Chalk Experiment Results, with Video

[dr_dave]

Any study on the effects of Kling on the CB path?

There is some info related to this topic on the cling resource page and in the following articles:

"90° and 30° Rule Follow-up - Part III: inelasticity and friction effects" (BD, April, 2005)
“Throw Follow-up: Part IV: Follow Cling” (BD, October, 2014)

Anything on effects of chalk residue on the rebound angle of the CB? Such as max English with a dirty ball vs clean.

Sorry, but I haven't done anything with this directly, but related effects can be found on the bank and kick shot effects resource page.

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Thank you for sending me the Magic Chalk!

I finally found some time to test it, along with the Silver Cup.

The only experiments I did with these two chalks were the "number of hits before miscue" test and the "maximum-spin miscue limit" test.

Concerning miscue limit, both chalks had very similar results as compared to all of the other chalks tested. I could not detect or measure any difference among any of the chalks concerning the maximum-spin miscue limit (although, the Silver Cup miscue limit didn't seem to be quite as far out as the others, but it was very close).

Concerning the "number of hits until miscue," Silver Cup was very similar to Master (flag and pre-flag) and Lava. However, the Magic Chalk was off the charts!!! That stuff really remains effective on the tip for a long time! Here's a summary of all of the data in this category:

chalk: average number of shots before miscue
Master: 8
pre-flag: 8
Lava: 9
Blue Diamond: 11
Kamui: 15
Silver Cup: 7
Magic Chalk: 29!!!

Again, if you chalk before every shot, this doesn't make much of a difference. However, if you forget to chalk, or don't like to chalk often, or don't chalk effectively, and if you miscue often, then Magic Chalk could make a big difference in your game (assuming the miscuing is not a result of poor or inconsistent technique, which is often the case).

Thanks again,
Dave

PS: Honestly, I was shocked by how many off-center-hit shots I could hit without miscuing using the Magic Chalk. The other companies need to figure out what they are doing and do their best to copy (or improve upon) it!

Yeah baby, that's what I'm talking about :thumbup: I don't back many products or stick my neck out but I knew the magic chalk was incredible, and why I had no problem sending to u to confirm my own tests I've done in my basement..........

Thanks Dave :grin:

You are very welcome. Those results are certainly impressive.

Regards,
Dave

 

[buckshotshoey]

I also tried Silver Cup and soon went back to Masters. The Silver Cup seemed dry and didn't adhere as well.

Dr Dave.....when you used the magic chalk, did it transfer to the cue ball more or less then the Kamui? More or less then Masters?

 

[kolaas]

Awesome reasearch, as ever :thumbup:

Hope you try the other sorts as well.

 

[GideonF]

Thank you for sending me the Magic Chalk!

I finally found some time to test it, along with the Silver Cup.

The only experiments I did with these two chalks were the "number of hits before miscue" test and the "maximum-spin miscue limit" test.

Concerning miscue limit, both chalks had very similar results as compared to all of the other chalks tested. I could not detect or measure any difference among any of the chalks concerning the maximum-spin miscue limit (although, the Silver Cup miscue limit didn't seem to be quite as far out as the others, but it was very close).

Concerning the "number of hits until miscue," Silver Cup was very similar to Master (flag and pre-flag) and Lava. However, the Magic Chalk was off the charts!!! That stuff really remains effective on the tip for a long time!

[snip]

Dave,

Since I've never seen the Magic Chalk, what is it like in terms of residue on the cue ball? Is it as bad as the Kamui? Could you do the chalk residue test on it like you did with the others?

Gideon

 

[buckshotshoey]

Dave,

Since I've never seen the Magic Chalk, what is it like in terms of residue on the cue ball? Is it as bad as the Kamui? Could you do the chalk residue test on it like you did with the others?

Gideon

This is the second inquiry on transfer. Inquiring minds want to know! Lol

 

[BRussell]

At first when I saw these results, I thought it showed a good trade-off for the expensive chalks: you don't have to chalk as often, but with the downside that you could get more skids.

But thinking about it again, that's a shitty trade-off. Most people chalk before every (or almost every) shot anyway. So there's no real advantage for most players. And skids can really screw you, so it's a pretty serious disadvantage to increase their odds.

In all, Dr. Dave's results show that you should not pay more for chalk than you would pay for Master's.

 

[Ron Swanson]

Ive not read all the thread so maybe this has been covered but im not convinced the test is representative of normal playing conditions. For premium chalks to shine, you need to use a tip that is well used, glazed, even. Removing the chalk/Scuffing the tip before every test may level the playing field but it does not replicate real situations.

 

[Wedge]

Wow

All I have to say is that is some good shit Dave! Really enjoyed it. Part of my PSR is to chalk before every shot so I now have confidence in any chalk I pick up at any pool room!

Thanks Again

Wedge

 

[dr_dave]

Dr Dave.....when you used the magic chalk, did it transfer to the cue ball more or less then the Kamui? More or less then Masters?

Dave,

Since I've never seen the Magic Chalk, what is it like in terms of residue on the cue ball? Is it as bad as the Kamui? Could you do the chalk residue test on it like you did with the others?

OK. You guys convinced me to do this test also. I just did it.

The Magic Chalk looks and feels a lot more like Master than Kamui. If anything, it feels and sounds even more abrasive than Master when applying it to the tip.

If I had to guess, I would think Magic Chalk contains larger (and/or stronger and sharper) abrasive particles than the others. Maybe that's why it keeps its effectiveness so long on the tip. Maybe the bigger/stronger/sharper particles stay embedded in the tip surface longer before falling out or breaking. However, this is all conjecture on my part. Does anybody know for a fact what is different about Magic Chalk?

Concerning the test involving how long chalk marks persist on the CB, Magic Chalk is more similar to Master (flag and pre-flag) and Lava than it is to Blue Diamond or Kamui. Here's a summary of the data:

chalk: chalk marks retained out of 6 (clear, faint, very faint)
Master: 2, 1, 2
pre-flag: 2, 2, 1
Lava: 2, 1, 1
Blue Diamond: 5, 1, 0
Kamui: 5, 0, 1
Magic Chalk: 2, 2, 2

It is the "clear" chalk marks that are at most risk of causing cling/skid/kick.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

At first when I saw these results, I thought it showed a good trade-off for the expensive chalks: you don't have to chalk as often, but with the downside that you could get more skids.

But thinking about it again, that's a shitty trade-off. Most people chalk before every (or almost every) shot anyway. So there's no real advantage for most players. And skids can really screw you, so it's a pretty serious disadvantage to increase their odds.

In all, Dr. Dave's results show that you should not pay more for chalk than you would pay for Master's.

I generally agree with you. If you chalk before every off-center hit and chalk effectively, the brand doesn't seem to make much difference (other than the likelihood of more frequent cling/skid/kick with "sticky" chalks like Blue Diamond and Kamui).

Personally, regardless of which chalk I am using, I am going to chalk the tip carefully before any shot requiring an off-center hit. Therefore, I prefer a non"sticky" chalk. If Magic Chalk were readily available and not too expensive I would probably opt for that because it would be reassuring to know that if I forgot to chalk or didn't do so carefully on every shot, it wouldn't matter much. I don't usually like to endorse products (and I would never take money or favors for such a thing), but I was pretty impressed with Magic Chalk's longevity. Having said that, Master works just fine for me (because I do chalk carefully and when appropriate; although, I didn't always do this).

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Ive not read all the thread so maybe this has been covered but im not convinced the test is representative of normal playing conditions. For premium chalks to shine, you need to use a tip that is well used, glazed, even. Removing the chalk/Scuffing the tip before every test may level the playing field but it does not replicate real situations.

You make a good point. I personally rarely scuff my playing tip. However, I would also never let it get close to the being "glazed."

I would expect the chalk test results to be similar for a wide range of tips in decent playing condition; although, I have not tested this. I don't want chalk/tip testing to become my full-time gig. The pay isn't very good.

Regards,
Dave

 

[buckshotshoey]

Thank you Dave. Also I did a search and found an experiment done by The Renfro a little while ago. I remember seeing it after I found it again.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=367974&highlight=magic+chalk

 

[dr_dave]

Thank you Dave. Also I did a search and found an experiment done by The Refno a little while ago. I remember seeing it after I found it again.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=367974&highlight=magic+chalk

Thank you for posting this link. That's good stuff!

Although, it is also important to know how long the chalk marks stay on the CB, which is what I tested for. Having many chalk marks on the CB is what greatly increases the chances for cling/skid/kick during play.

Thanks again,
Dave

 

[KRJ]

I generally agree with you. If you chalk before every off-center hit and chalk effectively, the brand doesn't seem to make much difference (other than the likelihood of more frequent cling/skid/kick with "sticky" chalks like Blue Diamond and Kamui).

Personally, regardless of which chalk I am using, I am going to chalk the tip carefully before any shot requiring an off-center hit. Therefore, I prefer a non"sticky" chalk. If Magic Chalk were readily available and not too expensive I would probably opt for that because it would be reassuring to know that if I forgot to chalk or didn't do so carefully on every shot, it wouldn't matter much. I don't usually like to endorse products (and I would never take money or favors for such a thing), but I was pretty impressed with Magic Chalk's longevity. Having said that, Master works just fine for me (because I do chalk carefully and when appropriate; although, I didn't always do this).

Regards,
Dave

The best part of not having to chalk a lot is when you are doing drills, and can shoot out several racks only chalking once.....chalking is boring, I'd prefer to shoot more :thumbup:

 

[KRJ]

I generally agree with you. If you chalk before every off-center hit and chalk effectively, the brand doesn't seem to make much difference (other than the likelihood of more frequent cling/skid/kick with "sticky" chalks like Blue Diamond and Kamui).

Personally, regardless of which chalk I am using, I am going to chalk the tip carefully before any shot requiring an off-center hit. Therefore, I prefer a non"sticky" chalk. If Magic Chalk were readily available and not too expensive I would probably opt for that because it would be reassuring to know that if I forgot to chalk or didn't do so carefully on every shot, it wouldn't matter much. I don't usually like to endorse products (and I would never take money or favors for such a thing), but I was pretty impressed with Magic Chalk's longevity. Having said that, Master works just fine for me (because I do chalk carefully and when appropriate; although, I didn't always do this).

Regards,
Dave

At first when I saw these results, I thought it showed a good trade-off for the expensive chalks: you don't have to chalk as often, but with the downside that you could get more skids.

But thinking about it again, that's a shitty trade-off. Most people chalk before every (or almost every) shot anyway. So there's no real advantage for most players. And skids can really screw you, so it's a pretty serious disadvantage to increase their odds.

In all, Dr.Dave's results show that you should not pay more for chalk than you would pay for Master's.

Not true, I chalk before the game starts and that's it. I know I can go much longer than that with russian magic chalk, and no need to carry my chalk around, and I don't need a pre shot routine that includes doing something that does not help me decide what shot to shoot......

 

[BRussell]

Not true, I chalk before the game starts and that's it. I know I can go much longer than that with russian magic chalk, and no need to carry my chalk around, and I don't need a pre shot routine that includes doing something that does not help me decide what shot to shoot......

Then those chalks are perfect for you!

 

[Petros Andrikop]

Another interesting thread, as always it all comes down to scientific measurement differences vs functional differences.
Functional differences will always be the ones that matter in the game, even though the scientific measurements behind them are not so different between each shot.
That, along with the facts of lackness of absolute repeatability and scientific limits in measuring all factors involved in a human action, brings the whole matter down to the way of approaching it.

Anything thay will bring a different result, no matter how, matters. That has nothing to do with measurement differences which may not be that significant, one does not contradict the other.

As far as chalk is concerned, apart from all points that already are mentioned by others, I would like to add a simple fact that has been known for years, If I missed it between all replies please ignore it: players usually hang to the same chalk during a match, even using their own. If by mistake you mix different chalks when playing, general experience shows you usually end up with a miscue, even if they are of the same brand.

I use mainly Blue diamond chalk, I find the tip grip-CB chalk mark balance it has good, with good consistency between chalk cubes, usually better than chalk you come up against in pool halls.
Last year I bought some supplies for my home table, among them was a "regular" chalk brand for trying which looked nice, only to be totally dissapointing upon use. That chalk just refused to stay on the tip...
I recently played in a tournament in which tables were not covered with Simonis cloth, that cloth seemed to have more nylon substance than Simonis, me and other players noticed that the CB would tend to swerve less than expected in slow to medium low side spin shots when trying to "kill" the CB, ending up in more missed shots, usuallly on the "thick" side. I changed after my first match to kamui chalk and it did seem to help, I can't ignore that in these cases a placebo effect takes place into a player's mind, but sometimes when things do not "fall in" you just have to change something, anything, even the slightest thing with the slightest technical difference, in order to "stay there"...
Petros

 

[JB Cases]

On thing just occurred to me in the "how many shots before a miscue between chalking" category.

No one has said that they oriented the cue in the same direction for each shot. Thus it kind of skews the test because IMO you could have four shots in a row in the same spot and get a miscue or you could have 30 shots in 30 different spots on the tip and have no miscue.

Test that and see if the same results bear out.

 

[dr_dave]

On thing just occurred to me in the "how many shots before a miscue between chalking" category.

No one has said that they oriented the cue in the same direction for each shot.

I certainly made this clear in the video. But by "no one" you probably meant "no one except Dr. Dave."

Thus it kind of skews the test because IMO you could have four shots in a row in the same spot and get a miscue or you could have 30 shots in 30 different spots on the tip and have no miscue.

Test that and see if the same results bear out.

It would be interesting to do a wide range of tests with fixed vs. random vs. discrete-turning cue orientations, and with different tip hardnesses and chalks, but this would take a very long time.

I think it is possible that a fixed orientation might actually help in some cases because the abrasives in the chalk might be firmly locked into place on the tip during the first few hits. Meanwhile, the chalk and abrasive might be shaken off the other parts of the tip not being hit. This might occur more with some chalks (... maybe the non-"sticky" ones), but I'm not sure. The Magic Chalk certainly didn't seem to have a problem with multiple hits on the same part of the tip.

These are interesting questions and conjectures, but they are meaningless until somebody actually does a careful and complete experiment. I'm done with chalk experiments for now, but maybe I'll revisit this again in the future. Maybe others with contribute also (... I hope so).

Catch you later,
Dave