cocobolo vs rose wood
- Thread starter Sambo
- Start date
There are many types of woods in the rosewood family, Bolivian, East Indian, etc, and I believe coco Is actually a type of rosewood It'self, altough not commonly called one. As far as adding value, some are more expensive then others to buy, so other then that not sure how much difference in finished price. That might would depend on the maker and what He has in the cue. There are varying opinions as to which has the best feel. Some are more oily the others, and must be sealed well to protect the finish. I like the feel of most I have tried, but since feel is such a subjective topic, I would think It would depend on who You talk to.
cocobolo
IIRC cocobolo is the true rosewood of the family dalbergia I'll check in my wood species book when I go out to the shop in a minute. The rest that you named may not actually be in the rosewood family. One of the problems with using common names instead of scientific names is this issue here. I'll check and repost later.
Brian in VA
Cue Crazy said:There are many types of woods in the rosewood family, Bolivian, East Indian, etc, and I believe coco Is actually a type of rosewood It'self, altough not commonly called one. As far as adding value, some are more expensive then others to buy, so other then that not sure how much difference in finished price. That might would depend on the maker and what He has in the cue. There are varying opinions as to which has the best feel. Some are more oily the others, and must be sealed well to protect the finish. I like the feel of most I have tried, but since feel is such a subjective topic, I would think It would depend on who You talk to.
IIRC cocobolo is the true rosewood of the family dalbergia I'll check in my wood species book when I go out to the shop in a minute. The rest that you named may not actually be in the rosewood family. One of the problems with using common names instead of scientific names is this issue here. I'll check and repost later.
Brian in VA
A Rosewood by any other name
As mentioned previously Cocobolo is one of the"true Rosewoods",
a member of the Dalbergia genus.
these days, wheh someone uses the generic term "rosewood", they most likely are refering to Indian Rosewood, an excellent cue wood,
extremely stable and easy to turn. It varies in color from light brown, similar to American walnut, to almost black, dark purpleish brown.
not as dense, nor as hard as Cocobolo.
Cocobolo is aprox as heavy and hard as Ebony<of which there are also
several species>usually more impressive in appearence, often with
wild grain/figure/color variations, it varies from dark, blood red to
orange/purple 'stripey', and just about everything in between.
Price compare
I would charge a bit more for Coco vs Rosewood
resell - typically Coco would resell for more - YMMV
Dale Pierce
Sambo said:
As mentioned previously Cocobolo is one of the"true Rosewoods",
a member of the Dalbergia genus.
these days, wheh someone uses the generic term "rosewood", they most likely are refering to Indian Rosewood, an excellent cue wood,
extremely stable and easy to turn. It varies in color from light brown, similar to American walnut, to almost black, dark purpleish brown.
not as dense, nor as hard as Cocobolo.
Cocobolo is aprox as heavy and hard as Ebony<of which there are also
several species>usually more impressive in appearence, often with
wild grain/figure/color variations, it varies from dark, blood red to
orange/purple 'stripey', and just about everything in between.
Price compare
I would charge a bit more for Coco vs Rosewood
resell - typically Coco would resell for more - YMMV
Dale Pierce
According to Tony... The differences between Cocobola and Rosewood are weight and stability. Comparable in character, Rosewood is far more exotic in appearance, but far more unstable. Rosewood is considered to be far more desirable as a veneer. Great craftsman of the 1800's veneer Rosewood on a stable base, like oak, to produce some of the finest furniture ever made. Rosewood can be used as an accent in a cue, but not a major component.
The Black Boar Historian
The Black Boar Historian
Stable Oak?
Oak is one of the least stable hardwoods available unless quartersawn which is far more expensive and unlikely to be veneered. The craftsman of the 18th century veneered rosewood to poplar not oak.
And cocobolo is rosewood. I assume you mean the difference between indian rosewood and cocobolo rosewood. The difference here is not unlike american black walnut and claro walnut. While they look as if they are related, they are not in the same genus. Please use correct terminology. It makes it easier to understand.
Brian in VA
bbhistorian said:
Oak is one of the least stable hardwoods available unless quartersawn which is far more expensive and unlikely to be veneered. The craftsman of the 18th century veneered rosewood to poplar not oak.
And cocobolo is rosewood. I assume you mean the difference between indian rosewood and cocobolo rosewood. The difference here is not unlike american black walnut and claro walnut. While they look as if they are related, they are not in the same genus. Please use correct terminology. It makes it easier to understand.
Brian in VA
Sambo said:
As many posters have stated above my post that Cocobolo is from the Rosewood Family, the main difference between the two is Toxicity. Cocobolo has a much greater oil / sap content than the other woods from the Rosewood family.
Cocobolo is also very toxic if the dust is breathed in during cue construction. It can cause some people to cough up blood in rare cases, it also has the ability to cause mild to intense skin irritations in some people.
However, both woods are dense and make stable components for cues
By the way, value of either of these woods will depend on where the wood is from and how figured the wood is. The most expensive of the two currently was very common in the past, and is in high demand again, and this is Brazilian Rosewood. The Brazilian Government stopped LEGALexportation of it many years ago. Some people consider this to be the best quality Rosewood ever, however, I am uncertain that the true quality is the main fact, I suspect that the scarcity has more to do with the current prices.
Have a nice day!!!!!!
Manwon
I was recently watching a show where researchers were mapping different species of wild life and plants down around bolivia. One of the researchers mentioned rosewoods becoming rare, and talked as if there were more then one species in that area alone that they were looking to find.
Funny thing I would have thought areas were cleared mostly for the hardwoods as they are in some other areas, but actually from what they said Alot of places have been stripped more for soy bean farms, and It was harder to find the more dense untouched areas due to that.
Funny thing I would have thought areas were cleared mostly for the hardwoods as they are in some other areas, but actually from what they said Alot of places have been stripped more for soy bean farms, and It was harder to find the more dense untouched areas due to that.
Rosewood is a very large category of woods and Cocobolo is one of the rosewoods. Bocote is even called Mexican Rosewood at times. There are other rosewoods that are just as heavy if not heavier than Cocobolo. Most are lighter somewhat. Some are even light enough to make a one piece butt out of, like select pieces of East Indies Rosewood and Bubinga and Pau Ferra (aka Santos Rosewood) just to name a few. They all have different feels and hits to them. Cocobolo is considered a tone wood which means it make a sound when struck and can be used in some musical instruments. Some other rosewoods are tone woods and some are not. I have built cues out of all the rosewoods mentioned in this post.
Bocote has a nice hit and compresses slightly giving a little cueball action. Forth heaviest.
Brazilian and Honduran Rosewood a little lighter than Cocobolo, but has a flater hit more like ebony. 2nd and 3rd heaviest.
Bubinga and Pau Ferra both play with a nice medium hard hit. These are slightly heavier than East Indies normally.
Cocobolo produces some end compression giving a little cue ball action. It is probably the heaviest wood that still has that action producing hit instead of the flatter hit ebony and other hard dense woods give. Heaviest among the seven.
East Indies rosewood plays the closest to maple but a little harder hit. Lightest of the seven rosewoods.
Chris
www.hightowercues.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
Bocote has a nice hit and compresses slightly giving a little cueball action. Forth heaviest.
Brazilian and Honduran Rosewood a little lighter than Cocobolo, but has a flater hit more like ebony. 2nd and 3rd heaviest.
Bubinga and Pau Ferra both play with a nice medium hard hit. These are slightly heavier than East Indies normally.
Cocobolo produces some end compression giving a little cue ball action. It is probably the heaviest wood that still has that action producing hit instead of the flatter hit ebony and other hard dense woods give. Heaviest among the seven.
East Indies rosewood plays the closest to maple but a little harder hit. Lightest of the seven rosewoods.
Chris
www.hightowercues.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
not exactly
Are you sure that tony didn't know that Cocobolo is a Rosewood?
as far as the veneering goes, that was done to save money, not to achieve stability
BTW Indian Rosewood is perhaps the MOST stable wood known
So stable in fact that classic/traditional woodworking instruments were
made of it
Various rosewood species have been used for decades as major cue
components.
I have an antique house cue with a Brazilian Rosewood butt that is
at least 80 yrs old and is still straight as a rifle barrel
I don't mean to be harsh, but you might want to do a bit more fact checking. Google can point you to tons of information
HTH
Dale Pierce
bbhistorian said:
Are you sure that tony didn't know that Cocobolo is a Rosewood?
as far as the veneering goes, that was done to save money, not to achieve stability
BTW Indian Rosewood is perhaps the MOST stable wood known
So stable in fact that classic/traditional woodworking instruments were
made of it
Various rosewood species have been used for decades as major cue
components.
I have an antique house cue with a Brazilian Rosewood butt that is
at least 80 yrs old and is still straight as a rifle barrel
I don't mean to be harsh, but you might want to do a bit more fact checking. Google can point you to tons of information
HTH
Dale Pierce
Cocobolo
Botanical name; dalbergia retusa-not to be confused with the more plain Mexican variety of cocobolo (dalbergia granadillo) which is much lower quality.
The following chart represents relative density of a variety of woods. Cocobolo is the second most dense wood in the world, Ironwood being the most dense of all. The good stuff comes from Nicaragua and Costa Rica.
Balsa .11
Pine .36
Alder .38
Redwood .40
Cedar .42
Mahogany .45
Laurel .47
Cherry .50
Elm .50
Fir, Douglas .50
Magnolia .50
Walnut .53
Teak .56
Goncalco Alves .56
Birch .60
Maple .63
Beech .64
Oak .65
Rosewood, Bolivian .71
Rosewood, E. Indian .78
Ebony .960 - 1.1
Water 1.00
Cocobolo 1.10
Ironwood 1.30
Botanical name; dalbergia retusa-not to be confused with the more plain Mexican variety of cocobolo (dalbergia granadillo) which is much lower quality.
The following chart represents relative density of a variety of woods. Cocobolo is the second most dense wood in the world, Ironwood being the most dense of all. The good stuff comes from Nicaragua and Costa Rica.
Balsa .11
Pine .36
Alder .38
Redwood .40
Cedar .42
Mahogany .45
Laurel .47
Cherry .50
Elm .50
Fir, Douglas .50
Magnolia .50
Walnut .53
Teak .56
Goncalco Alves .56
Birch .60
Maple .63
Beech .64
Oak .65
Rosewood, Bolivian .71
Rosewood, E. Indian .78
Ebony .960 - 1.1
Water 1.00
Cocobolo 1.10
Ironwood 1.30
Last edited:
that density post is a great post, reminds me about in 1990 Jerry at South West had a hard back book on woods each page talked about the density, where it comes from, how fast it grows, where it comes from and had large colored pictures of the differences in grain in some woods and only one picture it the wool all looked the same, i read it for about an hour, wish i would have written down the ISBN number, i would love to have a copy of it now, i have awalys loved exotic woods, even when they are used for things other than cues. It was a thick book maybe 1,25-1.5" inches thick it had every wood there is, many were useless for cues.
This talk about the toxicity of cocobola made me think of something funny-
"Hey, your cue is just a plain butt made out of cocobola, why did you pay five grand for it?"
"Well it took four cuemakers to finish it."
"Why?!"
"Because it killed the first three."
"Hey, your cue is just a plain butt made out of cocobola, why did you pay five grand for it?"
"Well it took four cuemakers to finish it."
"Why?!"
"Because it killed the first three."
Brazilian rosewood because it's rare and now illegal is very pricey, so a cue made from this wood should be a little more than a cocobolo cue. Brazilian rosewood is a very stable rosewood, and it looks fantastic. I am a huge fan of gaboon ebony, but braz. rosewood would be my second choice. You can use MOP, abalone, or ivory and it looks very good in braz. rosewood. Some of the nicest old cues, Bushka, Boti, BBC are braz rosewood.
Some cocobolo is very orange, and I am not a fan of it. The darker stuff is more in tune to what I like to see in a cue. The only thing that goes good with bacote IMHO is gas and a match. I cannot stand it, I don't know why, but I am bacote prejudice.. lol When I buy and trade cues, I am species profiling and bacote is OUT.
JV
Some cocobolo is very orange, and I am not a fan of it. The darker stuff is more in tune to what I like to see in a cue. The only thing that goes good with bacote IMHO is gas and a match. I cannot stand it, I don't know why, but I am bacote prejudice.. lol When I buy and trade cues, I am species profiling and bacote is OUT.
JV
Great comments. Didn't realize that bacote was in the rosewood family. Seems to be a big variety of color and grains for both the cocobolo and Brazilian rosewood. Personally the reddish swirly coco is my favorite.
Cocobolo is very toxic. I heard that a woodworker made a toilet seat out of his favorite wood. The finish didn't properly seal the wood and his family wound up with a big U shaped nasty rashes on their butts!
View attachment 33240 Cocobolo
View attachment 33242 Rosewood
Cocobolo is very toxic. I heard that a woodworker made a toilet seat out of his favorite wood. The finish didn't properly seal the wood and his family wound up with a big U shaped nasty rashes on their butts!
View attachment 33240 Cocobolo
View attachment 33242 Rosewood
Last edited:
I try to learn a little about different cue woods, and woods in general, so I will offer up a post here.
Rosewood is used a lot for different woods. Bubinga is called African rosewood sometimes. Some woods that are not true ebonies are called ebony. In general, I would prefer that to not be the case. It makes it harder to communicate with people and be sure of what each wood really is.
The last categories of scientific classification are Genus species.
Case in point, and several already pointed this out, cocobolo is Dalbergia retusa. Dalbergia is in the genus reserved for what are "true rosewoods". If a tree is in the Dalbergia genus, it is a rosewood. If it is not, it is not a rosewood, despite what it is called.
Lets look at a complete taxonomy heirarchy.
Kingdom - Phylum - Class - Order - Family - Genus - species.
You hear a lot of mention about so and so wood is in the same class or family as rosewood. I have heard someone advertising a certain wood as in the same class as ebony. Well, Class is way the heck up the chain, and family is usually very very large by itself. There are probably hundreds of woods in the Genus Dalbergia, and thousands in the family that rosewoods belong in. Two trees/woods in the same family may be very very different, and making a comparison because of this IMO is weak. I feel it is at least in part a marketing strategy.
Someone mentioned granadillo. Well, the granadillo found in Mexico is in the Platymiscium genus. It is in the same family as rosewoods, but it is not a true rosewood. Calling it Dalbergia granadillo is only for marketing purposes. Some vendors may list it that way, but in my opinion they should not. It is either cocobolo, or granadillo, period.
There is another tree called granadillo found in the US, that is genus Caesilpinia. It is not the same granadillo in Mexico. Because there are common names shared, it is even more confusing when vendors call woods other woods for marketing.
Another example of rosewood that is not a rosewood is Bolivian rosewood. It is not a true rosewood, but Bolivian rosewood (Machaerium genus) sells better than Morado (its common name).
The persimmon tree has little commercial value other than as a fruiting ornamental. I am sure some of you are aware of this, but the persimmon tree is in the genus Diospyros. It is a true ebony, but because there is no real commercial value, it is not generally called ebony. Granadillo is sometimes called brown ebony, a rare tree from Brazil is called Brazilian ebony, a tree in deep south of Texas is called Texas ebony, and none of them are true ebonies. But because they are dark and hard, they are called ebony so people will say wow...ebony. Sometimes this cannot be helped, and sometimes the common name given to a tree bears that name from the beginning like Texas ebony. But in the case of calling Bubinga African rosewood, Bubinga already has a common name.
I am anal about it because when I see a wood in a cue, I want to know for sure what it is, and where it came from (sometimes vendors don't even know), so my apologies if this is too much info.
Kelly
Rosewood is used a lot for different woods. Bubinga is called African rosewood sometimes. Some woods that are not true ebonies are called ebony. In general, I would prefer that to not be the case. It makes it harder to communicate with people and be sure of what each wood really is.
The last categories of scientific classification are Genus species.
Case in point, and several already pointed this out, cocobolo is Dalbergia retusa. Dalbergia is in the genus reserved for what are "true rosewoods". If a tree is in the Dalbergia genus, it is a rosewood. If it is not, it is not a rosewood, despite what it is called.
Lets look at a complete taxonomy heirarchy.
Kingdom - Phylum - Class - Order - Family - Genus - species.
You hear a lot of mention about so and so wood is in the same class or family as rosewood. I have heard someone advertising a certain wood as in the same class as ebony.
Well, Class is way the heck up the chain, and family is usually very very large by itself. There are probably hundreds of woods in the Genus Dalbergia, and thousands in the family that rosewoods belong in. Two trees/woods in the same family may be very very different, and making a comparison because of this IMO is weak. I feel it is at least in part a marketing strategy. Someone mentioned granadillo. Well, the granadillo found in Mexico is in the Platymiscium genus. It is in the same family as rosewoods, but it is not a true rosewood. Calling it Dalbergia granadillo is only for marketing purposes. Some vendors may list it that way, but in my opinion they should not. It is either cocobolo, or granadillo, period.
There is another tree called granadillo found in the US, that is genus Caesilpinia. It is not the same granadillo in Mexico. Because there are common names shared, it is even more confusing when vendors call woods other woods for marketing.
Another example of rosewood that is not a rosewood is Bolivian rosewood. It is not a true rosewood, but Bolivian rosewood (Machaerium genus) sells better than Morado (its common name).
The persimmon tree has little commercial value other than as a fruiting ornamental. I am sure some of you are aware of this, but the persimmon tree is in the genus Diospyros. It is a true ebony, but because there is no real commercial value, it is not generally called ebony. Granadillo is sometimes called brown ebony, a rare tree from Brazil is called Brazilian ebony, a tree in deep south of Texas is called Texas ebony, and none of them are true ebonies. But because they are dark and hard, they are called ebony so people will say wow...ebony. Sometimes this cannot be helped, and sometimes the common name given to a tree bears that name from the beginning like Texas ebony. But in the case of calling Bubinga African rosewood, Bubinga already has a common name.
I am anal about it because when I see a wood in a cue, I want to know for sure what it is, and where it came from (sometimes vendors don't even know), so my apologies if this is too much info.
Kelly
