Changing the Rules in the Middle of a Tourney..

[Captain K.]

i may be wrong but i thought i heard the commentators say the shot clock could be brought out at any point if the refs thought there was deliberate slow play. i will say i did not watch much of the event so i thought i heard this, again i may be wrong.

An interpretacion of what was heard by a commentator is hard for me to answer because I was at the event not on a computer (which was an awsome split screen event they, Bigtuck and inside pool did great job):thumbup::thumbup:

Howdy ya'll, to clarify. The the matches were set at a 2 hour time limit, all referees from the first match on Friday and the last match that ended about 1:30 am on Monday morning had a stopwatch. Durning the players meeting and before the start of each match the players were to be notified of the 2 hour time limit and that one hour and 1/2 hour time left in match, it was left up the referees discretion when to instute the shot clock for the remander of said match, unless the TDs (Ken Shulman, Zack Ballas) deemed it to be instituted at an earlier time, during a specific match.

I will try to answer each specific question to the best of my knowlege in each post.

If someone is just going to bash the event from behind an avatar name, those questions will be left alone.

Badi has invested, infused a conciderable amount of money and time, to host this and last years event in Aruba. His long range plan is to have open events that will be events on the line with pro golf, pro tennis, pro bowling.

Thankyou
Kennan Keffer
Denton, Tx.

 

[dabarbr]

From personal experence with Jason, I'm not too sorry for him.

 

[MahnaMahna]

Reality:
It was the semifinals, getting late at night on a Sunday.
The majority of the spectators, unlike the players, have jobs they have to be at on Monday morning.
Case closed.

Conspiracy theory:
The tournament director wanted Deschane to win all along.
He intentionally didn't set up enough tables, and placed the existing tables in positions that would disadvantage every player but Mike.
The TD made sure that Mike got all of the ideal start times, and had the mechanics set up the tables to roll in Mike's favor every time.
Once he was in the semifinals, the TD brought out the shot clock to seal the deal.
Anyone who believes this is completely delusional.
Case closed.

 

[Captain K.]

They changed it MID MATCH with Dechaine and Klatt. And Klatt was by no means shooting slow. He ran the balls at a quick pace when he had open shots, he spent some time thinking on safeties and tricky opening shots abit but on those shots you are supposed to think before you shoot on those shots. Neither Klatt or Dechaine were shooting slow at all when they made the change, and it VERY clearly bugged Klatt before he even broke the rack following the change as he asked "when" the 15 second call would be made to make sure it would not be in his backstroke. He was then told if he was down on the shot he would get no 15 second warning, and if time ran out it would simply be a sudden foul with no warning. Great rule director....

2 hour time limit, to clarify during a shot clock match each player gets 45sec. and one 30 sec extention, if the score is hill hill for the final game of the set each player gets two 30 sec extensions. During a players inning, the player shall be notified at the 15 second unless said player is down on the shot, blurting out during that could destract a player, What Ken Shulman said was that he would not intrupt a players stroke to give a 15 second warning, not that during your pre shot routine he wouyld not give the 15 second warning, so that if a player where to spend over 15 seconds at the end of the first 30 seconds of aloted shot time and not execute the shot, then a ball in hand foul would be issued.

So if a player takes more than 15 seconds to execute a single backstroke and follow stroke then yes it is possible to have a shot clock vilolation without a 15 or less second warning, ie: player has used 28 seconds of time and in stroke to shoot the ball 7 seconds later said player backs out of shot then the ref would declair 10 seconds not 15 since 10 seconds would be the time remaining.

Ken Shulman changed the warning from the normal 10 second warning to the added 5 seconds to a total of 15 seconds (at the referees meeting)to give the referees a little more leeway on a warring, unlike in many pro and TV events were the warning is only at 10 seconds. so yes good job TD:thumbup:

I will try to answer each specific question to the best of my knowlege in each post.

If someone is just going to bash the event from behind an avatar name, those questions will be left alone.

Badi has invested, infused a conciderable amount of money and time, to host this and last years event in Aruba. His long range plan is to have open events that will be events on the line with pro golf, pro tennis, pro bowling.

Thankyou
Kennan Keffer
Denton, Tx.

 

[Captain K.]

Maybe saying it was done to give an advantage is a little strong, but this is the very nature of the game we are talking about, here.. A big part of the game is about getting your opponent to play at a pace he/she doesn't like.. And doing it with a rule change is kinda uncool..

And to the guy asking about stroking your cue up in the air before u shoot.. That has a lot to do with the visualization of the shot, and pre-shot routine.. Most every pool player does this, whether realizing it, or not..

2 hour time limit, to clarify during a shot clock match each player gets 45sec. and one 30 sec extention, if the score is hill hill for the final game of the set each player gets two 30 sec extensions. During a players inning, the player shall be notified at the 15 second unless said player is down on the shot, blurting out during that could destract a player, What Ken Shulman said was that he would not intrupt a players stroke to give a 15 second warning, not that during your pre shot routine he wouyld not give the 15 second warning, so that if a player where to spend over 15 seconds at the end of the first 30 seconds of aloted shot time and not execute the shot, then a ball in hand foul would be issued.

So if a player takes more than 15 seconds to execute a single backstroke and follow stroke then yes it is possible to have a shot clock vilolation without a 15 or less second warning, ie: player has used 28 seconds of time and in stroke to shoot the ball 7 seconds later said player backs out of shot then the ref would declair 10 seconds not 15 since 10 seconds would be the time remaining.

Ken Shulman changed the warning from the normal 10 second warning to the added 5 seconds to a total of 15 seconds (at the referees meeting)to give the referees a little more leeway on a warring, unlike in many pro and TV events were the warning is only at 10 seconds. so yes good job TD

I will try to answer each specific question to the best of my knowlege in each post.

If someone is just going to bash the event from behind an avatar name, those questions will be left alone.

Badi has invested, infused a conciderable amount of money and time, to host this and last years event in Aruba. His long range plan is to have open events that will be events on the line with pro golf, pro tennis, pro bowling.

Thankyou
Kennan Keffer
Denton, Tx.

 

[Celtic]

It is actually very cool for you to come here and address the issues with the fans Captain K.

Take the thread as constructive criticism, rest assured people like Badi are very highly regarded in my books for helping to promote and grow this sport. If I can put in a little $0.02 in an effort to maybe shed some light on areas that could be tweaked and make the event even better the next year it is because I would like to see the events continue to improve and grow for the betterment of everyone invloved.

The fact you are here at all says alot in my books.

For shot clock, IMO the only way to make these things fair is to be extremely objective. If you see a match dragging, a player playing slow, put them on a hidden clock, time their average shot time over the course of 20 shots, if that average after those 20 shots is over 45 seconds per a shot then no warning, the shot clock is being implemented. Absolutely no subjectivity, no 18 shot average, or "gee he is taking 40 seconds per a shot average". If you are extremely objective, have very clear numbers, and it is known at the start of the event that this is exactly how it is going to be guaged, then the players and fans both don't have a leg to stand on if they complain.

The big issue I had was that it looked like Klatt and Dechaine both were not shooting slow, and it is brutally obvious that Jeremy was shooting alot slower in the entire match against Klatt then either Mike or Jason were shooting in the match when the shot clock was first implemented. That is where the whole thing got the subjective vibe, that is where the confusion and questions are comming from. It was clear that in one match very slow play was tollerated through the whole match, and then in the subsequent match far quicker play was not. It was inconsistent.

And 2 hours per a match is reasonable, but when you raise the length of the set you must pro-rate the estimated maximum length of the match. If 120 minutes is the length you want a race to 8 to max out at (8 minutes/game average based on a hill hill 8-7 result) a race to 10 needs to be 152 minutes (the same 8 minute average based on a 10-9 result) and a race to 12 needs to be 184 (the same 8 minute average base on a 12-11 result).

Keep things objective like that, pure math, no questions will arise, they are clear number based formulas and they are objectively followed for all the players in the event at all times equally.

 

[kanecalgary]

I thought it was a bad decision for the clock to be started in the middle of a match. Jason Klatt just started looking really strong, and then really weak as soon as the clock started to mess with him. I believe he had a good shot at first and ended up with $10,000 less for third.

 

[kanecalgary]

I know at one point when JJ and Mike were playing in the finals around the point when it was 9-9 and there seemed to be a little contreversy about Mike double hitting the cueball when he was on the eight but no foul was called. Has anyone rewatched it to see if this really happened?

I thought that shot 100% was a foul, no way he gets down table that far with that stroke unless he double hit's it.

 

[Captain K.]

Unless you were in the players meeting before the tournament began you can't be certain they changed the rules in the middle of the event. Many tournaments use a shot clock for the semis or final that aren't present for the earlier matches. The same goes with the match being refereed or all ball fouls. In many events these rules don't apply until the final but it is known in advance that the final will be all balls and a ref will call the match.

As for shot clocks being instituted during a match, I don't know about this event or the Klatt match but I am aware of many events in which the shot clock is introduced to a match if the match doesn't meet certain thresholds such as x number of games completed by the 90 minute mark, etc. So it may have had nothing to do with Klatt in particular (or his opponent) but rather the match for whatever reason was running over the allotted time. And once the match is on the shot clock there are rules to abide by (such as 15 seconds after getting down on a shot or whatever).

Don't know particularly about this event but to come right out and say the rules were changed in the middle of the competition without some documentation to back it up is premature.

At the referee meeting 7:30 am Fiday morning before table assignments, the TD (Ken Shulman)
The shot clock is left to the discretion of the ref, ( for slow play with the 2 hour time limit) at said table unless told otherwise be the TD (Ken or Zack).

This is the first pro billiards event in North Texas in over 15 years, it was impossible to a have a pro experenced referee at everytable for every match, most where league captains, local tournament TDs (5-20 entry events most are weekly) or TAP, BCA, APA players. There is only one local 10 tournament in the DFW area and they play with continous roll out. The rules for this event are on the web site and the changes were also verbalized in the players and referee meetings.

So the men and women who showed up to ref (great heart and courage) this was their first time to see pro players that they have seen on TV for YEARS. :thumbup:
So most had never used a stopwatch for a match, so unless the ref was instucted to start the shot clock they let the players play at their own speed. ie: A ref not ever having a pro players experince gong to tell Ralf Souquet, Corey Duell, Mika Immonm, Johnny Archer, ecetera ecetra, they are playing to slow, I think not, which is why Ken Shulman left it up to the ref at the table.(unless instucted otherwise)

I will try to answer each specific question to the best of my knowlege in each post.

Badi has invested, infused a conciderable amount of money and time, to host this and last years event in Aruba. His long range plan is to have open events that will be events on the line with pro golf, pro tennis, pro bowling.

Thankyou
Kennan Keffer
Denton, Tx.

 

[Captain K.]

Well, I talked to JJ right after the finals, last night, and let's just say he was not pleased.. Which would lead me to believe there was no mention of a shot clock during the player's meeting..

Ken Shulman was directly refereeing this finals match, you can easly contact him and be informed of the correct information so you will not have to make an assumtion. :thumbup:Thankyou for coming out to the event, do you know if we spoke.

Thankyou
Kennan Keffer

 

[Captain K.]

I thought it was a bad decision for the clock to be started in the middle of a match. Jason Klatt just started looking really strong, and then really weak as soon as the clock started to mess with him. I believe he had a good shot at first and ended up with $10,000 less for third.

2 hour time limit on matches
The shotclock was in use all weekend, left to the ref at the tables discrtion on when to use
to clarify during a shot clock match each player gets 45sec. and one 30 sec extention, if the score is hill hill for the final game of the set each player gets two 30 sec extensions. During a players inning, the player shall be notified at the 15 second unless said player is down on the shot, blurting out during that could destract a player, What Ken Shulman said was that he would not intrupt a players stroke to give a 15 second warning, not that during your pre shot routine he wouyld not give the 15 second warning, so that if a player where to spend over 15 seconds at the end of the first 30 seconds of aloted shot time and not execute the shot, then a ball in hand foul would be issued.

So if a player takes more than 15 seconds to execute a single backstroke and follow stroke then yes it is possible to have a shot clock vilolation without a 15 or less second warning, ie: player has used 28 seconds of time and in stroke to shoot the ball 7 seconds later said player backs out of shot then the ref would declair 10 seconds not 15 since 10 seconds would be the time remaining.

Ken Shulman changed the warning from the normal 10 second warning to the added 5 seconds to a total of 15 seconds (at the referees meeting)to give the referees a little more leeway on a warring, unlike in many pro and TV events were the warning is only at 10 seconds. so yes good job TD

I will try to answer each specific question to the best of my knowlege in each post.

Badi has invested, infused a conciderable amount of money and time, to host this and last years event in Aruba. His long range plan is to have open events that will be events on the line with pro golf, pro tennis, pro bowling.

Thankyou
Kennan Keffer
Denton, Tx.

 

[Captain K.]

I thought it was a bad decision for the clock to be started in the middle of a match. Jason Klatt just started looking really strong, and then really weak as soon as the clock started to mess with him. I believe he had a good shot at first and ended up with $10,000 less for third.

The shot clock was in use during the whole 3 day event, some matchs ie: Rodney Morriss 8-0 when took under 25 minutes, but most fell close to the 2 hour time limit with out need for the shot clock.

Badi has invested, infused a conciderable amount of money and time, to host this and last years event in Aruba. His long range plan is to have open events that will be events on the line with pro golf, pro tennis, pro bowling.

Thankyou
Kennan Keffer
Denton, Tx.

 

[Captain K.]

I thought that shot 100% was a foul, no way he gets down table that far with that stroke unless he double hit's it.

You will have to go with TD Ken Shulmans no call desision. I will try to go through and find out if it is possible to tell from video, but being at the match I thought it was a good hit, when the cue ball came down table and was slowing down it still was spinning.

Kennan Keffer

 

[Captain K.]

It is actually very cool for you to come here and address the issues with the fans Captain K.

Take the thread as constructive criticism, rest assured people like Badi are very highly regarded in my books for helping to promote and grow this sport. If I can put in a little $0.02 in an effort to maybe shed some light on areas that could be tweaked and make the event even better the next year it is because I would like to see the events continue to improve and grow for the betterment of everyone invloved.

The fact you are here at all says alot in my books.

For shot clock, IMO the only way to make these things fair is to be extremely objective. If you see a match dragging, a player playing slow, put them on a hidden clock, time their average shot time over the course of 20 shots, if that average after those 20 shots is over 45 seconds per a shot then no warning, the shot clock is being implemented. Absolutely no subjectivity, no 18 shot average, or "gee he is taking 40 seconds per a shot average". If you are extremely objective, have very clear numbers, and it is known at the start of the event that this is exactly how it is going to be guaged, then the players and fans both don't have a leg to stand on if they complain.

The big issue I had was that it looked like Klatt and Dechaine both were not shooting slow, and it is brutally obvious that Jeremy was shooting alot slower in the entire match against Klatt then either Mike or Jason were shooting in the match when the shot clock was first implemented. That is where the whole thing got the subjective vibe, that is where the confusion and questions are comming from. It was clear that in one match very slow play was tollerated through the whole match, and then in the subsequent match far quicker play was not. It was inconsistent.

And 2 hours per a match is reasonable, but when you raise the length of the set you must pro-rate the estimated maximum length of the match. If 120 minutes is the length you want a race to 8 to max out at (8 minutes/game average based on a hill hill 8-7 result) a race to 10 needs to be 152 minutes (the same 8 minute average based on a 10-9 result) and a race to 12 needs to be 184 (the same 8 minute average base on a 12-11 result).

Keep things objective like that, pure math, no questions will arise, they are clear number based formulas and they are objectively followed for all the players in the event at all times equally.

Thankyou, I was just a ref at the event, and man having the oportunity to mingle with all the top mens and women pros, well just say my brother playing catch with Terry Bradshaw when he was 12, does not hold up anymore. I had the privalige to referee many matches for many of my heros , Johnny, Earl, Rodney, the Fishers, Monica, Charlie, Ralf, the list goes on and on. :thumbup: really the only ones I did not ref a match for was Shane and Alex. but they had matches on tables near me so I could catch a glimps between time outs and such.


This is the first major pro billiard event in north Texas in 15 + years (Dallas Ft.Worth) Cowboys, Mavericks, Rangers, Stars, and more oil tycoons than you can poke, but no pro billiards event. so getting 20 + pro experinced refs was impossible, would have loved it if mant of the pro experinced referees that are on AZ would have been able to take
Easter weekend off from their families and come down to assist.
Hopefully this will be a yearlly event and the refing will only improve:thumbup:

With that, we barely had enough people with league refing that showed up, it was impossible to add an extra person to take times of each plyers time during each match, so at the referee meeting Ken, said that the shot clock would be instituted at the refs discretion at the table unless told other wise by the Td

Thankyou again for the stat chart, I base it on (using a 2 hour limit) race to 8, if both players were not at 4 or more wins each at the one hour mark notification, I state we will start the shot clock at the end of the next 30 minutes after the game being played at that time is over. In the 18 matches I refed I used the shot clock on 7 matches and 3 of those on the stream matches.

Kennan Keffer

P. I f ever going to be in the DF/W area, shoot me a pm would like to meet you

and play some pool

 

[Captain K.]

The slowest thing I noticed were the refs, they needed a prep clock for preparing the next rack......literally seemed like minutes between racks.

The magic rack was great, first time I used one was the 8:00am match between Josh Ulrick and some hall of famer named Earl Stickland, but never had one rerack the whole 3 day event, on my second match Mr. Souquet gave me a pointer on placing the balls on the rack rather than rolling across it. and use liter presure when tapping them.

As for prepep time onstarting a rack witha Delta, Sardo, I have seen up to 5,6,7,8 reracks, then the TD is brought and and another few reracks, before they say play. The refs are responsible to cleaning balls of black marks from the pockets, hand wipe tables (no brushing), score games on paper and on the Diamond lights, and on the non stream tables stand with the bridge(yeah I know really got to hold the bridge, but that is what Badi wanted)

so a minute or two betwwen rack is not unacceptible, matches can go faster when it is rack your own, but anyone who has gone to state or nationals has played a match wjere every rack is protested and a race to five (winner break not alternating as with the 10 ball classic) will take over an hour.

Thankyou Kennan Keffer
ever in D/FW shoot me a pm and lets hit some

 

[GADawg]

Was the 2 hour limit for matches the same for races to 8, 10 and 12?

Sorry if I am asking a question already answered. I may have missed it.

BTW - Magic Rack is great.

 

[Teddydog]

Ken Shulman was directly refereeing this finals match, you can easly contact him and be informed of the correct information so you will not have to make an assumtion. :thumbup:Thankyou for coming out to the event, do you know if we spoke.

Thankyou
Kennan Keffer

I have read many of your explanations, and I'm sorry, but none of it jives with me.. The tournament had late matches the first 2 days, and to spring a rule change on the players who played well enough to make it to the final 3 players left. is just ridiculous..

And let's be clear, shall we.. I used to do convention set ups in New Orleans, and I will bet you dollars to doughnuts that the real reason they put the clock on was because the people who had to break down all the equipment, haul it out, and set up the next convention in that room were pressuring the promoters to force a quicker end to the tournament.. And once again, that's a shame..

 

[Teddydog]

You will have to go with TD Ken Shulmans no call desision. I will try to go through and find out if it is possible to tell from video, but being at the match I thought it was a good hit, when the cue ball came down table and was slowing down it still was spinning.

Kennan Keffer

I'm sure he's a competent ref, but it's like calling a strike on Ted Williams... When JJ says you fouled, you fouled..

 

[Teddydog]

The shot clock was in use during the whole 3 day event, some matchs ie: Rodney Morriss 8-0 when took under 25 minutes, but most fell close to the 2 hour time limit with out need for the shot clock.

Badi has invested, infused a conciderable amount of money and time, to host this and last years event in Aruba. His long range plan is to have open events that will be events on the line with pro golf, pro tennis, pro bowling.

Thankyou
Kennan Keffer
Denton, Tx.

Once again, this is not true.. The shot clock was only used for the final 2 matches of the tournament.. At no other time, during the entire event, was the shot clock used.. Which is why you can pretty much assume the promoters were being pressured by the Hotel..

 

[akaTrigger]

Well, I talked to JJ right after the finals, last night, and let's just say he was not pleased.. Which would lead me to believe there was no mention of a shot clock during the player's meeting..

Really?

I was at the Player's Meeting (because I played in the event). A shot clock was most DEFINITELY mentioned by Ken Shulman during the player's meeting. Further, the rules (that everyone received when signing in) specifically talked about a shot clock, also.