CJ Wiley vs Ronnie Wiseman Up Next ACCU STATS 9b Thu 2:30 est

[Masirib5]

Jeff, me too.

I usually play on a GC3 -- that's what I've got available in STL.

But, in the last 15 years I've played in over 10 DCCs, both SCs, and several US Open events, all played on Diamonds.

And my conclusion is that playing on Diamonds is a totally different experience.

Yes, it's the same for both players, and, in a perfect world, you should be able to adjust. But, IMO, unless you are a pro player, you have no chance at a quick adjustment from GCs. (You even have CJ in this thread saying pretty much the same.)

Diamonds play fast, they play short, and the pockets are unforgiving, in a way that even double-shimmed GCs are not. It's not just bank shots, it is any position play off a rail. Put that all together in *an uber competitive situation against high caliber opponents,* switching from one to the other makes you: a dead duck.

Lou Figueroa

Thanks Lou! It must be totally hard to comprehend how great the Filipinos are. There maybe only two Diamonds in the Philippines (Manila) and they play on some good tables like at Star Billiards (Brunswick Metros) and at One Side. But they are all over the place and playing in the worst conditions including tables with concrete beds instead of slate.

--Jeff

 

[lfigueroa]

Thanks Lou! It must be totally hard to comprehend how great the Filipinos are. There maybe only two Diamonds in the Philippines (Manila) and they play on some good tables like at Star Billiards (Brunswick Metros) and at One Side. But they are all over the place and playing in the worst conditions including tables with concrete beds instead of slate.

--Jeff

If you are a pro, it must be part of your tool kit to be able to adjust to anything and everything. But, even so, because you are a pro, you are most likely getting far more exposure in your travels to Diamonds, than many other players.

For the other 98% of us, it it's excruciatingly difficult (and costly). That's the boat most of us are in and it's the reason I say Diamonds and GCs are like night and day.

This is not aimed at you, but, it all too easy to sit behind a keyboard and say the tables are the same and/or players should be able to adjust. My 15 years of experience trying to do it tells me otherwise.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Masirib5]

If you are a pro, it must be part of your tool kit to be able to adjust to anything and everything. But, even so, because you are a pro, you are most likely getting far more exposure in your travels to Diamonds, than many other players.

For the other 98% of us, it it's excruciatingly difficult (and costly). That's the boat most of us are in and it's the reason I say Diamonds and GCs are like night and day.

This is not aimed at you, but, it all too easy to sit behind a keyboard and say the tables are the same and/or players should be able to adjust. My 15 years of experience trying to do it tells me otherwise.

Lou Figueroa

Thanks for not saying it is aimed at me! And just to be clear, I don't just sit behind a keyboard (although it seems that way sometimes!!! Ha). And I'm not saying they are the same.

We each have our own experiences as players. In Manila I adjusted to the Diamond at Makati Cinema Square Puyat Superbowl, very well. Within a couple games of One Pocket, I figured out pretty well. I was playing Rudolfo Luat there in 2010. I'm a pretty good amature. I could not compete with a pro in any serious situation, but I liked the Diamond for sure.

--Jeff

 

[thewhiffer]

The "model" of these tournaments has certainly changed, now it seems the emphasis is on getting as many players as possible. I remember (when promoting tournaments) only being concerned with getting as many spectators as possible. I would rather see 16 players with 500 spectators than 500 players with 16 spectators. 'The Game is the Teacher'

An interesting point and something for those who would breath life back into the game to remember.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Diamonds demand accuracy and an excellent touch for softer shots.

CJ I understand and agee what you are saying but I see Dennis O and Shane playing really great and firing in shots and playing soft shots and they hardly miss on Diamonds.

To me you are the pinnacle of teaching and table knowledge and you were one of the best players ever during your peak. It is hard for me to disagree and to hear you say that someone advised you to not use draw as much. I just can't see you not figuring out what you need to do by yourself. You are the master of disecting anything.

But I guess even the best have a difficult time determining what is best. That is why there are teachers in pro sports.

--Jeff

Yes, Jeff, the tables can be adjusted to quickly when the player's game is sharp, however, the angles and speed are so different that it forces another "pool program" to develop and that takes some time. When a player is in "dead stroke" the transition would take much less time......I've seen both sides of this "coin".

As far as the advice about drawing the ball less and go to less rails for position, that's not something that goes into a "game plan". I would draw the cue ball anytime it's needed although the point was more about a softer pocket speed which requires less draw. I think the Gold Crown requires a better stroke, but the Diamonds demand accuracy and an excellent touch for softer shots.

 

[backplaying]

In my experience, there aren't that many differences between a GC and a Diamond. Cloth is cloth so you have to just hit some balls to be able to adjust speed as well as how fast the cushions rebound. Hit some test shots and see if the table banks short or long and then remember it when you play. I see so many pros miss banks shots on a Diamond by hitting them short.

I would think that since Diamonds are set up at the factory and most mechanics don't change the angle of the facings when replacing the rubber, playing on Diamonds should be way more consistant than Gold Crowns that have been hammered by mechanics replacing old rubber and changing to different rubber over the years and if there are many Gold Crowns in a pool hall, a lot of them play very differently.

You would have to have been a real player to understand.!

 

[backplaying]

Yes, it was apparent to everyone that has seen me play before that something was wrong, and it wasn't just my pool game...... Hunter Lombardo told me the "constructive criticism" in the kindest, gentlest way - "CJ, if you don't lose 20 pounds you'll never play your highest speed again".....AMEN! 'The Game is the Teacher'

I think you know it depends on your mind set and that is the main factor. If you loose that killer, that's something no one can teach! I disagree with you being overweight as the main problem. If you dedicate yourself 12 hours a day and the mental part is not there nothing else will help!

 

[Masirib5]

You would have to have been a real player to understand.!

Back.. a real player? what does that mean?

 

[backplaying]

Absolutely nothing could be further from the truth.

Lou Figueroa

Thanks Lou for trying to educate those who have no idea!

 

[CJ Wiley]

makes perfect pool possible.

I think you know it depends on your mind set and that is the main factor. If you loose that killer, that's something no one can teach! I disagree with you being overweight as the main problem. If you dedicate yourself 12 hours a day and the mental part is not there nothing else will help!

For me the physical must come first. Once I'm hitting the cue ball and aligning precisely everything else takes it's place. The Game of pool isn't what's difficult, it's relatively easy, it's the pre shot routine that makes perfect pool possible......say that three times fast.

I can't imagine practicing 12 hours a day.....2-3 hours a day on a Diamond would make a huge difference, there's just no public tables in Dallas/Ft. Worth.

 

[backplaying]

Yes, I agree, the Diamonds are different and require a different style of game than the Gold Crown's. You have to slow roll a lot more balls and I was advised to "draw my cue ball" much less on the Diamonds. The harder "shot speed" is not an advantage on the Diamond pockets like they are on Gold Crowns.....quite the contrary.

"When is Rome do as the Romans" - the fact is the 'Diamond Game' can be learned by any professional player. The "Race to 9" winner break/rack your own is a bit quick so you better have the table mastered by the lag or it may be too late. 'The Game is the Teacher'

But the other players have many years of playing on the diamond than you. Myself, I quit in the early 90's, started back around 2008. That's a pretty good head start!!!! I can actually count the times I have played on a 9ft diamond. Let me put it another way, if anyone has beat me on a diamond you have the same game on a goldcrown. That includes Cliff and Josh that beat me at the southern classic.

 

[backplaying]

Apparently you aren't aware of a certain someones posting history on here. It's not okay on here to disagree with the pros. They have a tendency to lash out at constructive criticism, make fun of you, belittle you, and then six months later when another pro tells them the same thing, they thank the other pro for the great info. Not worth bothering with it at all.

Come on Neil, as someone who I've been told can really play, you know that's not true. I agree with many of your post and hope you can at least give CJ the benefit I think he deserves. Neil, believe me, if you knew how much this guy likes to teach you would reconsider.

 

[backplaying]

For me the physical must come first. Once I'm hitting the cue ball and aligning precisely everything else takes it's place. The Game of pool isn't what's difficult, it's relatively easy, it's the pre shot routine that makes perfect pool possible......say that three times fast.

I can't imagine practicing 12 hours a day.....2-3 hours a day on a Diamond would make a huge difference, there's just no public tables in Dallas/Ft. Worth.

Come on CJ, the mental part is the most important part after reaching a high level, agree?

 

[backplaying]

If you are a pro, it must be part of your tool kit to be able to adjust to anything and everything. But, even so, because you are a pro, you are most likely getting far more exposure in your travels to Diamonds, than many other players.

For the other 98% of us, it it's excruciatingly difficult (and costly). That's the boat most of us are in and it's the reason I say Diamonds and GCs are like night and day.

This is not aimed at you, but, it all too easy to sit behind a keyboard and say the tables are the same and/or players should be able to adjust. My 15 years of experience trying to do it tells me otherwise.

Lou Figueroa

Lou, you can always put it in a much better way. I'm glad I'm not the only one who see's diamond pool and goldcrown pool as a different game. I guess you have to be over 50 to understand and not have access to a diamond to understand.

 

[AtLarge]

... But, in the last 15 years I've played in over 10 DCCs, both SCs, and several US Open events, all played on Diamonds.

And my conclusion is that playing on Diamonds is a totally different experience. ...

It's pretty widely accepted that Diamond tables manufactured up until a couple years ago did bank shorter than standard Gold Crowns. But that issue was addressed by Diamond and the newer tables bear a blue sticker instead of the old red sticker to indicate the changes made. And some of the older red-sticker tables around the country have had their rails "recalibrated" to conform to the new Diamond standard.

The Diamond tables used at pro events in the recent past would have the newer-design rails.

Lou, are you saying the Diamonds you have encountered in big events for the past year or two still bank short (compared with a standard, unmodified Gold Crown)? Do you notice a difference in them now versus 10 years ago?

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou, you can always put it in a much better way. I'm glad I'm not the only one who see's diamond pool and goldcrown pool as a different game. I guess you have to be over 50 to understand and not have access to a diamond to understand.

That's for sure.

i play on Diamonds three times a year: DCC, SC, and the 1Pocket Open. Maybe I come across one in my non-pool related travels and sneak some time in, but that's it. If pool were more than something I do for recreation I'd have to get one to be competitive.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

It's pretty widely accepted that Diamond tables manufactured up until a couple years ago did bank shorter than standard Gold Crowns. But that issue was addressed by Diamond and the newer tables bear a blue sticker instead of the old red sticker to indicate the changes made. And some of the older red-sticker tables around the country have had their rails "recalibrated" to conform to the new Diamond standard.

The Diamond tables used at pro events in the recent past would have the newer-design rails.

Lou, are you saying the Diamonds you have encountered in big events for the past year or two still bank short (compared with a standard, unmodified Gold Crown)? Do you notice a difference in them now versus 10 years ago?

AL, my recollection is that 10 years ago all Diamonds played very short. And then there seemed to be a period the last few years were they played much more like a GC.

For me, this last event at the SC, was a throw back. The tables that I played on played extremely short. I do wish I had paid attention and checked the labels, but I think, but am not sure, the tables were blue labels. I don't know if all the tournament tables had been retrofitted, or were the new ones coming out of the factory, or old ones, or a mix. All I know is that it was like my first DCC this year at the SC -- I just could not get the ball wide enough and the rails were super fast.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Neil]

AL, my recollection is that 10 years ago all Diamonds played very short. And then there seemed to be a period the last few years were they played much more like a GC.

For me, this last event at the SC, was a throw back. The tables that I played on played extremely short. I do wish I had paid attention and checked the labels, but I think, but am not sure, the tables were blue labels. I don't know if all the tournament tables had been retrofitted, or were the new ones coming out of the factory, or old ones, or a mix. All I know is that it was like my first DCC this year at the SC -- I just could not get the ball wide enough and the rails were super fast.

Lou Figueroa

What I find weird with the diamonds here is that if you slow roll a ball into the rail, it acts like a pin-ball machine. But, if you actually hit it harder into the rail, it comes off the rail slower than actually hitting the rail slow. Very hard to adjust to when they do that. And, even the blue diamonds still bank short.

Diamonds have advantages, and disadvantages. I don't think they are better than a GC, just different. I like the pockets better on a Diamond, but the rails are worse.

 

[CJ Wiley]

The remedy was adjusting my forearm/wrist/cue angle slightly,

Come on CJ, the mental part is the most important part after reaching a high level, agree?

I believe the mental part is the final 10% (of a player's development), and the physical part is the first 90% of someone's game. Without physically hitting the cue ball EXACT, the mental part will primarily be dealing with frustration and compensation. My strength is in that final 10%, however, if there's something physically/visually incongruent, the "mental game" won't matter. This is a major reason professional athletes need coaches and trainers.

When I'm hitting the cue ball precisely the table doesn't play much of a factor - when I'm not it's more difficult to play on unfamiliar equipment. I was addressing the cue ball slightly left at Tunica and it was difficult for me to adjust because my "center" has physically changed.

To play at the World Class level I must address the cue ball directly square to my line of vision or the cue ball won't be hit 100% accurately, and this prevents me from playing the game unconsciously. For my game this is a critical factor.

The remedy was adjusting my forearm/wrist/cue angle slightly, Hunter Lombardo is the one that saw this and worked with me to make changes, however, it wasn't a "one day" fix, it took me almost two weeks to incorporate the correct grip fundamentals. Now It's natural again, although my grip is not something I would teach others to emulate, it's from a tennis background and when I do it correctly it keeps the cue exactly on line every time. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

calling "streaming video" TV - it's like calling a bicycle a "Harley"

An interesting point and something for those who would breath life back into the game to remember.

Yes, I don't think it's possible to adjust to the lack of spectators these days. It seems like they're more interested in streaming free video than attracting live people. It appears to have sucked the life out of the events for the professionals. Anything given away for free does damage in many ways - quality, quantity, and economically in most cases.

It's very easy notice {at the major events} there's no "new blood" coming into the game these days. ESPN is the key to connecting to the minds of the general public and "TV Tables" with no TV is confusing. No matter how many times they tell me that streaming video is TV I will always wonder why...I feel like I should tell them, but at the same time I feel they want to think it is TV (it's like saying there's no Santa Claus LoL).....but no matter how you slice it, "TV is what it is, not what it isn't."

I wonder who started calling computers "TVs" in the pool world? It's kind of embarrassing. calling "streaming video" TV - it's like calling a bicycle a "Harley" - it's close, but not quite the same. Maybe we should call it the "Movie Table," that way we may be eligible for an Academy Award. 'The Game is the Teacher'