Chalk Experiment Results, with Video

dr_dave

Instructional Author
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Silver Member
About 10 years ago I had a student who had his own table. Being a 49ers fan, he had covered the table with red cloth and had red chalk to match. I avoided vomiting and began the fairly basic lessons. When we got to draw, he kept miscuing. I said, "Let me show you how the stroke should look," and proceeded to miscue several times. The chalk he had simply did not work well. I got some other red chalk for the next lesson as did he. None of the red chalk worked for either of us, although blue chalk (which leaves really ugly marks on red cloth) did work OK. The student changed his cloth to green and his chalk to blue.

My conclusion: some chalk does not work nearly as well as other chalk.

Maybe bad chalk is hard to find but I suspect it still exists. I've encountered some really bad chalk in taverns.
Ok. You guys have convinced me to go on a mission to find a bad chalk. I found an old cube of Silver Cup last night. I'll put it through the tests this week.

Thanks,
Dave
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
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Silver Member
As ever, my own personal experience contradicts much of the good doctor's findings.

I find the notion of all chalk, tips and shafts essentially producing the same results to be palpably absurd.
For the record, I've never claimed that all shafts produce the same results. In fact, I have lots of data on my website clearing documenting that the opposite is true.

Regards,
Dave
 

drhanson

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Dr. Dave,

Thanks for taking the time do this test and post your findings. You just saved me $95.05. I'm running low on chalk at home and was going to buy a box of my former preferred brand of 50 pieces for $115; I ended up changing brands and spending $19.95 for a box of 144. Actually, 144 pieces of my other brand would have cost $331.25 so in reality you saved me $311.25. If I wanted to buy the most expensive brand and get 144 of them, it would have cost me $4,004.85 more at the site I shop. I think I can find something better to spend the four grand on.

I too am interested in your findings at the low end of the spectrum. When I go to pool rooms I avoid the 'APA' branded chalk around here like the plague. It could be in my head but I find I miscue a lot with whatever brand of chalk that is. If I remember right, it's extremely hard and doesn't stick to the tip very well. I found something that looked similar to it on e-bay for a couple of pennies a piece.

Thanks again and I look forward to the next update of chalk talk!
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
The first two images shows one of the fake Triangle that might come out of the same manufacturer of Pioneer.

The magification is around 190X.

The next 2 images are of Adam Chalk

Since there are a 5 image per post limit, I will post the Predator images in my next post.
Thank you for posting those pics. Cool stuff.

Catch you later,
Dave
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Dave,

Thanks for all the hard work you do. It is certainly appreciated by legions of pool enthusiasts,
most of whom will not let you know their appreciation. Again, we know how much labor (of love) you dedicate to your work.
Thank you for your kind and supportive post. I appreciate it.

By the way, I would think mentioning prices of the chalk is not critical or prejudicial, just factual. And of note.
You make a good point. I did think about including the prices but I decided not to because I wanted the focus to be on performance.

Catch you later,
Dave
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Why you didn't include Predator in the test is a mystery.
To keep the experiment and video editing from taking even longer than it did, I decided before I started to limit the list to five chalks. I chose the ones that I thought were most frequently mentioned on AZB.

I certainly have nothing against Predator. I use and like their shafts, and I think they helped improve quality and science in the cue industry.

Regards,
Dave
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Ok. You guys have convinced me to go on a mission to find a bad chalk. I found an old cube of Silver Cup last night. I'll put it through the tests this week.

Thanks,
Dave

Silver Cup should be decent. They have been around a while and don't get the credit they deserve IMO for being a good alternative to Masters. I bet a lot of folks couldn't tell the difference if you switched labels between Silver Cup and Masters.

Masters is simply like comfort food to a lot of players. You see that familiar red label and think there is something I can count on. There used to be dozens of chalk brands,

In fact how many can we name now? Excluding the sportcraft/pioneer types.

Masters - Tweeten
Triangle - Tweeten
Brunswick
Silver Cup
Blue Diamond
Russian Magic Chalk
Predator
Kamui
PanXioTing
Cosmo (discontinued)
Lava
Private Label Brands made by Tweeten (ACA Chalk, APA? etc)

Did I miss any? Chris I missed yours because I forgot what you named it and am too lazy to look it up. :)
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Silver Cup should be decent. They have been around a while and don't get the credit they deserve IMO for being a good alternative to Masters. I bet a lot of folks couldn't tell the difference if you switched labels between Silver Cup and Masters.

Masters is simply like comfort food to a lot of players. You see that familiar red label and think there is something I can count on. There used to be dozens of chalk brands,

In fact how many can we name now? Excluding the sportcraft/pioneer types.

Masters - Tweeten
Triangle - Tweeten
Brunswick
Silver Cup
Blue Diamond
Russian Magic Chalk
Predator
Kamui
PanXioTing
Cosmo (discontinued)
Lava
Private Label Brands made by Tweeten (ACA Chalk, APA? etc)

Did I miss any? Chris I missed yours because I forgot what you named it and am too lazy to look it up. :)
I haven't had time to test the Silver Cup yet, but I will soon. I might wait until the Magic Chalk arrives so I can test them at the same time.

Catch you later,
Dave
 

BasementDweller

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Silver Cup should be decent. They have been around a while and don't get the credit they deserve IMO for being a good alternative to Masters. I bet a lot of folks couldn't tell the difference if you switched labels between Silver Cup and Masters.

I'll be shocked if Dave doesn't conclude that Silver Cup is significantly worse than Masters. I bought some of that stuff a few years back and it quickly found itself in the trash.

Maybe I got a bad batch? I wouldn't bet on it.
 

Sloppy Pockets

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'll be shocked if Dave doesn't conclude that Silver Cup is significantly worse than Masters. I bought some of that stuff a few years back and it quickly found itself in the trash.

Maybe I got a bad batch? I wouldn't bet on it.

I got a box of Silver Cup spruce green that came with my table. I thought it worked fine. It's not like I was launching the CB into orbit every time I tried to do a power draw. I still have most of the box left. Maybe I'll give it a try again and hate it.

I would have continued using it if it wasn't for finding out how "inferior" it is on AZB. After that I got me some BD, then some Kamui (sorry, I just HAD to know Lol). Tried a box of the stuff they were were selling at the ACA booth at SBE, looked like Masters with the ACA logo on it. That worked OK, too.

Lately I've been using the Cuel brand from Europe (came with my qPod), and it is all I could ask of a chalk. Like BD, only goes on a little smoother and lasts a little longer IMO. It's a quality chalk for sure. When I run out I think I'll order a case from Double Dave's website and be done with the chalk search. It's certainly cheap enough (30 Euros/gross) compared to BD, and...

It comes in green to match my cloth.

http://www.doubledavecues.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=96_114&products_id=4150
 

Koop

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Silver Cup should be decent. They have been around a while and don't get the credit they deserve IMO for being a good alternative to Masters. I bet a lot of folks couldn't tell the difference if you switched labels between Silver Cup and Masters.

Masters is simply like comfort food to a lot of players. You see that familiar red label and think there is something I can count on. There used to be dozens of chalk brands,

In fact how many can we name now? Excluding the sportcraft/pioneer types.

Masters - Tweeten
Triangle - Tweeten
Brunswick
Silver Cup
Blue Diamond
Russian Magic Chalk
Predator
Kamui
PanXioTing
Cosmo (discontinued)
Lava
Private Label Brands made by Tweeten (ACA Chalk, APA? etc)

Did I miss any? Chris I missed yours because I forgot what you named it and am too lazy to look it up. :)

How about Balabuska? I used it before and liked it.

I use Blue Diamond now and love it.
 

StraightPoolIU

Brent
Silver Member
My experience with Silver Cup (a long time ago) was the same problem I have with red and green Masters. I found it excessively powdery. The red chalk was the worst of all. All of us know that after you play long enough you'll have bluing on your shaft. When I would play on the tables at Ball State they had red cloth and red chalk and I refused to use it. My buddy used it and it turned his cue red after only a couple sessions.
 

Sloppy Pockets

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
OK. I got curious and spent a bit of time checking out my chalks.

The Silver Cup worked OK, but for some reason I just didn't feel confident in it after several miscues at extreme offsets. After a few re-applications this problem seemed to go away and I was drawing my rock like a champ. Don't know why, maybe my morning stroke was off in the beginning? I was able to get way out on the ball after that, almost to the outer ring on my Rempe training ball (which is beyond the halfway point of the ball diameter). At that point the tip felt like it may be slipping a bit on contact, giving me a partial miscue and sending the ball off the aim line by several degrees. The sound was different as well. Not a miscue slap, but a little "chick" sound. Whatever was going on, it would have resulted in a bad miss, but the ball itself took lots of spin.

Then I cleaned the tip and tried both the BD and the Cuel. They felt almost the same to me, giving results too similar for a player of my ability to differentiate between them. I like them both more than the Silver Cup by a lot. They seem to dig in better on hard strokes. Just a more secure feeling hitting the ball, at least to me.

I tried the Kamui (0.98) last. I was able to get way out near the outer ring of the Rempe ball with it before it caused a miscue. It also seemed to generate more spin. With the other chalks I could send the ball from the head spot down to the middle diamond on the foot rail and easily deposit it in the side pocket. With a careful stroke I could get it to hit the rail just below the side pocket. With the Kamui I could hit the rail a full diamond below the side pocket, even at the same tip offset. This may seem contrary to Dr. Dave's findings, but the mark on the ball doesn't lie. The Kamui def gives me slightly more spin at the same offset. But what a mess it makes of the ball!

Not as rigorous as Dave's testing, but this is my personal impression. BTW the cue I used had an Ultraskin Pro tip (super soft), shaped to a dime radius, left tall at install (only took two layers of leather off).
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Magic chalk...and yes, it would be brand new, still in the box....2 cubes.

Again, I can't promise anything, but if you send me a box, I'll try them out and maybe run them through my tests when I can find some time. I'll PM you my mailing address.
Thank you for sending me the Magic Chalk!

I finally found some time to test it, along with the Silver Cup.

The only experiments I did with these two chalks were the "number of hits before miscue" test and the "maximum-spin miscue limit" test.

Concerning miscue limit, both chalks had very similar results as compared to all of the other chalks tested. I could not detect or measure any difference among any of the chalks concerning the maximum-spin miscue limit (although, the Silver Cup miscue limit didn't seem to be quite as far out as the others, but it was very close).

Concerning the "number of hits until miscue," Silver Cup was very similar to Master (flag and pre-flag) and Lava. However, the Magic Chalk was off the charts!!! That stuff really remains effective on the tip for a long time! Here's a summary of all of the data in this category:

chalk: average number of shots before miscue
Master: 8
pre-flag: 8
Lava: 9
Blue Diamond: 11
Kamui: 15
Silver Cup: 7
Magic Chalk: 29!!!

Again, if you chalk before every shot, this doesn't make much of a difference. However, if you forget to chalk, or don't like to chalk often, or don't chalk effectively, and if you miscue often, then Magic Chalk could make a big difference in your game (assuming the miscuing is not a result of poor or inconsistent technique, which is often the case).

Thanks again,
Dave

PS: Honestly, I was shocked by how many off-center-hit shots I could hit without miscuing using the Magic Chalk. The other companies need to figure out what they are doing and do their best to copy (or improve upon) it!
 
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shinobi

kanadajindayo
Silver Member
Concerning miscue limit, both chalks had very similar results as compared to all of the other chalks tested. I could not detect or measure any difference among any of the chalks concerning the maximum-spin miscue limit (although, the Silver Cup miscue limit didn't seem to be quite as far out as the others, but it was very close).

I'm glad you detected at least *some* issues with Silver Cup. My experience was much worse than your description. I could make it miscue 100% of the time using extreme English, and then shoot the same shot with Master and never miscue.

Maybe it was a particularly bad cube I had. Who knows. But I can't say I've ever had a similar experience with other chalk of any brand, regardless of age, humidity, etc.
 

BasementDweller

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm glad you detected at least *some* issues with Silver Cup. My experience was much worse than your description. I could make it miscue 100% of the time using extreme English, and then shoot the same shot with Master and never miscue.

Maybe it was a particularly bad cube I had. Who knows. But I can't say I've ever had a similar experience with other chalk of any brand, regardless of age, humidity, etc.

Yeah....I'm surprised by the Silver Cup results. Last time I played with it, it reminded me of the cheap Walmart type of chalk. I really thought it was almost that bad.

Hmmm....interesting.
 

ChicagoRJ

EEEEEXCELLENT ;)
Silver Member
Thank you for sending me the Magic Chalk!



chalk: average number of shots before miscue
Master: 8
pre-flag: 8
Lava: 9
Blue Diamond: 11
Kamui: 15
Silver Cup: 7
Magic Chalk: 29!!!

Again, if you chalk before every shot, this doesn't make much of a difference. However, if you forget to chalk, or don't like to chalk often, or don't chalk effectively, and if you miscue often, then Magic Chalk could make a big difference in your game (assuming the miscuing is not a result of poor or inconsistent technique, which is often the case).

Thanks again,
Dave

PS: Honestly, I was shocked by how many off-center-hit shots I could hit without miscuing using the Magic Chalk. The other companies need to figure out what they are doing and do their best to copy (or improve upon) it!

Yeah baby, that's what I'm talking about :thumbup: I don't back many products or stick my neck out but I knew the magic chalk was incredible, and why I had no problem sending to u to confirm my own tests I've done in my basement..........

Thanks Dave :grin:
 
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3kushn

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Any study on the effects of Kling on the CB path?
Anything on effects of chalk residue on the rebound angle of the CB? Such as max English with a dirty ball vs clean.
 
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