Centerball...haters gonna hate

[ENGLISH!]

I'll give you a famous one: Danny Diliberto. He's knowledgable and skilled enough to make me think twice about my positon. I will say that he is more extreme in his views than most others, though.

There is also a vagueness in many peoples positon that leaves their exact opinions open to interpretation. "Unless necessesary" is very, very vague. Those exact words makes me think that english is an evil that should be avoided, that may just be me though. In reality we are all at a point along the scale. I will say that I think I am way out to the side compared to many on this forum. If I'm not, I could not be happier. It would mean that people are more reasonable than I thought.

I think the thing is that You are by no means on your own. I would be interested to know the numbers here on AZB that fall into what skill level.

That said, I think subjects that are interesting to lower level players are not so much to higher level players. Hence, I would think that many more individuals that play at a lower level post on subjects that fewer high level players would.

So, the higher level players 'opinions' & advice gets bombarded by a high number of lesser players when they don't agree or have never heard of that before or have been told otherwise by a someone you is supposed to know.

IMHO, there are too many rather closed minds here on AZB & too many that take too much as gospel when some say things that to be quite honest are simply not correct.

Then the competitive nature of a pool player takes over & spills over into what should be a discussion between comrades becomes a war of words & then one side starts with insults when things start to not go their way.

I was given what I consider some very good advice by Fran Crimi not too long after I 'joined' AZB & was being 'attacked'. She told me to remember that there are thousands out there that only read & do not post & that the attackers are only a small sampling though probably the most vocal. In other words, try to ignore the 'attacker' & keep the many, many readers in mind.

I'm not too good at ignoring, especially things that are not true, like lies, distortions, twisting of words, deception, traps, being disingenuous, hidden agendas, etc. But, I have done rather well remembering that there are many, many out there that just read.

IMO, You are an asset to the the pool community & to AZB. I for one am glad you chose to stay around. There might be hundreds if not thousands on AZB in the silent majority that agree with much, if not all, that you have to say.

Best 2 Ya.

 

[Drop The Rock]

Okay heres what really ****s me up about all of this. I don't use BHE or really compensate or any of that other stuff mentally. I dont pivot or do anything else like that... I get down and shoot in the hole with whatever ever english (or lack there of) I'm shooting with. So while I agree that shooting a shot with 2 tips of inside can lead to accuracy difficulty, I disagree with the sentiment that use of English is a guarantee for inaccuracy.

I do know that you would be hard pressed to find a one pocket player who didn't use a fair amount of english. I also know that pros use outside more often than not in order to avoid a skid. Its also useful to hold the cueball.

I also understand the sentiment that noobs shouldn't learn to master english until they master centerball and that is something I do firmly agree with because I had to go back and work on fundamentals I could have gotten down early on.

 

[Straightpool_99]

I think the thing is that You are by no means on your own. I would be interested to know the numbers here on AZB that fall into what skill level.

That said, I think subjects that are interesting to lower level players are not so much to higher level players. Hence, I would think that many more individuals that play at a lower level post on subjects that fewer high level players would.

So, the higher level players 'opinions' & advice gets bombarded by a high number of lesser players when they don't agree or have never heard of that before or have been told otherwise by a someone you is supposed to know.

IMHO, there are too many rather closed minds here on AZB & too many that take too much as gospel when some say things that to be quite honest are simply not correct.

Then the competitive nature of a pool player takes over & spills over into what should be a discussion between comrades becomes a war of words & then one side starts with insults when things start to not go their way.

I was given what I consider some very good advice by Fran Crimi not too long after I 'joined' AZB & was being 'attacked'. She told me to remember that there are thousands out there that only read & do not post & that the attackers are only a small sampling though probably the most vocal. In other words, try to ignore the 'attacker' & keep the many, many readers in mind.

I'm not too good at ignoring, especially things that are not true, like lies, distortions, twisting of words, deception, traps, being disingenuous, hidden agendas, etc. But, I have done rather well remembering that there are many, many out there that just read.

You are an asset to the the pool community & to AZB. I for one am glad you chose to stay around. There be hundreds if not thousands on AZB in the silent majority that agree with much if not all that you have to say.

Best 2 Ya.

Thank you for your kind words. I know that there are many players on this forum that are way better than me, and probably many that are worse. While I do think the opinion of high level players, such as Jaden, Bartram (who are both in a completely different league than hacks like me) etc should carry a lot of weight, I do not think that the opinions of lower level players should be automatically dismissed.

I also think a lot of the advice is being given with the lower level players in mind. There are thousands of videotapes with basic fundamentals and how to draw the ball. I can't seem to remember very many that go into details on some of things discussed here or some other advanced topics that would be interesting once you know how to play a stop shot. Those that do exist we can mostly thank Grady and The Beard for. I guess it makes sense to cater to the larger crowd, even when there is no money involved.

People attacking you is a fact of life, and I've made my peace with it. As long as it is merely ridiculing my opinions, I don't take it too personally any more, and factual criticism should never be taken as an insult, but an opportunity to revise ones' stance. I wouldn't want to be the victim of a character assasination like the one dealt to Mr. Wong in a recent thread, though, which is why I prefer the anonymous forum life.

 

[Neil]

I think the thing is that You are by no means on your own. I would be interested to know the numbers here on AZB that fall into what skill level.

That said, I think subjects that are interesting to lower level players are not so much to higher level players. Hence, I would think that many more individuals that play at a lower level post on subjects that fewer high level players would.

So, the higher level players 'opinions' & advice gets bombarded by a high number of lesser players when they don't agree or have never heard of that before or have been told otherwise by a someone you is supposed to know.

IMHO, there are too many rather closed minds here on AZB & too many that take too much as gospel when some say things that to be quite honest are simply not correct.

Then the competitive nature of a pool player takes over & spills over into what should be a discussion between comrades becomes a war of words & then one side starts with insults when things start to not go their way.

I was given what I consider some very good advice by Fran Crimi not too long after I 'joined' AZB & was being 'attacked'. She told me to remember that there are thousands out there that only read & do not post & that the attackers are only a small sampling though probably the most vocal. In other words, try to ignore the 'attacker' & keep the many, many readers in mind.

I'm not too good at ignoring, especially things that are not true, like lies, distortions, twisting of words, deception, traps, being disingenuous, hidden agendas, etc. But, I have done rather well remembering that there are many, many out there that just read.

IMO, You are an asset to the the pool community & to AZB. I for one am glad you chose to stay around. There might be hundreds if not thousands on AZB in the silent majority that agree with much, if not all, that you have to say.

Best 2 Ya.

Since you like to go against what so many others state, just what is your level of play? You ask it of others, show yours. Take Dr. Dave's Billiard University test for starters. Not fair asking others to do what you yourself won't do, despite being asked to for years on here. You pontificate about almost every subject, but show no skill level yourself. You want to know skill levels on here? Start with yours.

For me, mine have been posted many times on here. And have taken most of the skill tests that have been put on here, and videos. I'm not ashamed to show where I am coming from when I state something on here. How about you?

 

[Spimp13]

Since you like to go against what so many others state, just what is your level of play? You ask it of others, show yours. Take Dr. Dave's Billiard University test for starters. Not fair asking others to do what you yourself won't do, despite being asked to for years on here. You pontificate about almost every subject, but show no skill level yourself. You want to know skill levels on here? Start with yours.

For me, mine have been posted many times on here. And have taken most of the skill tests that have been put on here, and videos. I'm not ashamed to show where I am coming from when I state something on here. How about you?

I remember taking that test a while back when I wasn't playing much at all (just took it for fun). I got like a 129 and felt I could have scored decently higher had I been training and in stroke.

I liked that it covered a wide area of skill concepts with the game. Once I start playing again I will have to re take it and post the results now that it is a sticky on here. There are a few skill shots toward the end which can be humbling for sure. I definitely recommend for people to give the test a try.

 

[FranCrimi]

Using side spin decreases pocketing accuracy for anybody whenever it's used - because it adds an estimated adjustment for squirt and swerve that doesn't exist without it. There's simply no escaping that simple fact. Denying it is the same as saying you can shoot an arrow or a rifle with the same (or better?!) accuracy with or without a crosswind.

That doesn't mean it should never be used - it doesn't even mean it shouldn't be used on most shots. But it does mean the reduced pocketing accuracy should be taken into account when deciding whether or how much to use.

pj
chgo

I think the flaw in your argument is that you're not taking the skill and experience of the player into consideration.

Excluding the shots that would be difficult with or without side spin, a high level player would not consider it more difficult to shoot most shots with side spin, even though there are more variables to consider -- and they easily prove it with their success rates.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I think the flaw in your argument is that you're not taking the skill and experience of the player into consideration.

Excluding the shots that would be difficult with or without side spin, a high level player would not consider it more difficult to shoot most shots with side spin, even though there are more variables to consider -- and they easily prove it with their success rates.

The difference in accuracy/consistency for high level players is much smaller, but it still exists. You're a high level player - given a shot with no pocketing or positional advantage either way, would you choose to shoot it with or without side spin?

pj
chgo

 

[ENGLISH!]

Since you like to go against what so many others state, just what is your level of play? You ask it of others, show yours. I only occasionally & rather rarely ask it of others to get an idea of where they are when I have something in mind. Take Dr. Dave's Billiard University test for starters. Not fair asking others to do what you yourself won't do, despite being asked to for years on here. I have NEVER asked anyone to take Dr. Dave's tests or any test. You pontificate about almost every subject, but show no skill level yourself. You want to know skill levels on here? It seems that You might really have reading comprehension issues or perhaps other more serious issues. I did not say that I want to know any individual playing levels. I said that I would be interested in the relative numbers regarding different levels of play here on AZB. Start with yours.

For me, mine have been posted many times on here. And have taken most of the skill tests that have been put on here, and videos. I'm not ashamed to show where I am coming from when I state something on here. How about you?

Stalker Alert!

You need to go back to Psychology class. I dare you to step over that stick. I dare you to knock that off my shoulder.

This is a fairly good thread. Why don't you try to NOT derail it with your foolish childish trolling. How old are you? I think old enough to show at least a bit more rational maturity.

If I wanted to do the drills of Dr. Dave's 'Test' I would have already done them.

How many PBIA Instructors have done them? Not that that matters, I'm just showing the foolish & trolling nature of this post of yours.

I'm not playing your games to derail this thread. So... if you come back AT me, all you will get is 'Talk to the Hand!'

You have Good Day.

 

[Neil]

Stalker Alert!

You need to go back to Psychology class. I dare you to step over that stick. I dare you to knock that off my shoulder.

This is a fairly good thread. Why don't you try to NOT derail it with your foolish childish trolling.

If I wanted to do the drills of Dr. Dave's 'Test' I would have already done them.

How many PBIA Instructors have done them? Not that that matters, I'm just showing how foolish & trolling nature of this post of yours is.

I'm not playing your games to derail this thread so if you come back AT me, all you will get is 'Talk to the Hand!'

You have Good Day.

Yeah, Rick, everyone that ever asks you to back up your statements is a stalker and a troll. Gee, what a surprise that you won't and can't back up your statement. The only reason you won't take any test on here is because then everyone will see you for what you really are.

All I'm saying is, you made the statement, now you want to weasel out of it as usual by calling me names. Personally, I don't feel that current playing ability is a requirement to teaching. But you do, so again, let's see your ability or total lack thereof. Which is it??

Also, I didn't derail anything. I simply responded to YOUR statement. So, if there is a de-railing, YOU derailed it in your feeble attempt to discredit others statements that backfired big time on you.

edit: Rick, as far as the PBIA instructors go, 1. They are certified instructors, therefore, professionals. Who are you to question them? 2. They take test to become certified. Hence the designation behind their title of Recognized, Certified, Advanced, and Master. Look them up some time to see what they mean if you don't know. And yes, many years ago I had one of those titles too.

 

[FranCrimi]

The difference in accuracy/consistency for high level players is much smaller, but it still exists. You're a high level player - given a shot with no pocketing or positional advantage either way, would you choose to shoot it with or without side spin?

pj
chgo

Ah.... but you're forgetting another important variable. In addition to skill level, the preferences of the player will often dictate their success rate.

A spin player can't just turn it on and off like a light switch. The same goes for a punch player. Both types of players play best when they perform within a certain range.

However, that's not to say that spin players can't punch shots and punch players can't spin balls. They can when they have to, and they do, but it's not within their comfort zones.

So to answer your question, I'm a spin player, so most likely I will spin a shot, even when I can get the cb to the same place without spin --- and my success rate would probably be higher than if I punched the ball.

 

[jburkm002]

Would someones aiming line be the same playing 2 tips of sidespin, for every shot distance, every table, every cue ball, low humidity vs high humidity, every cloth etc. Basically asking if 2 tips of side spins will travel the same path no matter what?

 

[Neil]

Would someones aiming line be the same playing 2 tips of sidespin, for every shot distance, every table, every cue ball, low humidity vs high humidity, every cloth etc. Basically asking if 2 tips of side spins will travel the same path no matter what?

No, it won't.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Yeah, Rick, everyone that ever asks you to back up your statements is a stalker and a troll. Gee, what a surprise that you won't and can't back up your statement. The only reason you won't take any test on here is because then everyone will see you for what you really are.

All I'm saying is, you made the statement, now you want to weasel out of it as usual by calling me names. Personally, I don't feel that current playing ability is a requirement to teaching. But you do, so again, let's see your ability or total lack thereof. Which is it??

Also, I didn't derail anything. I simply responded to YOUR statement. So, if there is a de-railing, YOU derailed it in your feeble attempt to discredit others statements that backfired big time on you.

edit: Rick, as far as the PBIA instructors go, 1. They are certified instructors, therefore, professionals. Who are you to question them? 2. They take test to become certified. Hence the designation behind their title of Recognized, Certified, Advanced, and Master. Look them up some time to see what they mean if you don't know. And yes, many years ago I had one of those titles too.

There are more false statements & false suppositions in there than Carter has oats. Are you really that blind to the truth?

So... Talk to the Hand!

I would ask a question of you but you would almost certainly take it wrong or out of context as you do most things.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Ah.... but you're forgetting another important variable. In addition to skill level, the preferences of the player will often dictate their success rate.

A spin player can't just turn it on and off like a light switch. The same goes for a punch player. Both types of players play best when they perform within a certain range.

However, that's not to say that spin players can't punch shots and punch players can't spin balls. They can when they have to, and they do, but it's not within their comfort zones.

So to answer your question, I'm a spin player, so most likely I will spin a shot, even when I can get the cb to the same place without spin --- and my success rate would probably be higher than if I punched the ball.

Hi Fran,

The things of which you speak are exactly what I PMd Straightpool_99 last night. Some just seem to not be able to understand certain things. I'm not talking about 99.

It's almost like someone that read a book about throwing a curve ball & they then go to a game to watch one of the best curve ball pitchers in the game & they will say, 'He's not doing it right.'.

You Stay & Shoot Well.

 

[Drop The Rock]

Ah.... but you're forgetting another important variable. In addition to skill level, the preferences of the player will often dictate their success rate.

A spin player can't just turn it on and off like a light switch. The same goes for a punch player. Both types of players play best when they perform within a certain range.

However, that's not to say that spin players can't punch shots and punch players can't spin balls. They can when they have to, and they do, but it's not within their comfort zones.

So to answer your question, I'm a spin player, so most likely I will spin a shot, even when I can get the cb to the same place without spin --- and my success rate would probably be higher than if I punched the ball.

+9000!

This perfectly describes what preference is about and how one is no more correct or proper than the other! I know a guy who shoots as straight as a pro in low pressure and when he doesnt have to use spin, but he can't play shape very well because he is too afraid to spin his rock.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I apologize I did not read all the posts so I don't know if this has already been stated:

IMO, I believe advocating center axis shooting as much as possible is not the right way to play, and is not good advice. This type of advice to me, implies shying away from using side spin, unless absolutely necessary, and basically limiting the player's skill set.

To me, the shot at hand should dictate how exactly to strike the ball. The player, in order to be a top player, must know EVERY single possible way to strike the ball, and be able to execute it. You look at Efren, he can do anything he wants on the table. Hard shots with center ball, drag shots with spin, everything in between.

Thus, the player, must practice every variation of striking the CB (spin, speed, OB distance, elevation, throw angles, squirt angles, etc) in order to play well. They should not limit their game play, or practice play to center axis. That would artificially limit the player!!!

I'm reminded of a great post by McCready from about 10 years ago on this forum. It went something like this (paraphrasing), when one poster asked him for advice on playing the game: You must practice all your englishes and speeds on all the shots. To know how the balls react in every situation.

These are my opinions from a B player Carry on

 

[Neil]

I apologize I did not read all the posts so I don't know if this has already been stated:

IMO, I believe advocating center axis shooting as much as possible is not the right way to play, and is not good advice. This type of advice to me, implies shying away from using side spin, unless absolutely necessary, and basically limiting the player's skill set.

To me, the shot at hand should dictate how exactly to strike the ball. The player, in order to be a top player, must know EVERY single possible way to strike the ball, and be able to execute it. You look at Efren, he can do anything he wants on the table. Hard shots with center ball, drag shots with spin, everything in between.

Thus, the player, must practice every variation of striking the CB (spin, speed, OB distance, elevation, throw angles, squirt angles, etc) in order to play well. They should not limit their game play, or practice play to center axis. That would artificially limit the player!!!

I'm reminded of a great post by McCready from about 10 years ago on this forum. It went something like this (paraphrasing), when one poster asked him for advice on playing the game: You must practice all your englishes and speeds on all the shots. To know how the balls react in every situation.

These are my opinions from a B player Carry on

You are a level headed guy, so I will ask you to explain your post a little. You started out fine, with some saying less english is better. To use english when necessary. But then you go on to say that this is limiting the player. I don't understand why you and others come to that conclusion.

Then you state that the shot at hand should dictate how to hit the ball, and that to be a top player, one must be able to hit anywhere on the cb. I totally agree with that, and to be fair, no one has said otherwise except those against using center ball primarily. How do you come to the conclusion that just because someone advocates center ball, that they also can't use english when necessary or desired??

Your next paragraph starts out great in that one should practice hitting all areas of the cb. But, then again, you go on to say that those that primarily use the center axis tend to not practice or use english, and limit their abilities. Yet, you have no basis to make that claim at all. Why do you feel that those that choose to use the center axis primarily, can't use english? That makes no more sense than saying that someone that uses english can't use center ball, and thereby can't even execute a simple stop shot!

To what Keith said in your last part, I and everyone else totally agree with him. I don't see where you and others think we don't.

I will say though, that those that are so against using as little english as possible, most likely have not really practiced diligently with it, and don't understand just how much is possible with the cb staying on the vertical axis.

The reason less english is better, is simply because less can go wrong with the shot. Far too many play with near max english on every shot. That is definitely the wrong way to play the game, and gets them in all kinds of trouble. One should only use as much english as is necessary to accomplish the intended purpose of the shot.

Even a half tip of english, which is only 1 1/2 mm. (half the size of the red circle on a red circle cb) is considered staying near the vertical axis. Trouble is, very few even practice enough to be able to reliably hit 1/2 and are actually often 3-5 mm off of where they think they hit. And, far too many don't have a good enough stroke to get good action with 1/4 to 1/2 tip of english, so they have to hit farther out to get the action they need.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

You are a level headed guy, so I will ask you to explain your post a little. You started out fine, with some saying less english is better. To use english when necessary. But then you go on to say that this is limiting the player. I don't understand why you and others come to that conclusion.

Then you state that the shot at hand should dictate how to hit the ball, and that to be a top player, one must be able to hit anywhere on the cb. I totally agree with that, and to be fair, no one has said otherwise except those against using center ball primarily. How do you come to the conclusion that just because someone advocates center ball, that they also can't use english when necessary or desired??

Your next paragraph starts out great in that one should practice hitting all areas of the cb. But, then again, you go on to say that those that primarily use the center axis tend to not practice or use english, and limit their abilities. Yet, you have no basis to make that claim at all. Why do you feel that those that choose to use the center axis primarily, can't use english? That makes no more sense than saying that someone that uses english can't use center ball, and thereby can't even execute a simple stop shot!

To what Keith said in your last part, I and everyone else totally agree with him. I don't see where you and others think we don't.

I will say though, that those that are so against using as little english as possible, most likely have not really practiced diligently with it, and don't understand just how much is possible with the cb staying on the vertical axis.

The reason less english is better, is simply because less can go wrong with the shot. Far too many play with near max english on every shot. That is definitely the wrong way to play the game, and gets them in all kinds of trouble. One should only use as much english as is necessary to accomplish the intended purpose of the shot.

Even a half tip of english, which is only 1 1/2 mm. (half the size of the red circle on a red circle cb) is considered staying near the vertical axis. Trouble is, very few even practice enough to be able to reliably hit 1/2 and are actually often 3-5 mm off of where they think they hit. And, far too many don't have a good enough stroke to get good action with 1/4 to 1/2 tip of english, so they have to hit farther out to get the action they need.

I agree with all of this.

I also agree with the part in blue, but see the details a little differently. I think even a player with an inconsistent stroke gets "good action" for the spot he actually hits on the CB - but since he only hits what he wants a small percentage of the time his results are "fuzzy" - he has to hit farther out to center his "shot group" on the target.

pj
chgo

 

[Neil]

I agree with all of this.

I also agree with the part in blue, but see the details a little differently. I think even a player with an inconsistent stroke gets "good action" for the spot he actually hits on the CB - but since he only hits what he wants a small percentage of the time his results are "fuzzy" - he has to hit farther out to center his "shot group" on the target.

pj
chgo

Yes, but let me explain what I meant by not having a good stroke. Far too often, I see players decelerating on the way to the cb. They are looking at just hitting the cb, and as a result of that, they slow down on the way there.

Where this presents a problem, since the cb doesn't know the difference, is in the speed of the hit. When hit slower than one actually should be, due to slowing down the cue, one will not get the proper spin on the ball. They then think they have to hit farther out to get the same amount of spin they should have been getting nearer the center axis.

As you know, this is why we advocate follow through, and accelerating through the cb. Even though one actually does nothing to the cb, and the other is not even possible. Simply to at least maintain constant desired speed all the way to the cb.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Yes, but let me explain what I meant by not having a good stroke. Far too often, I see players decelerating on the way to the cb. They are looking at just hitting the cb, and as a result of that, they slow down on the way there.

Where this presents a problem, since the cb doesn't know the difference, is in the speed of the hit. When hit slower than one actually should be, due to slowing down the cue, one will not get the proper spin on the ball. They then think they have to hit farther out to get the same amount of spin they should have been getting nearer the center axis.

As you know, this is why we advocate follow through, and accelerating through the cb. Even though one actually does nothing to the cb, and the other is not even possible. Simply to at least maintain constant desired speed all the way to the cb.

And straightness - braking the stroke can also pull it offline.

I think players know how imprecise their stroke is, at least subconsciously. I've watched developing players try to hit the CB low for draw but hit it dead center or just below time after time. Their subconscious knows that their tip placement is unpredictable, so if they actually stroke low they'll miscue too often - so it overrides the command and steers the stroke higher.

pj <- who's in charge here?
chgo