cocobolo vs rose wood

cuetechasaurus said:
This talk about the toxicity of cocobola made me think of something funny-

"Hey, your cue is just a plain butt made out of cocobola, why did you pay five grand for it?"

"Well it took four cuemakers to finish it."

"Why?!"

"Because it killed the first three."

:D

That's not far from wrong!!!!!!:eek: :eek: :p :D

Manwon
 
Here are some photo's of wood that I recently picked up. The darker Cocobolo is Brazilian, and the Lighter Cocobolo is Mexican. Both have streaks or sections of Branch wood mixed in with them.

To me this just gives the wood more character, I have also included a photo of the butt of a conversion cue that I used some of this wood in.

2.jpg

5.jpg

1.jpg

Thanks

Manwon
 
A Voice of reason!

Kelly_Guy said:
I try to learn a little about different cue woods, and woods in general, so I will offer up a post here.

Rosewood is used a lot for different woods. Bubinga is called African rosewood sometimes. Some woods that are not true ebonies are called ebony. In general, I would prefer that to not be the case. It makes it harder to communicate with people and be sure of what each wood really is.

The last categories of scientific classification are Genus species.

Case in point, and several already pointed this out, cocobolo is Dalbergia retusa. Dalbergia is in the genus reserved for what are "true rosewoods". If a tree is in the Dalbergia genus, it is a rosewood. If it is not, it is not a rosewood, despite what it is called.

Lets look at a complete taxonomy heirarchy.
Kingdom - Phylum - Class - Order - Family - Genus - species.
You hear a lot of mention about so and so wood is in the same class or family as rosewood. I have heard someone advertising a certain wood as in the same class as ebony. :confused: Well, Class is way the heck up the chain, and family is usually very very large by itself. There are probably hundreds of woods in the Genus Dalbergia, and thousands in the family that rosewoods belong in. Two trees/woods in the same family may be very very different, and making a comparison because of this IMO is weak. I feel it is at least in part a marketing strategy.

Someone mentioned granadillo. Well, the granadillo found in Mexico is in the Platymiscium genus. It is in the same family as rosewoods, but it is not a true rosewood. Calling it Dalbergia granadillo is only for marketing purposes. Some vendors may list it that way, but in my opinion they should not. It is either cocobolo, or granadillo, period.

There is another tree called granadillo found in the US, that is genus Caesilpinia. It is not the same granadillo in Mexico. Because there are common names shared, it is even more confusing when vendors call woods other woods for marketing.

Another example of rosewood that is not a rosewood is Bolivian rosewood. It is not a true rosewood, but Bolivian rosewood (Machaerium genus) sells better than Morado (its common name).

The persimmon tree has little commercial value other than as a fruiting ornamental. I am sure some of you are aware of this, but the persimmon tree is in the genus Diospyros. It is a true ebony, but because there is no real commercial value, it is not generally called ebony. Granadillo is sometimes called brown ebony, a rare tree from Brazil is called Brazilian ebony, a tree in deep south of Texas is called Texas ebony, and none of them are true ebonies. But because they are dark and hard, they are called ebony so people will say wow...ebony. Sometimes this cannot be helped, and sometimes the common name given to a tree bears that name from the beginning like Texas ebony. But in the case of calling Bubinga African rosewood, Bubinga already has a common name.

I am anal about it because when I see a wood in a cue, I want to know for sure what it is, and where it came from (sometimes vendors don't even know), so my apologies if this is too much info. :eek: :D :eek:

Kelly
Thank you! You went into far more detail but clarified everything beautifully! At this point, it's mostly marketing. Reps for you!

Brian in Va
 
no such thing as too much information...

Kelly_Guy said:
I try to learn a little about different cue woods, and woods in general, so I will offer up a post here.

Rosewood is used a lot for different woods. Bubinga is called African rosewood sometimes. Some woods that are not true ebonies are called ebony. In general, I would prefer that to not be the case. It makes it harder to communicate with people and be sure of what each wood really is.

The last categories of scientific classification are Genus species.

Case in point, and several already pointed this out, cocobolo is Dalbergia retusa. Dalbergia is in the genus reserved for what are "true rosewoods". If a tree is in the Dalbergia genus, it is a rosewood. If it is not, it is not a rosewood, despite what it is called.

Lets look at a complete taxonomy heirarchy.
Kingdom - Phylum - Class - Order - Family - Genus - species.
You hear a lot of mention about so and so wood is in the same class or family as rosewood. I have heard someone advertising a certain wood as in the same class as ebony. :confused: Well, Class is way the heck up the chain, and family is usually very very large by itself. There are probably hundreds of woods in the Genus Dalbergia, and thousands in the family that rosewoods belong in. Two trees/woods in the same family may be very very different, and making a comparison because of this IMO is weak. I feel it is at least in part a marketing strategy.

Someone mentioned granadillo. Well, the granadillo found in Mexico is in the Platymiscium genus. It is in the same family as rosewoods, but it is not a true rosewood. Calling it Dalbergia granadillo is only for marketing purposes. Some vendors may list it that way, but in my opinion they should not. It is either cocobolo, or granadillo, period.

There is another tree called granadillo found in the US, that is genus Caesilpinia. It is not the same granadillo in Mexico. Because there are common names shared, it is even more confusing when vendors call woods other woods for marketing.

Another example of rosewood that is not a rosewood is Bolivian rosewood. It is not a true rosewood, but Bolivian rosewood (Machaerium genus) sells better than Morado (its common name).

The persimmon tree has little commercial value other than as a fruiting ornamental. I am sure some of you are aware of this, but the persimmon tree is in the genus Diospyros. It is a true ebony, but because there is no real commercial value, it is not generally called ebony. Granadillo is sometimes called brown ebony, a rare tree from Brazil is called Brazilian ebony, a tree in deep south of Texas is called Texas ebony, and none of them are true ebonies. But because they are dark and hard, they are called ebony so people will say wow...ebony. Sometimes this cannot be helped, and sometimes the common name given to a tree bears that name from the beginning like Texas ebony. But in the case of calling Bubinga African rosewood, Bubinga already has a common name.

I am anal about it because when I see a wood in a cue, I want to know for sure what it is, and where it came from (sometimes vendors don't even know), so my apologies if this is too much info. :eek: :D :eek:

Kelly

..at least when it comes to tropical exotic hardwoods

So, good post to you.

a word about misleadiing<intentional and unintentional> naming

Wood<logs, lumber, etc> as I'm sure you know is sold almost entirely
by commercial name/designation, hardly anybody deals
with scientific or, if you will, botanical nomenclature.

IMHO some of this is due to the need to be practical in the wholesale
wood trade

Rosewood has always been relatively expensive, so many woods are
promoted as a "Rosewood substitute" ie. Bubinga<an excellent cue wood,
BTW> is sometimes called 'African Rosewood' when it is, in fact, an African
Walnut. Bacote, known as mexican rosewood is actually, IIRC, a Cordia.
Bolivian Rosewood is not a Rosewood, but Honduras Rosewood is.

Also, the same name may cover more than one species
Coco for example, encompasses 4 distinct species

Sidebar: Purpleheart is a wood much beloved by many cue enthusiasts.
but Purpleheart is the commercial designation for no fewer than 13
different species of wood

add to all that the fact that the gi-huge-ic Amazon rain forest contains
hundreds of species of wood that range in color from light reddish to dark
brownish and sorta look smell and act like Rosewood, and are known
by many different names in different areas, is it any wonder we are
confused?

Is it time to start a cue woods forum?

Just wondering, can any or all these woods be ID'd by DNA like a murder
suspect on CSI

Dale Pierce
 
Last edited:
George said:
It is my favorite too............this is one of my cocobolo cues, an older Madden.


George
Beautiful cue George and Jack! Who needs gaudy inlays when the wood is that interesting. Bet it plays great too.:)
 
pdcue said:
..at least when it comes to tropical exotic hardwoods

So, good post to you.

a word about misleadiing<intentional and unintentional> naming

Wood<logs, lumber, etc> as I'm sure you know is sold almost entirely
by commercial name/designation, hardly anybody deals
with scientific or, if you will, botanical nomenclature.

IMHO some of this is due to the need to be practical in the wholesale
wood trade

Rosewood has always been relatively expensive, so many woods are
promoted as a "Rosewood substitute" ie. Bubinga<an excellent cue wood,
BTW> is sometimes called 'African Rosewood' when it is, in fact, an African
Walnut. Bacote, known as mexican rosewood is actually, IIRC, a Cordia.
Bolivian Rosewood is not a Rosewood, but Honduras Rosewood is.

Also, the same name may cover more than one species
Coco for example, encompasses 4 distinct species

Sidebar: Purpleheart is a wood much beloved by many cue enthusiasts.
but Purpleheart is the commercial designation for no fewer than 13
different species of wood

add to all that the fact that the gi-huge-ic Amazon rain forest contains
hundreds of species of wood that range in color from light reddish to dark
brownish and sorta look smell and act like Rosewood, and are known
by many different names in different areas, is it any wonder we are
confused?

Is it time to start a cue woods forum?

Just wondering, can any or all these woods be ID'd by DNA like a murder
suspect on CSI

Dale Pierce

yup yup yup...
And there are at least 3 different bocote species that are sold as bocote, and a lot of little known Cordia species that could be described as either bocote or ziricote since ziricote is also Cordia.

I also find variation in Tulipwood and see at least 3 different rosewoods that are called tulipwood, and the colors are a little different from each other.

You mention Honduran Rosewood...is that underrated regarding its tone and hit? Sometimes you can find it swirly and figured, sometimes it is bland, but the few pieces I have, wow a nice tight tone....they have to be hitters...at least I have high hopes for a few squares I just got in. :cool:

I do cut the dealers slack for sure...I still buy from them...:D
I did mention some of the naming can't be helped...and you are right they can't really be expected to be up on the latest classifications as sometimes they are changed, but kudos to some of the dealers who list the various common names and the scientific name and give reasons of why they are called certain things rather than just let the name stand unqualified.

I don't know if we answered the posters original question, :o but awesome discussion...what can I say, I dig wood. :p

Kelly
 
again i want to thank everyone for their input...where does "snakewood" enter into all this

sambo
 
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