table is even at a different height (not relevant here, just thought I'd mention it).

 

[ENGLISH!]

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

 

[bbb]

Context is everything. On occasion, people do literally mean the center of the cue ball when they say center ball, but when talking about "playing near center ball" or that "you should play center ball as much as possible" as everyone else has already pointed out they are almost always talking about the center vertical axis of the cue ball (i.e. no left or right english but anything top to bottom is included).

Based on this thread and many of your other posts you appear to be fairly new to pool and probably not very good and certainly not very knowledgeable. No biggie, we were all there once. The thing is though I have noticed that you like to argue with long standing accepted definitions and understandings (like the above), and with science, and with all kinds of other things in your various posts and threads.

As someone who is learning it is certainly healthy to question things. It can even be healthy to push back just a little bit or to play devil's advocate instead of just accepting things without thought or proof. But to vehemently argue things which you have little knowledge about or experience with (against those who do no less) is just asinine. I think you would be better served in your learning process with a little more of asking questions, a little more of asking for explanations, a little more of listening, and a little less of vehemently arguing and disputing everything.

what he said....

 

[victorl]

A little late to the discussion, but would just like to add something that someone explained to me once: your center ball is like the main dish and english is the spice you add on after to make everything come together. Without the spice, the dish would be bland but edible, but without the main dish, you've got nothing.

 

[midnightpulp]

I've posted on this topic many times before, and I don't know what can be said that hasn't allready been said millions of times. Instead I ask that you watch Reyes, Strickland, Van Boening play. Really watch the cue ball. Are they using center only? If you answer yes to this question, you are blind and should find a different hobby.

Saying you should only use (vertical line) center ball is the same as postulating that the shortest path between two points on the map is a straight line, thus everyone should follow the straight line to any destination...I sure am glad I didn't have pool instructors as officers in the army, otherwise I would have surely been lead straight off a cliff, into a swamp or a mine field...

Pool and snooker are very different games, even if some of the pricliples of play are similar, the position routes are VERY different. I've talked about this before as well, so I won't go into detail on the subject. I'll just say that anyone who thinks that position play is done the same way in these games is not paying attention. The shots are different, the cloth is different, the cushions are different, the cues are different, the balls are different, heck the table is even at a different height (not relevant here, just thought I'd mention it).

Tap, tap, tap.

I remember when I would watch Reyes, and Buddy Hall or Steve Mizerak, would draw his position route on the telestrator using the natural angle, which would actually be a longer route than what Reyes would wind up doing, usually using Inside English to come straight up and down rather than around 2 rails using the natural tangent.

It's also much easier to use outside-follow (which basically replicates the end location as if you hit the ball dead center or a touch above) to get from one end of the table to other for certain shots (think of the shot Tom Cruise scratched on against Grady Seasons in TCOM) than to slam the cue ball in and drive it down table using center.

When you can avoid using English, it's a good rule of thumb to do so, but you won't get out of many tough outs if you don't have command over using it.

 

[pt109]

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Hmmmm...a guy named ENGLISH approving a post about NOT hitting center ball...
...who would've thunk?

 

[fan-tum]

I'd give my left nut if I could hit centerball most of the times I tried. But with my flawed stroke, I'm hitting to the right of center.

 

[Jimbojim]

As much as people say you could play the game without using any left or right english, you can play the game without using center ball exclusively. I have never played a rack without using sidespin and thats not because of lack of position. I don't want to sound arrogant because I'm no pro yet but I'm not a beginner either but I can guarantee you that using sidespin gives you plenty more option and control over your cueball path.

I'm not saying to put side spin on every shot but adjust for every shot. This conversation makes me laugh because I realize that people who says they play only in the vertical axis are probably the same people that says that they could be handed any cue and still be able to play at their highest level right of the bat...which is complete bull (minus some exceptional players who in fact can).

A player who masters the side spin along with pocketing and position will outplay a player who only plays on the vertical axis EVERY TIME!

 

[His Boy Elroy]

centerball includes stop, follow, and draw, basically just the vertical axis. once you start deviating to either side, you start having to compensate for throw, deflection, etc. I try not to use more than maybe 1/2 tip to 1 tip of side unless absolutely necessary.

You speak of having to compensate for throw, deflection, etc. as if such a compensation is burdensome. If an attmpt at a center ball hit results in a very slightly crooked stroke, ( I have no problem hitting the verticle axis consistently) deflection and or swerve will result. I simply never think about throw. It must be that I unconsciously deal with it.
So instead of seeing deflection and throw as enemies to be feared, embrace them as friends. Deliberately deflect the CB using a VERY small amount of spin. If it's hit with enough speed, swerve does not come into play. Then practice deliberately hitting the CB slowly and swerving it. Control deflection and swerve yourself instead of letting ideflection and swerve control you. It only makes sense!

 

[Neil]

As much as people say you could play the game without using any left or right english, you can play the game without using center ball exclusively. I have never played a rack without using sidespin and thats not because of lack of position. I don't want to sound arrogant because I'm no pro yet but I'm not a beginner either but I can guarantee you that using sidespin gives you plenty more option and control over your cueball path.

I'm not saying to put side spin on every shot but adjust for every shot. This conversation makes me laugh because I realize that people who says they play only in the vertical axis are probably the same people that says that they could be handed any cue and still be able to play at their highest level right of the bat...which is complete bull (minus some exceptional players who in fact can).

A player who masters the side spin along with pocketing and position will outplay a player who only plays on the vertical axis EVERY TIME!

Who is saying they only use center ball on every shot??

 

[Farhan]

what he said....

+1. Glad someone said it.

 

[ENGLISH!]

You speak of having to compensate for throw, deflection, etc. as if such a compensation is burdensome. If an attmpt at a center ball hit results in a very slightly crooked stroke, ( I have no problem hitting the verticle axis consistently) deflection and or swerve will result. I simply never think about throw. It must be that I unconsciously deal with it.
So instead of seeing deflection and throw as enemies to be feared, embrace them as friends. Deliberately deflect the CB using a VERY small amount of spin. If it's hit with enough speed, swerve does not come into play. Then practice deliberately hitting the CB slowly and swerving it. Control deflection and swerve yourself instead of letting ideflection and swerve control you. It only makes sense!

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

 

[SmoothStroke]

Playing center cue ball is overrated, yet you may have to strike center when needed, RARELY.
Beginners should start at center, after that they should learn how to play pool.

Learn to play inside cue ball and your worries are over.

I threw the tangent line out the window a long time ago. The line is just a constant to glance at, a blink.
Send the cue ball where you want, strike it with precision and speed of stroke to place it in the line as chosen.
You dictate the cue ball, own it, see the line you want and send it. (Tip Accuracy) (Aim Accuracy)

Strike the cue ball with accuracy, anywhere you want on any shot, it shouldn’t matter one bit.
Be the complete player, why be anything less?

Watch any match where the player is shooting the 9 or 10 ball in a bottom pocket. Unless they are straight they always use outside English, rarely to never do they use center ball. On steep or very wide angles they go inside the cue ball more, a hair right or left, not center ball.

The best punch players play just inside left or right, most don't know what they do.
With that being said, you still need to know how to hit center.
You don't know what you don't know until you know it.

Sincerely: SS

 

[ENGLISH!]

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

 

[ElCorazonFrio]

Front or back in fossball or did you play both as in singles?

Both, depending on the partner and both in singles. My passing from front left a bit to be desired, but my pull was extremely effective from front or back. My no-set pull was very versatile. When I'd have the right partner up front we'd pass from goal to forward very well.

My favorite moment was stuffing the #3 rated player in the world at the time for match point when he switched with his partner.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Both, depending on the partner and both in singles. My passing from front left a bit to be desired, but my pull was extremely effective from front or back. My no-set pull was very versatile. When I'd have the right partner up front we'd pass from goal to forward very well.

My favorite moment was stuffing the #3 rated player in the world at the time for match point when he switched with his partner.

That sounds impressive.

I was not that much of a player as my left hand was terrible but my right hand push was pretty good as I could push shoot for the far side & circle around & cut it back to the near side.

So... did you shoot every shot on goal straight on or did you hit the side of the ball & deflect some in on an angle?

 

[george canon]

At the highest levels of play, two examples to study would be Allison Fisher and Buddy Hall, they are using mostly center ball, so did Mosconi and Greenleaf, who call this the golden angle, where you played to a little angle to angle, then you could slide from shot to shot, using no English, and eliminate throw and deflection. That is pool, played at the highest level, keeping it simple. KISS.

Stupid is watching Keith McCreedy years ago, juicing and dancing the cue ball all over the place, which is cool and impressive, but what did he ever win, or do, other than get drunk and lose? Earl has become too aggressive with English, shooting too hard, and now he cant beat a rug.