Common SIDESPIN MYTHS Debunked

nataddrho said:
Dr. Dave, Thanks for the awesome video!
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You're welcome, and thank you!

nataddrho said:
By the way, you can use the DigiBall as an object ball to measure the exact amount of spin-induced or cut-induced throw. It is very interesting. Once I have a few more made I'll send you one for playing around with.
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Thank you. I look forward to trying it out.
 
I once saw a match one pocket video where Dennis Orcollo made a delicate shot cutting the object ball a little bit to the left, with a bit of speed. He used high english with a bit of inside. Jeremy Jones noticed this, and commented that his use of the inside was really smart as it caused the cue ball to start its travel forward sooner (or later - can't remember), from the initial tangent line. The cue ball was able to avoid an obstacle ball, yet the cue ball was able to travel as Dennis intended for position on the next ball. JJ said that if Dennis had just used high english for the speed of that shot, the cue ball would have hit the obstacle ball.
So... side english can affect the transition time from the tangent line??
 
dr_dave said:
FYI, I just posted a new video that debunks many common misconceptions and myths concerning the use of sidespin in pool. Clear demonstrations convincingly separate sidespin fact from fiction. Check it out:


Contents:
0:00 - Intro
0:10 - Myth 1 – Sidespin Changes CB Direction
2:33 - Myth 2 – Aiming With Sidespin Is Easy
3:53 - Myth 3 – LD Shafts Eliminate the Need to Adjust for CB Deflection
4:33 - Myth 4 – Throwing Balls in With Outside Spin is Necessary
6:16 - Myth 5 – Pros Don’t Use Sidespin Much
8:49 - Wrap Up

As always, I look forward to your feedback, comments, questions, complaints, and requests.

Enjoy!
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I think one concept that the “pros don’t use sidespin much” crowd doesn’t normally wrap their collective heads around is that pros in general would rather use spin to ensure good contact on a cut shot. They’re not afraid of missing the shot due to all the adjustments we amateurs need to make. Ensuring good contact trumps any amateur-perceived “difficulty” that using English causes. This concept becomes incredibly evident at live events, where we see professionals use English on shots that the cueball is not playing any particular position. We actually also see this in snooker today despite internet posters saying otherwise.
 
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Pacecar said:
I once saw a match one pocket video where Dennis Orcollo made a delicate shot cutting the object ball a little bit to the left, with a bit of speed. He used high english with a bit of inside. Jeremy Jones noticed this, and commented that his use of the inside was really smart as it caused the cue ball to start its travel forward sooner (or later - can't remember), from the initial tangent line. The cue ball was able to avoid an obstacle ball, yet the cue ball was able to travel as Dennis intended for position on the next ball. JJ said that if Dennis had just used high english for the speed of that shot, the cue ball would have hit the obstacle ball.
So... side english can affect the transition time from the tangent line??
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Good points. Inside spin does narrow a rolling-CB carom angle per the demo here:

I cover this and all uses of inside spin here:


I didn't want to add subtleties like this to the already-long Myths video that I wanted to keep as short and simple as possible. I plan to follow-up videos showing all the ways outside and inside spin are useful.
 
Cornerman said:
I think one concept that the “pros don’t use sidespin much” crowd doesn’t normally wrap their collective heads around is that pros in general would rather use spin to ensure good contact on a cut shot. They’re not afraid of missing the shot due to all the adjustments we amateurs need to make. Ensuring good contact trumps any amateur-perceived “difficulty” that using English causes. This concept becomes incredibly evident at live events, where we see professionals use English on shots that the cueball is not playing any particular position. We actually also see this in snooker today despite internet posters saying otherwise.
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Good point. Again, I decided to exclude subtle details like this in the Myths video, but I do plan to include everything in follow-up videos for both inside spin and outside spin. The links cover most of the things already, but I think the videos will still be helpful.
 
For myth 1 that side spin doesn't change the direction of the cue ball off the object ball, I think there's a caveat there. Since spin induces throw, adding side spin can change where the correct contact point is, which can then change the direction the cue ball will go after contact compared to a no-spin shot.

An example that comes up a lot for me is if I have a slight angle on a medium or longer shot (OB to pocket, so cheating the pocket is hard) but I want to play a stop shot. If I use a little low and no side spin then the cue ball will go off to the side after contact. Therefore, I'll use side spin to allow for essentially a full ball hit that still throws the ball the small angle into the pocket. Then the cue ball stops right where it should for the best position for the next shot.

The side spin didn't change the direction of the ball off the same contact point of the object ball vs no side spin, but using side spin allowed me to change the direction of the cue ball off the object ball for the shot. That is a subtle distinction, but perhaps still one worth addressing.
 
Rocket354 said:
For myth 1 that side spin doesn't change the direction of the cue ball off the object ball, I think there's a caveat there. Since spin induces throw, adding side spin can change where the correct contact point is, which can then change the direction the cue ball will go after contact compared to a no-spin shot.

An example that comes up a lot for me is if I have a slight angle on a medium or longer shot (OB to pocket, so cheating the pocket is hard) but I want to play a stop shot. If I use a little low and no side spin then the cue ball will go off to the side after contact. Therefore, I'll use side spin to allow for essentially a full ball hit that still throws the ball the small angle into the pocket. Then the cue ball stops right where it should for the best position for the next shot.

The side spin didn't change the direction of the ball off the same contact point of the object ball vs no side spin, but using side spin allowed me to change the direction of the cue ball off the object ball for the shot. That is a subtle distinction, but perhaps still one worth addressing.
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Good points. I cover this some in this video:


I’ll also cover it in the next follow-up video.
 
One spin related topic I’d be interested in would be something like a system for reliably generating a perpendicular rebound off the rails at various cut angles.
 
Justaneng said:
One spin related topic I’d be interested in would be something like a system for reliably generating a perpendicular rebound off the rails at various cut angles.
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Good idea, but that unfortunately depends on many factors including cloth and cushion conditions.
 
Justaneng said:
One spin related topic I’d be interested in would be something like a system for reliably generating a perpendicular rebound off the rails at various cut angles.
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My experiments have shown that maximum side spin = about 3 diamonds of cross table angle change off a rail, and 1/3 or 2/3 of maximum = 1 or 2 diamonds of angle change.

I suspect the same amount of tip offset works in reverse too: shooting into the far rail (first diamond) at the angles shown from the 2nd, 3rd or 4th diamond on the near side with the side spin shown should make the CB rebound straight across back to the starting point (1st diamond near side)

pj
chgo

tips.jpg
 
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I find side spin useful when I need to generate throw on cut shots that don't offer the room to get enough angle because of another ball blocking the cue ball's path. I have made shots like this that were otherwise not possible because of the lack of angle available.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
My experiments have shown that maximum side spin = about 3 diamonds of cross table angle change off a rail, and 1/3 or 2/3 of maximum = 1 or 2 diamonds of angle change.

I suspect the same amount of tip offset works in reverse too: shooting into the far rail (first diamond) at the angles shown from the 2nd, 3rd or 4th diamond on the near side with the side spin shown should make the CB rebound straight across back to the starting point (1st diamond near side)

pj
chgo

View attachment 730721
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I think 55 percent from center is the theoretical limit. This looks about right.
 
Does any of this apply to un polished dirty balls that we use more often at the pool room?

I can see my own reflection in the balls you have
 
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