Chinese CNC

pescadoman

pescadoman

Randy
Silver Member
I expect to get a bit of harassment for posting this, but here goes.

I have been looking into this and would like your thoughts..



It would include a 4th axis.

It is available with square rails for y axis and a higher speed spindle.

Model
K6100A
X-Y-Z axis working area
600 x1,000 x 120mm
Machine size
1,300 x 1,700mm
Resolutions
0.025mm
X-Y-Z movement
Ball screw drive/Germany
Max. speed
10,000mm/min
Max. cutting speed
6,000mm/min
Spindle
1.5kw
Spindle speed
18,000rpm
Inverter power
1.5kw
Drive motors
stepper
Working voltage
AC220V/50-60Hz
Command code
G code
Computer interface
USB 2.2
Collet
ER11-A , 6mm,3.175mm
Software
Type3 Software/France
Controls
DSP0501 (Digital Signal Processor)
Packing dimensions
1750 x1325 x 1800 mm,350 kgs
Standard equipment included
1. Auto tool surface sensor
2. Dust hood
3. T-slot table with mechanical clamps
 

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Chinese

Some questions you should ask before buying. Who repairs the machine when it breaks. Who supports the software. Rolled or ground ballscrews. Mechanical resolution does not equal actual accuracy or repeatabiltiy. Are the axis square to each other, especially when they put it in a crate in a container and ship it .What is the preload on the linear rails. How flat is the table top. How are the ballscrews preloaded, or are they. I'm sure it's an attrictive price, but I've found that when it comes to mechanical cnc devices, there is no free lunch. You get what you pay for. If you don't have a complete understanding of all aspects of the machine, I
would do a whole lot of research. I'm not going to pick on China goods, but if you get a bad one, you are screwed. Hopefully you would be dealing with a local company that has them made in China and has some control and oversight in the production.
 
cutter said:
Some questions you should ask before buying. Who repairs the machine when it breaks. Who supports the software. Rolled or ground ballscrews. Mechanical resolution does not equal actual accuracy or repeatabiltiy. Are the axis square to each other, especially when they put it in a crate in a container and ship it .What is the preload on the linear rails. How flat is the table top. How are the ballscrews preloaded, or are they. I'm sure it's an attrictive price, but I've found that when it comes to mechanical cnc devices, there is no free lunch. You get what you pay for. If you don't have a complete understanding of all aspects of the machine, I
would do a whole lot of research. I'm not going to pick on China goods, but if you get a bad one, you are screwed. Hopefully you would be dealing with a local company that has them made in China and has some control and oversight in the production.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your input Steve. I am doing as much research as I can before I jump into anything. I would be on my own for the most part after purchase. G-code is loaded into the controller on the machine via thumb drive. Software would be purchased by me.
 
i actually very much like the base with the square rails and the bridge. Looks to be very ridgid.

Other than that it appears to be a pc of garbage. The very first thing i noticed was that the y axis ballscrew is floating and supported by nothing other than the coupling. If they skimped on something directly in front of your face then i would hate to see whats going on under the table. Do a search for that part # and you should see some stuff on youtube. Also, the spindle is the cheapest watercooled er11 that they sell on ebay.

Doesnt make sense that they would do some things so well and just completely shank it on other important stuff.

Also, i'll bet money that if you sweep the table with an indicator that it would be frightening. But you will probably want to tram the z before hand because its likely out as well. This is speaking from experience with these imported machines.

If you are deadset on it, hopefully there is a cali distributor you can atleast visit before paying for it.

I do like the frame though, and that can certainly be adjusted to true.

Dont be like me and let an exciting new toy blind you of the truth.
 
on your own

pescadoman said:
Thank you for your input Steve. I am doing as much research as I can before I jump into anything. I would be on my own for the most part after purchase. G-code is loaded into the controller on the machine via thumb drive. Software would be purchased by me.
Click to expand...

Hey, except for some helpful friends, I was on my own after my purchase of a cnc machine.

One last dig.....
Bill
 
pescadoman said:
I expect to get a bit of harassment for posting this, but here goes.

I have been looking into this and would like your thoughts..



It would include a 4th axis.

It is available with square rails for y axis and a higher speed spindle.

Model
K6100A
X-Y-Z axis working area
600 x1,000 x 120mm
Machine size
1,300 x 1,700mm
Resolutions
0.025mm
X-Y-Z movement
Ball screw drive/Germany
Max. speed
10,000mm/min
Max. cutting speed
6,000mm/min
Spindle
1.5kw
Spindle speed
18,000rpm
Inverter power
1.5kw
Drive motors
stepper
Working voltage
AC220V/50-60Hz
Command code
G code
Computer interface
USB 2.2
Collet
ER11-A , 6mm,3.175mm
Software
Type3 Software/France
Controls
DSP0501 (Digital Signal Processor)
Packing dimensions
1750 x1325 x 1800 mm,350 kgs
Standard equipment included
1. Auto tool surface sensor
2. Dust hood
3. T-slot table with mechanical clamps
Click to expand...
How Much???
 
LGSM3 said:
i actually very much like the base with the square rails and the bridge. Looks to be very ridgid.

Other than that it appears to be a pc of garbage. The very first thing i noticed was that the y axis ballscrew is floating and supported by nothing other than the coupling. If they skimped on something directly in front of your face then i would hate to see whats going on under the table. Do a search for that part # and you should see some stuff on youtube. Also, the spindle is the cheapest watercooled er11 that they sell on ebay.

Doesnt make sense that they would do some things so well and just completely shank it on other important stuff.

Also, i'll bet money that if you sweep the table with an indicator that it would be frightening. But you will probably want to tram the z before hand because its likely out as well. This is speaking from experience with these imported machines.

If you are deadset on it, hopefully there is a cali distributor you can atleast visit before paying for it.

I do like the frame though, and that can certainly be adjusted to true.

Dont be like me and let an exciting new toy blind you of the truth.
Click to expand...

Regarding the x axis(which is what I think you meant..not y). With the exception of a cover, what is different from other ballscrew configurations? I suppose between the rails would be better, but I haven't seen other with more support than this.. How have you seen others with better support configured?
 
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pescadoman said:
Regarding the x axis(which is what I think you meant..not y). With the exception of a cover, what is different from other ballscrew configurations? I suppose between the rails would be better, but I haven't seen other with more support than this.. How have you seen others with better support configured?
Click to expand...

Randy

The screw is supported on the left end by a bearing block support. This is good. The right end, however, is only supported by the stepper motor itself. This is a problem.

Over the years I've built several machines, and they have all gotten better as i learned. I've made this mistake before. This setup will not be suitable for precision work, and will give you lots of trouble. To see this out in the open scares me. As Jake said, what will you find that's not out in the open?

I also think you should choose a mach3 compatible system. You're going to need to add a rotary index and a lathe spindle. Most 4th axis that come with these machines leave a lot to be desired and are not controlled the way I would control them. For example, will this machine do both an A axis (index) and a lathe spindle? I m03, m04, and m05 to control my lathe spindle.and turn my router on and off with something else like m07 and m09. Will this control let you do that?

I'm not trying to rain on your parade. It's tough to find plug and play for pool cues. You will need someone that you can call for help.
 
Randy,

I am going to go a different way on this. You may need to do or have done for you some rebuild but that goes with being a Cue Maker as mentioned above, very few plug and play things in Cue Making.

I am wondering do you have a complete Biz Plan? The reason I ask is besides this I saw your recent purchase of a dowleing machine.

Are you going into a supply and service type biz along with making cues or just for personal use?

To break that down better, are you looking to be the Future Thomas Wayne, Searing, Tad (to mention a few) or the next Fury, Poison, Mcdermont?

In Cue building except for rare occasion your shop becomes worth what the going price of your used equipment will bring.

To me, all things can be fixed if you can afford it.

I currently have just over 10K invested without a big back up of wood just so I could make a new player and break cue for myself. My tournament has me commited for 4 more cues. I then must decide if I want to continue or take around a 5K loss.

I knew this going in but I had to make another player and as a retirement hobby it is sure cheaper than a boat.

The size of that machine does zero for me as I have been in three shops that two strong men could load the CNC in a SUV and those machines could literaly Z down and thread a needle.

I don't expect you to publish your biz plan, only hope you have made a solid one and look forward to seeing it grow and unfold. Best of luck no matter what you do.
 
This machine could be used.

Randy, this machine could be used for your intended purpose. However it will need some work done to it. I would assume that no support will be given. If it where it will not help you. I think you are looking for something that will work out of the box. This is not it. Actually that CNC does not exist for cue makers. Now if you decide to purchase this machine, know that it will take some work on your part to make this machine suit your needs. As pointed out, the ball screw is directly connected to the stepper motor. At first this seems like it should work just fine, however, when you power up a stepper, it actually jumps toward a magnetic field. Stepper motors will give in a lateral movement. Most Stepper systems use a rigid mount on the ball screw so that it does not slide back and forth. Then it is coupled to the motor with some sort of anti-backlash coupler that compensates for the movement. So really what was stating is that this machine will have backlash because of the way the ball screw is mounted.

Now I would not be as concerned about that myself if the price was a good one. I just would know that I will need to modify this setup to take out the back lash. I would also convert it to Mach 3 and use my own controller. The VFD for the spindle should work just fine.

You will need to get some experience first before you realize how mechanical give, or back lash, hurts your work. How know, you may not mind, and will be happy with the current setup.

I can only assume at this point, that you are ready to pull the trigger. Is this correct?

Jim.
 
This was all put into motion when I took the dowler to Lobo. They had CNC's all over the place.

This was one of them...

http://www.majesticmachinery.com/Machines/Routers/Docs/4x4router.pdf

Kirk Brown, who is in charge of this division, assured me that this was the ticket and could hold the kind of tolerances required.

Note that the Y does have rack and pinion. I asked him what tolerances it could hold and he said .001 over the 48". I was skeptical.

That machine, with fine thread rack, 40k Elte ATC spindle, and a 4th axis, was around 20k.

Yes Jim, I am.

Tom, my problem is I hate passing up a good deal. The dowler was good and will save me hours, plus wear and tear on other machines. Having 70 amps of true 3 phase at my disposal will be nice as well. There are others I was looking at.

http://www.quick-cnc.com/en/cnc-router/33-k6090d.html

http://www.omni-cnc.com/products/CNC_Router_For_Graphic&Sign/cnc_router_OR6015.html

There was a thread on here in the last few months(which, in spite of diligent searching, I cannot find) that showed someone who had imported a larger machine that would purpose more than just pool cues. That is my intent. I would like to have the latitude to do other things...
 
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the screw appears to be weakly supported on the left by a tiny bearing block. That Z axis with spindle probably ways close to 50lbs +/-....the motor is supported by next to nothing so when it makes an x move, it is likely pushing and pulling the motor up and down depending on what direction its moving.
 
Hi Randy,

Two cents by me, a CNC user but no expert by any means:

1) This machine has a milling table that is way overkill for cue building IMO, unless you are going to make parts up the yin yang, LOL.

2) I like the vacuum system on the business end, that's a good idea.

3.) There are so many great CNC milling machines for sale very cheap at auctions right now, I am sure you can find a great deal closer to home with a little more research.

JMO,

Rick
 
pescadoman said:
This was all put into motion when I took the dowler to Lobo. They had CNC's all over the place.

This was one of them...

http://www.majesticmachinery.com/Machines/Routers/Docs/4x4router.pdf

Kirk Brown, who is in charge of this division, assured me that this was the ticket and could hold the kind of tolerances required.

Note that the Y does have rack and pinion. I asked him what tolerances it could hold and he said .001 over the 48". I was skeptical.

That machine, with fine thread rack, 40k Elte ATC spindle, and a 4th axis, was around 20k.

Yes Jim, I am.

Tom, my problem is I hate passing up a good deal. The dowler was good and will save me hours, plus wear and tear on other machines. Having 70 amps of true 3 phase at my disposal will be nice as well. There are others I was looking at.

http://www.quick-cnc.com/en/cnc-router/33-k6090d.html

http://www.omni-cnc.com/products/CNC_Router_For_Graphic&Sign/cnc_router_OR6015.html

There was a thread on here in the last few months(which, in spite of diligent searching, I cannot find) that showed someone who had imported a larger machine that would purpose more than just pool cues. That is my intent. I would like to have the latitude to do other things...
Click to expand...

Randy,

That sounds great. You can make signs and almost endless works of art. You never know what clever paths life may take you to.
 
Another 2 cents worth. What rags my ass more than anything is when I ask a machine to do something and I don't get what I want.
With a machine like this, there are(as mentioned above) alot of things that can cause inaccuaracy. If you are into screwing around figuring it out, go for it. If comes down to business. Do you want to mess with making the machine work, or do you want to build things with the parts the machine makes. Plus one other thing to consider. Say 3 years from now you want to dump the machine. How much can you get from it. Just some more things to factor into your decision. Royce and Jim know a whole lot about machines and they have alluded to a very real truth, there is no perfect machine. It all comes down to priorities and budget.
 
scdiveteam said:
Hi Randy,

Two cents by me, a CNC user but no expert by any means:

1) This machine has a milling table that is way overkill for cue building IMO, unless you are going to make parts up the yin yang, LOL.

2) I like the vacuum system on the business end, that's a good idea.

3.) There are so many great CNC milling machines for sale very cheap at auctions right now, I am sure you can find a great deal closer to home with a little more research.

JMO,

Rick
Click to expand...

Are you referring to big footprint machines? Bridgeport style? I look constantly, but I already have a big mill....
 
I guess I can comment on some of your concerns - I have bought a machine from China.

My machine has rack and pinion drive in X,Y and ballscrew in Z. It has so far been working OK but here is some experiences :

The controller is shit. It's a handheld device which used a USB memory stick to transfer the .nc file over. Very unstable and user documentation was shit.
T-slot table is not levelled all over the surface. This could either be milled levelled on the black waist material glued on the surface or do like me - remove it all and do it properly. I installed alu plates in the milling axis and machined it 100% flat after fixed to the T-slot. This makes my 4th axis setup dead nuts and the same with my turning station.

For inlays you could mount for instance a delrin or abs plate in your cut out area - mill it flat and then you are done. If you would like to do larger object you need to remove it all and do it again. The sensible thing to do is to mount some new waist plates and machine them all so the table is 100% levelled for everything.

My spindle is a 2KW Italian HSD spinde running 18k Rpms. I have so far had no issues doing inlay work with it and I have been using 0.7mm end mils. TIR is absolutely ZERO so I have had no issues with that part. My spindle is air cooled by the way - ER collet setup. In all honesty - I have been "not nice" with my spindle and milled deep cuts in alu where the CAD/CAM program was messing up and suddenly starting ramping with a hugh d.o.c. Smoke, oil and one hell of a noise made me almost piss my pants, but it held up and still works. That could have been a very expensive lecture to learn but the Gantry arm is made like tank so no give away there ;-)

The machine uses HIWIN linear rails and they should be greased which I find a little annoying. A oiled setup would be preferred in stead of grease since it's a pain to get to the greasing points - specially on the Z axis.

Issues:
No direct "support" to get - you are on your own. Spare parts - hmm - Mr Google would most likely be the man for me.
Controller was shit.
Table un leveled
Rack and pinion is OK but has some resonanses in X axis with uneven movement. I'm not sure if this is controller issues, greasing issues or mechanical issues. Not as smooth as a balls crew setup but then with large movement like my machine it would require some special setup to support such a long leads crew I guess.

The machine is capable of milling in all materials that I want - including aluminium. However doing so it's a pain due to the fact that the bed would be all greased up in cutting fluid and is a pain in the A to clean. In practical words - you could replicate and design a new CNC with this machine if required..

The machine is a heavy beast and is for sure a little different than the - most likely - light weight versions dedicated to do cue work. More weight = more accuracy. There is a reason why a Haas weights in @ 1-6000 Kg

I was looking at a K2 but after talking to some one which had been tinkering with his K2 for a 1/2 year to make it work - I thought I take the chance on the Chinese.
My machine is built like a mountain compared to the smaller gantry machines I have seen out there. The machine you have pictured seems to use balls crews in all axis which could be a better solution. When it comes to the setup you are looking at I think Royce and other comments is valid. You might need to tinker with a better support for the X axis - it looks a little flimsy.

Locally there are dealers selling similar machines to mine and the prices is freakin scary so you do not always pay for the quality, you pay for some ones greedy pockets..

You should be warned that the threads on CNCzone could some times be a little "to good". The machines is most likely bought from a common sub-manufacturer and then there is some one starting a "company" which is just ordering directly from the sub-manufacturer and then earning some $ in the process down in China. The "company" which sold my machine was shut down - however I have received a email from the same man which now is selling the same or similar machine with a different "company" name.

When you deal with them be very specific and ask about EVERYTHING! Do the questions in a
1: bla bla
2: bla bla
In that way you might get all your questions answered. If you have not asked about it - don't take it for granted that it would be in the package…. Also - don't make sentences with questions after each other because then you don't get everything answered.
This was very frustrating for me since I'm used to get a answer when I ask in a email - this is how things is done in my parts of the world.

If you know your way around machines you could save some money. One fellow buyer down in Australia which bought a similar machine like me but hugh, took it literally down to pieces and built it up again improving on the areas needed (inc re-machining the table). At the end he had a cracking machine which saved him a lot of money but it was not a hit the button solution. I think he even had new racks made to match his pinion gears.
He had some issues squaring the gantry and installed a extra homing sensor to square it up. I have not checked this on my machine, but the guy down under was having a hugh milling area and I think he ended up starting up a company and made parts for a DIY plain...

Would I have done it again ? Hmmm - have to think about that one..

Hope it helped and let me know if you want me to shoot some pics for you. You have my email.

K
 
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Randy. One of the reasons my friend made his own machine was the resolution of the xyz axis. A resolution of .025 mm or .001 inches is just not good enough for a lot of things that you want to look nice or make fit accurately.
As a minimum to make circles and shallow tapered lines, a resolution of .0001 inches is preferred or an even finer resolution.
The other aspect of the machine is it's repeat ability. Quite a lot of machines are not really good at making round shapes to any real accuracy, but it depends on what level of accuracy that you actually require.
When you know that, then you will be better informed in what will work for you.
Neil
 
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