Choosing a Cue - A Heretic's View

Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Maybe I'm a heretic, but I don't believe that a new cue should be chosen based on how it feels to the player, because I don't believe that players really have fixed preferences; I think they like what they're used to and choose new cues that feel like their old ones. And I think this means they can learn to like pretty much any new cue (within reasonable parameters) given a little time and an accepting attitude.

Why does this matter? Because once subjective qualities like "hit" and "balance" are taken out of the equation then a cue can be selected based on objective qualities that actually make a difference in its playability. I think these are pretty much limited to the shaft, and the most important one (maybe the only important one) is squirt - but I don't mean that everybody should want a low-squirt shaft. A player who uses some form of Back Hand English might be more accurate with more squirt while a player who doesn't is likely to be more accurate with less.

Are there other objective cue/shaft qualities that vary significantly and have a definite effect on playability (consistency, for instance)?

Am I the only one who thinks that players will learn to love whatever hit, balance, feedback etc. they play with once they get used to it?

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Maybe I'm a heretic, but I don't believe that a new cue should be chosen based on how it feels to the player, because I don't believe that players really have fixed preferences; I think they like what they're used to and choose new cues that feel like their old ones. And I think this means they can learn to like pretty much any new cue (within reasonable parameters) given a little time and an accepting attitude.

Are there other objective cue/shaft qualities that vary significantly and have a definite effect on playability (consistency, for instance)?

Am I the only one who thinks that players will learn to love whatever hit, balance, feedback etc. they play with once they get used to it?

pj
chgo
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I think this holds for a "First" cue. For a more advanced player or someone who has been playing for a long time with many cues, I believe they probably know what they like and should let that guide them.
 
My story is I started playing pool and my father had a nice collection of cues. I would use one cue for a few days to a week, then use something else, Richard Black, Fred Mali, McDermott, sneaky pete. After about a year I settled on a JossWest, then went to a Schon S-10. I would consider both of those cues to be firm hitting cues. I got pretty good with the Schon (low advanced player) and then quit playing for years. I started playing again about three years ago and pulled out the old Schon and playing once or twice a week the deflection of the Schon was hurting my game. When I was younger and playing hours per day I had no problem with the deflection. Hell, I did not even know what deflection was. Then two years ago an old friend of my fathers (a high advanced player) who is a used cue dealer starts coaching me and tells me I need to try something else.

Of course I put up a fight but he would lend me a cue to use for a day or two. Patrick was right, some of the cues just felt bad but I gave them a chance to see how they played and I noticed I was making more balls with some of the cues I hated at first. Making more balls and better cue ball control. I ended up with a sneaky pete cue from a custom cue builder that had points that were an inch off of being equal, the cue was not a looker but it was a player. With the knowledge of my fathers friend about cues and now knowing what sort of hit I played with the best he suggested I buy a Judd cue and I had a custom Judd cue made for me that looks fantastic and plays even better.
 
I have been playing for 30 or so years now and have collected, sold, bartered a plethora of cues. I play maybe once a week now on a pool league but still buy and sell cues. There are several factors I take into consideration when selecting a player or a keeper. Keepers are just that, cues that go in the safe and rarely see the light of day. Players on the other hand I switch out every 6 months to a year depending on what I happen to come across. Balance is key for me. I like a little forward weight in my shooters. Second would be the "hit" if there really is such a thing that can compare from player to player. I like to feel the shot all the way through the cue. Wood to wood joints are preferred. Lastly shaft taper and mm. I feel more accurate with a 12.5+mm ferrule.
I guess I know what I like when I feel it. Any cue that accentuates my natural stroke and makes shape feel effortless I am shooting with! This month is a plain jane scruggs sneaky. What's next? =)
 
my preferences have changed a lot over the years. i have specs from almost every cue i've ever owned and have a real good idea what i prefer
 
I personally believe there is a quality of feedback (vibration) that is interpreted by pool players as good or bad. This feedback is affected by the taper, tip, ferrule, shaft wood (old-growth, tight grain, etc.), joint, butt wood, and construction techniques. When each of these aspects are high quality and combined with the applied knowledge of a good cuemaker, I believe the feedback is interpreted as good and enjoyable. The frame of reference may be between a McDermott and a Searing, but I really doubt any player would choose the McDermott just because that's what they're used to.

I ordered a Starkey without ever hitting with one before. He sent two old-growth shafts with no ferrule. I hit with one of the shafts and it was extremely appealing to me. I wouldn't hesitate to say it was the most enjoyable feedback I've ever gotten from a cue. The next closest was krbsailing's steel-jointed Scruggs. I'm going to keep the cue because I enjoy the feedback (a LOT). It's very much unlike what I'm used to (OB Classic Pro), so for me I have to disagree.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I think they like what they're used to and choose new cues that feel like their old ones.
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I imagine this statement is true for the most part. A person that has tried many cues in their playing days will eventually "settle" on a cue that they think makes them shoot better, or just has a certain "feel" to them. From that point on, any cue they acquire to PLAY with (to replace their current playing cue), they will try to mimic the qualities of their last playing cue.

FWIW, I have about eight to ten cues, both in my cases and on my wall rack that I play with regularly. Yes, I have a favorite, but I play/practice with them all. I have standard and LD shafts. I have production cues and customs. Different weights/tips/balance points/shaft tapers/pin sizes/joint materials, etc. on all of them. Guess what? I play the same with whatever cue I choose on any particular day. Oh, there are differences in the cues to be sure, but they don't affect my game. I am of the opinion that the cue isn't the difference-maker in whether or not one can shoot a decent game. I've run just as many racks here at home with a $27 Chinese-made cue as I have with my best custom. Go figure!!!

Maniac
 
The stick chooses the person not the other way around. It calls to us and torments us until we give in to the addiction and lies that it will automagically make us better if we by it - at least that is what I have heard at the cue stick anonymous rehab center ;)

I do however think that there is a distinct difference in the cue that seasoned player chooses versus the less seasoned player. I have shot with many sticks including bar sticks and as long as they are straight I dont find myself having to make to many adjustments - this could be because of lack of experience playing at any length with a high dollar cue. We will soon find out as I just purchased my first cue ever. I did not choose because of how it hit or felt though.
 
One can take PJ’s original argument full circle.

First, I agree that player preferences as to “feel” can be very fluid. This is best seen in other sports where playing equipment has significantly evolved. In golf, for example, expert players through the 1980’s would seek out the perfect persimmon driver based largely on “feel”. When metal woods became popular in the 1990’s many of these same players resisted the change until the performance benefits of the metal clubs became obvious.

Of course, the wooden clubs are now completely obsolete. If you ask a good player to hit one (even a player old enough to have past experience with wood) he will typically wonder how he ever played with one. The clubs are unforgiving and the hit feels dead.

All of this lends credence to PJ’s argument about the fluidity of “feel”. What is different about pool, though, is that there is little to no evidence of any real performance benefit arising from a particular shaft taper, tip diameter, joint construction, balance point, etc. The one exception to this, as PJ points out, is the LD shaft.

The adjustment that a player must make when going to an LD shaft goes well beyond adjusting to a different “feel.” To make the transition, a player must learn to aim differently on shots with sidespin. Other threads on AZ have reports of players taking several months before they become comfortable with this adjustment.

I believe that an inexperienced player would do well to start with (or change to) an LD shaft for its performance benefits. Advanced players who recognize the benefit of making smaller compensations for deflection might also reasonably make the switch to an LD shaft. In doing so, they should understand that they are signing up for a potentially difficult period adjustment and that the change may hurt, rather than help, their games for several months.

As to all of the other choices that go into the selection of a cue, players may just as well go with what feels good to them. Assuming certain minimal standards (straight, good tip, reasonably well constructed) there is simply not much objective performance difference among cues. A good comfortable feeling, however, may convince a player that he has finally found his magic wand.


P.S. to Patrick

Patrick Johnson said:
Maybe I'm a heretic...
Click to expand...

I think its been well established that you ARE a heretic.:D:D:D
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
[...]Am I the only one who thinks that players will learn to love whatever hit, balance, feedback etc. they play with once they get used to it?

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

I agree with you. Here is the content I wrote for the the "Do I Need to Buy a Cue?" pamphlet we offer to patrons.

Do I Need to Buy a Cue?
The short answer is NO.

Equipment is less important in pool than it is in car racing, golf, skiing, bicycle racing, or cooking.

One consequence is you can’t buy a better pool game. More importantly though, you don’t need to buy a better pool game.

How Do I Pick a Cue Off the Wall?
Pool cues provided by the establishment are called HOUSE CUES. The main difference between a house cue and an individually owned cue is that the house cue doesn’t come apart.

House cues are all 58 inches long, give or take an inch, and weigh 19 oz, give or take an ounce or two.

The importance of the weight, the length, the balance, and even whether the cue is straight pales in comparison to one criterion: the condition of the leather tip.

Choose a cue for which the tip is not mushroomed like a muffin top. The tip should have the curvature of a nickel.

Why Do People Buy Cues?
One reason is players value consistency
The weight, the balance (distribution of weight), the diameter at the tip, the taper (details of the way the width grows for the first 20 inches or so from the tip), the shape and hardness of the tip, the material the back hand grips (e.g., linen or leather or wood), the acoustic properties of the wood, the stiffness of the shaft (resistance to bending), and how rapidly those vibrations are dampened all contribute to subtle differences in the way different cues feel to the player. Many of these properties contribute to what is called the hit of a cue.

By playing with the same cue every time, a player becomes accustomed to the feedback provided by that cue-the sound and the energy transmitted to the rear hand-and uses this in the learning process.

A second reason is cueball squirt
When a cue strikes a cueball to the right or left of center, the cueball travels away spinning to the right or the left. But there’s a second, undesirable, effect as well. The cueball angles off a small amount opposite the direction of the sidespin. This is called squirt (or cueball deflection) and a player shooting with sidespin must compensate his or her aim for this. The amount of squirt depends on the cue. A consistent cue means consistent aim compensation. Some cues are specifically designed to reduce squirt.

The third reason is most elusive
A player’s cue is the link between past, present, and future at the pool table. It’s been there for the fear and the despair as well as for the joy, the elation, and the pride. Players who have had the experience of feeling in that trance-like state called “the zone” have been known to describe their cue as feeling like an extension to their arm. You may notice a player talking about his cue sometimes like he would talk of an infant child, other times like he would talk of an old army buddy, and, unfortunately, other times like he would talk of the most treacherous of traitors.

How Do I Choose a Cue to Buy?
Because personal preference is key, you must hit with a cue before you buy it. We recommend avoiding both the cheapest cues and the most expensive cues. Low-end cues use ramin wood for the shaft rather than quality maple. You will be disappointed with this. And in a couple years you’ll have a better idea of what you like, so thoughts of a more expensive cue should wait until then.

A price range of about $120 – $500 is about right for your first cue. Beyond that you’re mostly paying for art or for the work of a particularly reputable cuemaker.

While the shafts (front ends) of nearly all quality cues are made of maple, the butts are made from many different beautiful and exotic woods that are spliced together or inlayed into one another. Some of the more common woods are the highly figured birdseye maple, rich black ebony from Africa or even Asia, the dark and beautiful cocobola or the lighter bocote from Central America, purple heart from Central or South America or the nearly white hardwood holly.
 
Would any pool player - particularly American - have Ray Reardon's attitude towards his cue?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB6DLwGHCi8

Ray Reardon - World Champion - six times

I have posted this clip three time.
Each time it has killed the thread.

Can any of the purported thread killers recycle ammo as well as me?:grin:
 
I was going to reference my comments on being close to the younger pool players... but I am an OLD player and everyone is usually younger.. LOL

I guess my associationi with Novice and C players trying to progress to become much better players is my perspective.

The most common question, "how do I get better? quickly?" My stock answer is practicing correctly and table time. A lot of BOTH.

When it comes to cues, I just tell them to get something they like and stick with it untill you feel it is time to get something better.

IMO, Deflection, aka squirt, does have a consideration in purchacing a new/used cue.

Seems everyone that gets a new cue usually ends up defending their purcase expounding their infinite knowledge about the cue and its history.

I love the process and it gets me excited to see the young players improving and showing that 'wow' factor.

I kinda agree Pat, but all to often, IMO, they buy for looks, costs, how much info they can get on the cue (justifiability) and the availability, then maybe the amount of squirt .
 
Scaramouche said:
Would any pool player - particularly American - have Ray Reardon's attitude towards his cue?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB6DLwGHCi8

Ray Reardon - World Champion - six times

I have posted this clip three time.
Each time it has killed the thread.

Can any of the purported thread killers recycle ammo as well as me?:grin:
Click to expand...

I watched this, and noted Reardon saying he didn't make much of a fuss over STRAIGHTNESS.

And that's something I've been trying to think about lately: How important IS straightness. It has always been my impression that it really WASN'T that important. Here's why: I always had the idea that the FORCE applied to the CB is directed in a PERFECTLY STRAIGHT line from your BACK HAND to the tip--even if the cue itself is NOT a straight line over that distance.

I'd love to hear from Bob Jewett/Dr. Dave/Mike Page on that issue: Exactly HOW is the direction of force imparted from the cue onto the CB: Is it in a straight line from the back hand to the CB, or does it "go down the cue," so that if the cue isn't straight, the shot isn't straight?

EDIT: Of course I should add that there ARE clear reasons why one probably wouldn't want to use a cue with the last foot or so of the shaft badly warped--that could disrupt your stroke, and mess with actual contact point on the CB. I'm talking about the actual direction of force that's applied to the CB, that determines the actual shooting line/direction--and whether small imperfections in straightness would have ANY effect at all.
 
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PJ you have some good points. I've only owned about 6 cues in 35 years.

1st Well it was the first. Looks and cost.
2nd Looks,cost and based on the seller recomendation. Wish I never sold it. Huebler
3rd Muecci he was all the rage and I didn't know what I had already.
4th My first carom cue basically given to me.
6th Decided I wanted a true custom. Didn't know what I wanted in a cue though. Left that up to the builder based on our conversations.
Current cue is a bit of a disagreement with your points. I was handed a cue to try out. It was only 14oz but WOW did it play great.
Unfortunately not for sale. After about a year of losing sleep thinking about it I called up my cue builder and told him I wanted one.
To make sure he sent me one he made for himself. I loved it too and could have bought it cheap but vanity got in the way. It was pretty
beat up. So I had him build me one. Plays completely different than the previous one although its an awesome cue.

I'm slowly but surely learning what I really want and am sure there will be another maybe the last cue sometime in the near future.
 
3kushn said:
PJ you have some good points. I've only owned about 6 cues in 35 years.

Snipped for brevity.


I'm slowly but surely learning what I really want and am sure there will be another maybe the last cue sometime in the near future.
Click to expand...

There should never be a choice to have a last cue.

:)
 
Scaramouche said:
Another attempt to kill this thread :D

No magic cue.
Comments on getting a new cue near the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScGkO3GnQ6c
Click to expand...

While it's true that there is no "magic" cue you have kind of missed Ray's point. His point was that you should find what works for you and if you do then that's the magic cue - for you.

Pat Johnson's point was that perhaps there SHOULD be better ways to quantify performance so that a player can know what a certain taper does, what a certain diameter at the tip does, etc....

The relates back to a thread Pat started about whether the pivot point should be marked.

I think it goes both ways.

Once upon a time I was at a tournament in Germany with all my cues laid out for sale. I had about 30 cues for sale. A guy walks up and says to me that he would like a cue that is "weiche" (soft/whippy) like a Meucci and do I have anything like that. I directed him to a Joss which I felt had the closest taper to a Meucci (wasn't really close but the "whippiest" I had). He takes it and comes back a few minutes later complaining that it's too hard. I said well that's the closest I have.

So then he browses a bit more and comes on an import cue (Chinese) with a literal tree-trunk taper. This cue had the thickest shaft I have ever seen. He asks about it and I say take it and try it.

He does and is gone for 30 minutes. When he comes back he declares that this is the best cue he has ever played with and he buys it.

So I think that "performance" in a cue is also subjective because each person handles the cue differently. One person plays with a heavy grip and the other one with a slip stroke, one person is steady and stoic with their stance and delivery and the next is wild and erratic.

Sure the cue itself doesn't change. Or does it? Does the "performance" change with the player? I think that maybe it does and that's why hit is so subjective.

I think that once you start marking up cues with performance indicators then it will really begin to confuse the issue. Also Predator is likely to go out of business when they get lost in a sea of manufacturers all claiming the same performance with whatever construction tweaks they have decided on. And then comes the question of who is supposed to verify all these performance claims? Who is going to buy every cue and verify that the pivot point is where it should be, that the taper is truly a parabolic compound one set at 3GPI?????

All of us who have played for a long time have had the experience of going into a strange pool room and picking a cue off the wall and playing lights out. And most of us have had this experience more than once.

This is not just a happy coincidence of the player getting lucky and picking just the right cue for them off the wall. It's more that the player picks a cue that feels ok and then they forget it and just play. Maybe they focus more on their shots, maybe they just relax more, who knows but it isn't the cue.

Now, that's NOT to say that a player will always play better with a strange cue. While we can all adapt to a new cue fairly quickly I am certain that I can BUST a lot of players if I am allowed to choose their cue for them. I can give them cues that are so far out of their comfort zone that it will mess with their heads.

So like I said both ways. On one hand I think Pat's idea has merit and on the other hand I think it's a potential quagmire of confusion.
 
JB Cases said:
While it's true that there is no "magic" cue you have kind of missed Ray's point. His point was that you should find what works for you and if you do then that's the magic cue - for you.
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You, perhaps, are under the delusion that I believe that the American obsession with cues is rational behaviour.:D

Ronnie O'Sullivan breaks cues for the fun of it, gets a new one, and then goes on to win a tournament, having used the new cue for only a few shots. He replaces the tip during the match.

Watching the UK Championship this week (snooker) one of the BBC commentators was talking about the cue used by Shaun Murphy - very old.
He called it 'lively'.

Poking around the web I found this on the 2005 World Champion:

"Remember Billy Dane, the cartoon character in Roy of the Rovers who had football boots that once belonged to a great player? When he wore them, he played like a god. Murphy’s cue has the same property. His father bought the 80-year-old instrument from a Northamptonshire cue-maker when Murphy was 15. It had once belonged to Ray Reardon, the six-times world champion, and an instant relationship was formed.

“The first time I used it, I got a break of 143,” Murphy said yesterday. “It must have some magical property to it, like a Harry Potter wand.”

“Potter” would be an appropriate nickname for Murphy, whether or not his cue was fashioned by Ollivander, J. K. Rowling’s wand manufacturer. The fluidity of his potting was praised widely last year, with Steve Davis saying that Murphy had “the best cue action I’ve ever seen”. No wonder commentators started giving him the nickname, “The Magician”.

So continue your search for the magical cue :D:D:D

Of course, if you read the full article, you may decide to search elsewhere for your salvation :D:D:D

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/article705739.ece
 
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