Centerball in 9 ball (?)

[whitewolf]

Just read Billiards Digest and saw where Shawn Putman (I believe) went from using excessive english to centerball, resulting in much better play for him. Maybe this is because he used excessive and any change to something less radical could be the answer to his success. I don't know.

When I started playing I used centerball, top, bottom 90% of the time. It seems to have made decision making easy and once you get the hang of it, it ain't so bad, at least IMHO.

Then there is Earl who says that you have to spin the ball in 9 ball to be a world beater.

Then there was Kid Cole Dixon, the best 9 ball player EVER, who used mostly centerball, at least it appeared to me from watching on the sidelines.

Has anyone here tried shooting 9 ball mostly with centerball, and what do you think of using it full-time?

Thanks in advance, WW

 

[fxskater]

I have recently, in the last 6 months started using way more center ball. I used to use lots of english on just about every shot except a stop shot, now i just use centerball most the time and my game has picked up a fair amount. I think it has to do with controlling your shape. When you play centerball, there is a definite LINE the cueball follows, so all you have to do is control the speed. When you start using inside and outside english you bring another factor into play, judging the cueball off the rails, IN addition to speed. With running english into the rail, the cueball speeds up a little bit and changes the angle slightly, so now you have to adjust your SPEED and SHAPE LINE. With reverse english into the rail, you have to judge esactly how much the Ball is going Slow Up off the rail. It just takes 1 less thing out of the shot if you use centerball.

 

[recoveryjones]

Just read Billiards Digest and saw where Shawn Putman (I believe) went from using excessive english to centerball, resulting in much better play for him. Maybe this is because he used excessive and any change to something less radical could be the answer to his success. I don't know.

When I started playing I used centerball, top, bottom 90% of the time. It seems to have made decision making easy and once you get the hang of it, it ain't so bad, at least IMHO.

Then there is Earl who says that you have to spin the ball in 9 ball to be a world beater.

Then there was Kid Cole Dixon, the best 9 ball player EVER, who used mostly centerball, at least it appeared to me from watching on the sidelines.



Has anyone here tried shooting 9 ball mostly with centerball, and what do you think of using it full-time?

Thanks in advance, WW

Check my thread on "Speed Control" as the subject on side spin vs center ball hit was discussed there with lots of feedback.Also do a surch on"How much sidespin or "Sidespin" as I asked the pros Keith McCready, Sarah Rousey and Jennifer Baretta their opinions on this subject.

Basically what I found out from surveying people is a lot of different answers as it comes down to personal choice.Personally I think if there is a center ball route to the shape zone, it's much easier to make the pot without english. If your stroke is good usually 1/4 to 1/2 tip of english is all that's nessecary for the majority of shots.

Phil Capelle("Play your best nine ball" author) says the pro's only use sidespin 20% of the time. Most people,including pro's disagree with Phil's findings.RJ

 

[drivermaker]

Just read Billiards Digest and saw where Shawn Putman (I believe) went from using excessive english to centerball, resulting in much better play for him. Maybe this is because he used excessive and any change to something less radical could be the answer to his success. I don't know.

When I started playing I used centerball, top, bottom 90% of the time. It seems to have made decision making easy and once you get the hang of it, it ain't so bad, at least IMHO.

Then there is Earl who says that you have to spin the ball in 9 ball to be a world beater.

Then there was Kid Cole Dixon, the best 9 ball player EVER, who used mostly centerball, at least it appeared to me from watching on the sidelines.

Has anyone here tried shooting 9 ball mostly with centerball, and what do you think of using it full-time?

Thanks in advance, WW

There's can be quite a difference between striking "pure" centerball, being real close to centerball, or playing vertical center axis. If you play strict centerball, then you have to know and be able to execute different strokes in order to produce certain CB action to move around the table for 9 ball.

Playing vertical center brings in more draw and follow which makes it a little easier to move whitey backwards, forward, and to bounce it off the rails for position.

And being real close to centerball has you going about 1/2 tip around the clock of dead center without too many problems that are normally associated with greater offset. It might look like a player is hitting dead center everytime because that's where the setup and alignment starts out, but when starting the forward stroke all it takes is just a hair of backhand to alter the actual striking point on the CB to get some english and go undetected by someone watching.

In my opinion, all three of the above are much safer and consistent ways of playing than using extreme english, especially for anyone below the level of a top pro. But then, Putnam feels the same way for himself and he IS a top pro.

 

[sjm]

There is a tradeoff in play here. There are many shots where using english will enable you to deliver the cue ball with less speed and still attain the desired shape. That makes the pocket play looser.

 

[drivermaker]

There is a tradeoff in play here. There are many shots where using english will enable you to deliver the cue ball with less speed and still attain the desired shape. That makes the pocket play looser.

That is true...for most I think it's a matter of knowing when to use and when not to use. And "most" are using the hell out of it way to frequently.
Playing around the clock of center along with draw and follow will do everything a player needs to move the ball around with varying speeds.

 

[vapoolplayer]

That is true...for most I think it's a matter of knowing when to use and when not to use. And "most" are using the hell out of it way to frequently.
Playing around the clock of center along with draw and follow will do everything a player needs to move the ball around with varying speeds.

i agree here. its only a 9 foot table, a medium stroke, with 1/2 tip at the most of sidespin will get you anywhere you need.

i think people spend too much time practicing english instead of practicing their stroke fundamentals. people tell me all the time they can't get the action they want with a 1/2 tip, and i tell them they need to work on their stroke........simple as that.

staying within a 1/2 tip of center, as stated above, kills alot of other problems associated with sidespin before they even start.

VAP

 

[CaptainJR]

There have been a couple of threads on this subject recently. I replied in one that I was planning on giving it my best effort to use more center ball shots. When that didn't work I decided to make an effort to use as little spin as possible. That worked a little better. However, many shots to use less spin required me to use a firmer stoke to get where I wanted to be and firmer is always less accurate for me. So which is worse, using spin or shooting harder?

Using center ball sounds like such a great idea. So why didn't it work for me? I think there are two reasons.

1. I think it would take a complete change of game planning. - I'm use to playing position for spin shots on the second ball to setup the 3rd ball.

2. I'm not good enough yet. - I think getting position on the next ball so that you don't have to use spin when you shoot it requires much more accurate position.


In conclusion, I'm still going to try to be aware of when I can easily get away with less spin. I'm not going to try to make it my goal at this point.

 

[vapoolplayer]

There have been a couple of threads on this subject recently. I replied in one that I was planning on giving it my best effort to use more center ball shots. When that didn't work I decided to make an effort to use as little spin as possible. That worked a little better. However, many shots to use less spin required me to use a firmer stoke to get where I wanted to be and firmer is always less accurate for me. So which is worse, using spin or shooting harder?

Using center ball sounds like such a great idea. So why didn't it work for me? I think there are two reasons.

1. I think it would take a complete change of game planning. - I'm use to playing position for spin shots on the second ball to setup the 3rd ball.

2. I'm not good enough yet. - I think getting position on the next ball so that you don't have to use spin when you shoot it requires much more accurate position.


In conclusion, I'm still going to try to be aware of when I can easily get away with less spin. I'm not going to try to make it my goal at this point.

not trying to tell you what to do or anything.......but if you made it your goal you would force the rest of your game to step up to that level. might not see it for a few weeks or months, but it would definitely step your game up.

sounds like a common case of learning to run before learning to crawl.

VAP

 

[CaptainJR]

not trying to tell you what to do or anything.......but if you made it your goal you would force the rest of your game to step up to that level. might not see it for a few weeks or months, but it would definitely step your game up.

sounds like a common case of learning to run before learning to crawl.

VAP

i agree here. its only a 9 foot table, a medium stroke, with 1/2 tip at the most of sidespin will get you anywhere you need.

I really think it is an individual thing. To quote myself above. "So which is worse, using spin or shooting harder?" For me it is definitely shooting harder is worse. Take a cut shot into the corner where you have to go 3 or 4 rails for position. Are you going to hit it hard enough to force it to go 3 rails and maybe miss the shot or are you going to hit it softer with spin and let the spin take it 3 rails easily. The above quote that a 1/2 tip at most of sidespin will get you anywhere you need to be, just simply isn't true. People here could throw up dozens of instances that require more than that. Most of which involve having more than two balls on the table. I would agree with this if your on the 8 and nothing is in the way of getting on the nine. But if your on the two and there are four balls between the two and the three there is certainly a possibility you will need more than a half tip of english especially if the shot is tough enough that you don't want to shot to hard.

By the way, I already know how to walk. Using center ball is a must for someone who is still learning how to walk.

 

[vapoolplayer]

I really think it is an individual thing. To quote myself above. "So which is worse, using spin or shooting harder?" For me it is definitely shooting harder is worse. Take a cut shot into the corner where you have to go 3 or 4 rails for position. Are you going to hit it hard enough to force it to go 3 rails and maybe miss the shot or are you going to hit it softer with spin and let the spin take it 3 rails easily. The above quote that a 1/2 tip at most of sidespin will get you anywhere you need to be, just simply isn't true. People here could throw up dozens of instances that require more than that. Most of which involve having more than two balls on the table. I would agree with this if your on the 8 and nothing is in the way of getting on the nine. But if your on the two and there are four balls between the two and the three there is certainly a possibility you will need more than a half tip of english especially if the shot is tough enough that you don't want to shot to hard.

By the way, I already know how to walk. Using center ball is a must for someone who is still learning how to walk.

i do agree its a personal thing.........the rest, i really don't agree on capt.

i'll make that shot that you want to go three rails with, with a 1/2 tip of spin and get there with a medium stroke..........easily. take the shot you are talking about and hit it with a medium stroke, hit PERFECTLY where you aim and watch how much spin and speed the ball takes after it leaves the first rail. if you have a good stroke you'll see what i mean. as far as hitting the ball harder......like i said above.........people should spend more time practicing their stroke. you should be able to shoot a shot pretty firm and still make it. i'm not saying blast the ball a million miles an hour, but you should be able to hit it pretty hard. again, if you can't, you've got a flaw somewhere. if you can't get to where you want with a 1/2 tip to 1 full tip.......then you need to work on your stroke, and hitting where you intend. anything more than a tip is pretty excessive.........especially seeings how you really can't go more than 3 tips without risking a miscue.

and as far as knowing how to walk...........depends on what you consider walking in this game........probably a different definition that i have.

thanks

VAP

 

[lewdo26]

I've stated in prior threads that the amount of english used comes down to style. On certain shots you definitely have to use it. On other shots it is definitely better not to use english.

Those are the obvious cases. Most shots however are in between. And I have seen the same shot played with and without english by pros. That's when style comes in.

I do think english is a little overrated in our english-centric world. It is much easier to master sidespin than it is to master speed control, IMHO. And yet, you will rarely see threads on speed control. Amateurs, from what I'm able to observe, DO abuse the use of english.

On the other hand, there is what Ginky said (and this I heard from a friend who spoke to him, so it is admitedly second hand): He says he doesn't believe in centerball. When we think we are using centerball, in fact we are victims of unintended english because contacting the cueball dead center is very hard to do on a consistent basis. That being the case, why not use a SMALL amount of english (say 1/4 tip) on every shot?

Different views, different styles.

 

[hillbilly]

centerball

Just read Billiards Digest and saw where Shawn Putman (I believe) went from using excessive english to centerball, resulting in much better play for him. Maybe this is because he used excessive and any change to something less radical could be the answer to his success. I don't know.

When I started playing I used centerball, top, bottom 90% of the time. It seems to have made decision making easy and once you get the hang of it, it ain't so bad, at least IMHO.

Then there is Earl who says that you have to spin the ball in 9 ball to be a world beater.

Then there was Kid Cole Dixon, the best 9 ball player EVER, who used mostly centerball, at least it appeared to me from watching on the sidelines.

Has anyone here tried shooting 9 ball mostly with centerball, and what do you think of using it full-time?

Thanks in advance, WW

Hello,
Just a quick note to all you "center ballers" out there. Although there are exceptions to the rule as far as what englishes "world beaters" use to play 9-ball,(Earl), center ball in my experience of play and ESPECIALLY teaching is the most consistent of all englishes. Because center ball is such a small point on the vertical axis of the cue ball, it is most difficult for any amateur OR Pro player to find only because they don't know what point they are looking for and how to FIND it. What most players are unaware of is that there are reference points that are easily used in order to find center ball. I can't think Shawn Putnam enough for the great compliment of crediting me for teaching him how to find center ball in the Billiard Digest article (May2005). He's absolutely right, "The worst is to get locked up with a bad teacher. That's like the anti-Christ." For those of you that are interested, my up and coming book, inventions, and teaching methods (for my pool school) go beyond such simple stratagies as learning center ball.

Charles "Hillbilly" Bryant
"Hillbilly On The Hill"

 

[drivermaker]

On the other hand, there is what Ginky said (and this I heard from a friend who spoke to him, so it is admitedly second hand): He says he doesn't believe in centerball. When we think we are using centerball, in fact we are victims of unintended english because contacting the cueball dead center is very hard to do on a consistent basis. That being the case, why not use a SMALL amount of english (say 1/4 tip) on every shot?

So if you're getting unintended english on center ball, by suggesting 1/4 tip on every shot, you would really be applying 1/2 or more tip of english to the CB with the same funky stroke and once again exaggerating spin. That is, unless you know on a consistent basis which way and how much your stroke is off on any shot, then you could offset to strike centerball consistently.

 

[vapoolplayer]

Hello,
Just a quick note to all you "center ballers" out there. Although there are exceptions to the rule as far as what englishes "world beaters" use to play 9-ball,(Earl), center ball in my experience of play and ESPECIALLY teaching is the most consistent of all englishes. Because center ball is such a small point on the vertical axis of the cue ball, it is most difficult for any amateur OR Pro player to find only because they don't know what point they are looking for and how to FIND it. What most players are unaware of is that there are reference points that are easily used in order to find center ball. I can't think Shawn Putnam enough for the great compliment of crediting me for teaching him how to find center ball in the Billiard Digest article (May2005). He's absolutely right, "The worst is to get locked up with a bad teacher. That's like the anti-Christ." For those of you that are interested, my up and coming book, inventions, and teaching methods (for my pool school) go beyond such simple stratagies as learning center ball.

Charles "Hillbilly" Bryant
"Hillbilly On The Hill"

when will you be in the central east coast area charlie?

VAP

 

[lewdo26]

So if you're getting unintended english on center ball, by suggesting 1/4 tip on every shot, you would really be applying 1/2 or more tip of english to the CB with the same funky stroke and once again exaggerating spin. That is, unless you know on a consistent basis which way and how much your stroke is off on any shot, then you could offset to strike centerball consistently.

Hey, drivermaker, I'm not going to argue with any of what you just said. I'm a centerball kind of guy myself. I was just trying to describe the argument of the "english-needed" camp.

 

[CaptainJR]

i do agree its a personal thing.........the rest, i really don't agree on capt.

i'll make that shot that you want to go three rails with, with a 1/2 tip of spin and get there with a medium stroke..........easily. take the shot you are talking about and hit it with a medium stroke, hit PERFECTLY where you aim and watch how much spin and speed the ball takes after it leaves the first rail. if you have a good stroke you'll see what i mean. as far as hitting the ball harder......like i said above.........people should spend more time practicing their stroke. you should be able to shoot a shot pretty firm and still make it. i'm not saying blast the ball a million miles an hour, but you should be able to hit it pretty hard. again, if you can't, you've got a flaw somewhere. if you can't get to where you want with a 1/2 tip to 1 full tip.......then you need to work on your stroke, and hitting where you intend. anything more than a tip is pretty excessive.........especially seeings how you really can't go more than 3 tips without risking a miscue.

and as far as knowing how to walk...........depends on what you consider walking in this game........probably a different definition that i have.

thanks

VAP

I don't think we are disagreeing as much as we might think we are. I do think that we are probably talking about different amounts of spin or different speeds of shot. Your saying that you can take the cue ball with a medium stroke 3 rails to the bottom rail. One of two things are amiss here and I'm not saying that you can't do what your saying you can do. We just have to be talking about two different things. Either your medium stoke is a lot harder than mine or when you say a half tip you mean more than what I consider half a tip. The speed of a medium stroke is going to be tough to talk about on here. I'll just say that when I hit with a medium stroke I'm not talk that much faster than a very slow stroke. This is a guess but maybe about 1/8 of break speed.
I can talk about what a halt tip of english is. It isn't very much. That would mean that the edge of the tip is still at center ball. You have moved less than a quarter of an inch. Without putting a 'more than medium' stoke on the ball, your not going to get much spin. And quit talking like I don't have a stroke. My stroke is probably more than a little better than yours and I can say that not even knowing who you are for sure. Stoke is not the problem with my game at all. (I know Fred, you still want me to slow down my back stroke more, but I think it is as slow as it's going to get.)

Again, I don't think we a really disagreeing much. As you mentioned, it is very rare that I use more that 1 tip of english and never more than one and a half tips.

 

[drivermaker]

And quit talking like I don't have a stroke. My stroke is probably more than a little better than yours and I can say that not even knowing who you are for sure. Stoke is not the problem with my game at all.

If you've never seen him or his stroke, how can you make that assumption?
On the other hand, maybe he's seen you and yours and knows otherwise.
Whaddaya think?

 

[lewdo26]

If you've never seen him or his stroke, how can you make that assumption?
On the other hand, maybe he's seen you and yours and knows otherwise.
Whaddaya think?

Like communicating in sign language in a pitch-dark room. I got 50 on Captain. Who d'ya got, Driver?

 

[drivermaker]

Like communicating in sign language in a pitch-dark room. I got 50 on Captain. Who d'ya got, Driver?

I like going for the gusto right off the bat...10,000 on VAP
How do we prove it?