Compression fit on a piloted joint

[spliced]

Hi,

I'm wondering everybodys opinion on a piloted joint, where the nipple on the shaft is compressed by the joint collar when the cue is assembled.

Some argue it provides more feel, a better transmittion of feedback/energy, and guarantees against a false nodial point when the cue is forced to bend.

Cuemakers who i know use a compressed wood pilot joint are Szamboti, Tascarella, Black boar, Balabushka, Scruggs, and Searing. I have also seen some by some of these makers that do not

Schon, Joss, and most production cues do not. These joints are more of a floating brass pilot and really seem pointless to me, although these cues are often praised for their hits.

So does it really make a difference? When you compress a piece of wood side by side with another piece does it really transmit more feedback? What about false nodial points? How can anyone really tell?

-ian

 

[dirtypool40]

I don't know, but I like it.

I attached a pic of the titleist conversion HArry Richards did for my dad. I know it's a crappy cel phone pic.

I used to shoot with a Scruggs and loved the joint in that.

My Richards goes together like a VAULT. I also have an older "floating" brass insert 5/16-18 pin cue he did with a phenolic joint. Not quite as tight, and a softer, less feedback hit.

I like the hit of the older style, "piloted" steel joint cues, but I have no scientific evidence that they hit they way they do because of those two features.

On the other hand and I know I'll get "flamed" for this, I don't buy all the new "technology" they put into cues. OK, a laminated tip makes some sense, for consistency sake and radial laminated shaft because you can't find clean, stiff shaftwood, I'll buy that. (And it SHOULD be .0001% more consistent.)

But those dead ass, "vibration dampening" ferrules? And shafts with dead space in them? Yuk, they hit like a stack of legos with toilet paper in between them.

David Howard (when yes, he was sponsored by Smoochy) was making fun of their "zero deflection" claims back in the 80's. Those things hit like vermacelli!!!

Set up a high tech Predator or whatever, and I bet you have to get used to what it does like any other cue.

Play with a "dead" hitting stack of balsa, and you are wasting your stroke, no matter what the "high tech BS" the brochure had.

......um, I'm sorry what was the original question???

Sorry for the rant.

Love the full splices, love the piloted SS joints. I'll post better pics when my new one is done.

DVC

es

 

[BarenbruggeCues]

IMO........compression fit at the joint has nothing or very little to do with the feel or hit of the cue. It's main and primary purpose to simply locate the shaft onto the butt in the exact same position each time it screwed together.
It pilots the two together.

 

[CueCaps]

Fit and Face

That piloted Joint style is a Fit and Face Assembly. Meaning, they align the Radial and Axial Center Lines.. We use this a lot to align the pump and/or electric motor ends to the housing. I to, wondered how the excess clearence between the Pilot and the Counterbore Diameter defeats the purpose of this alignment principal. I guess it is close enough for cues.
I see you are more concern about the vibration coming down from the tip to the handle. That vibration, by theory, suppose to come down in a staight line, instead of scattering down to the handle. Which is, what I think, is caused by Disimilar materials, unparallel faces, glue pockets, loose connections, etc..
But, then again, I am not a cuemaker, so...

 

[KJ Cues]

Alton,
You may not be a CM but everything you said about the transmission of vibration is true. You have a good grasp of the concept. I'm impressed.

Finally got a chance to return a stroke. Aloha, KJ

 

[spliced]

IMO........compression fit at the joint has nothing or very little to do with the feel or hit of the cue. It's main and primary purpose to simply locate the shaft onto the butt in the exact same position each time it screwed together.
It pilots the two together.

So a piloted cue joint was originally developed because it was more difficult to get the shaft to line up to the butt back in the day, when inserts and screws did not match up so well, correct?

If this is true then with todays hardware that is much more compatible and machines with much more exact tolerances, it is now no longer necessary to use a pilot to align the joint faces right?

 

[rsmith_1972]

Interesting

This is an interesting subject. I was going to do my thesis on this exact scenario but there was no funding from the vibration world. This would actually be a very easy case to prove or disprove. But the reality of it is that when a material is in compression, it can only compress so much, more of the vibration/ wavelength of the vibration can be transferred through medias. Where as is it is not compressed, it will compress when being struck causing a dampening effect. This actually goes in to material science as well and vibrations. That being each substance has a specific grain pattern and how they react to tensile and compressive stresses.
Again, i think this is a very interesting subject and would like to do a study on it at some point... So, all you cue makers/builders send me one of your cues and I will start testing them right away...LOL..... Just kidding but I would like to do a study on this in the next couple of years.

V/r
Richard

 

[dave sutton]

I think with more area making contact. Therefore, a properly executed pilot deff adds to playability of a cue IMO. Compair the hit of a big pin to little pin. To me the big pin is a little more solid then a piloted joint. More total area of the pin in contact with the shaft.

 

[Ridge Runner]

I agree with Dave, a pilot is for alignment only. If the pilot compresses, then your joint faces aren't seating properly and you will probably have a wobble in your cue when rolled on a table.
This is assuming that I am understanding your statement correctly.
thanks
John

 

[WilleeCue]

Hi,

I'm wondering everybodys opinion on a piloted joint, where the nipple on the shaft is compressed by the joint collar when the cue is assembled.

There is no compression!

If the pilot end contacts the bottom before the joint faces then the cue will not make up properly and will most likely not roll straight.
There also needs to be a small allowance for the face wearing down over time which would allow the end of the pilot to go deeper into the cavity and possibly bottom out.
The end of the pilot will never contact the bottom at the same time the faces of the joint contact. There would always be unequal pressure between them if they did and that can cause alignment problems.
Side friction in a piloted joint does nothing but make the joint feel tighter when you screw it together.
To be honest I see no advantage over the standard flat face joint like McDermott used in their cues and several possible problems.

Layani makes a joint that gives the most surface to surface contact of all the joint designs out there.
Check out his design and you will see why.

http://www.layanicues.com/

 

[dave sutton]

I agree with Dave, a pilot is for alignment only. If the pilot compresses, then your joint faces aren't seating properly and you will probably have a wobble in your cue when rolled on a table.
This is assuming that I am understanding your statement correctly.
thanks
John

lol im talking about feedback through the cue. a perfect pilot not only aids in alignment but also add to overall feel.

for instance the pilots on my skip weston fit like a glove. this ivory joint plays unlike and other ivory jointed cue ive ever played with. very sold very stiff kinda like SS but with great feedback

 

[BarenbruggeCues]

So a piloted cue joint was originally developed because it was more difficult to get the shaft to line up to the butt back in the day, when inserts and screws did not match up so well, correct?

If this is true then with todays hardware that is much more compatible and machines with much more exact tolerances, it is now no longer necessary to use a pilot to align the joint faces right?

My cues are built on a different theory than the piloted joint so I guess the answer to your question IMO would be, yes.

But it may not be because I don't believe the the piloted joint was used to align the faces of the joint but rather the circumference of the shaft and the butt.

 

[spliced]

If the pilot end contacts the bottom before the joint faces then the cue will not make up properly and will most likely not roll straight.
There also needs to be a small allowance for the face wearing down over time which would allow the end of the pilot to go deeper into the cavity and possibly bottom out.
The end of the pilot will never contact the bottom at the same time the faces of the joint contact. There would always be unequal pressure between them if they did and that can cause alignment problems.

Thats not what im talking about. I know they can't bottom out

Side friction in a piloted joint does nothing but make the joint feel tighter when you screw it together.

Thats what im talking about. On the BB website, they mention how Gus Szamboti found that a compression fit to the collar on the sides of the pilot enhanced a cue's playability. I'm just tryin to figure out if it's true and something I should have on my playing cue. I mean, its hard to argue with Gus..

 

[BarenbruggeCues]

Thats not what im talking about. I know they can't bottom out



Thats what im talking about. On the BB website, they mention how Gus Szamboti found that a compression fit to the collar on the sides of the pilot enhanced a cue's playability. I'm just tryin to figure out if it's true and something I should have on my playing cue. I mean, its hard to argue with Gus..

I think Willie may have gotten a smit confused about the compression part you were talking about...........

I have a deep respect for not only what Gus has brought to the table in cue construction but Tony also. I guess my only question about this is "enhanced a cue's playability" compared to what? I've talked to Tony extensively on this subject and he will do everything in his powers to convince one that the piloted joint is the only way to get the job done.
Unfortunately, Gus isn't available at this time!

I also know DPK did extensive research on this very subject and between his and Jerry's beliefs don't feel it is necessary to enhance the cue's playability.

<~~~believes one should believe in their own construction methods as being the best................just ask eddie....

 

[JoeyInCali]

My cues are built on a different theory than the piloted joint so I guess the answer to your question IMO would be, yes.

But it may not be because I don't believe the the piloted joint was used to align the faces of the joint but rather the circumference of the shaft and the butt.

My theory is flatface emits reasonance better.
Bigger joint pin makes the joint flex less, more cuaball action.

I believe in fat forearms and skinny handle too.
Joey~Dun't post here anymore but couldn't resist tonite~

 

[BarenbruggeCues]

My theory is flatface emits reasonance better.
Bigger joint pin makes the joint flex less, more cuaball action.

I believe in fat forearms and skinny handle too.
Joey~Dun't post here anymore but couldn't resist tonite~

Over 8200 posts and you don't post here anymore? What the fvck?
You just stalking me then?


<~~~thinks Joey needs 10,000 plus posts before retiring..................

 

[RocketQ]

Agree

This is an interesting subject. I was going to do my thesis on this exact scenario but there was no funding from the vibration world. This would actually be a very easy case to prove or disprove. But the reality of it is that when a material is in compression, it can only compress so much, more of the vibration/ wavelength of the vibration can be transferred through medias. Where as is it is not compressed, it will compress when being struck causing a dampening effect. This actually goes in to material science as well and vibrations. That being each substance has a specific grain pattern and how they react to tensile and compressive stresses.
Again, i think this is a very interesting subject and would like to do a study on it at some point... So, all you cue makers/builders send me one of your cues and I will start testing them right away...LOL..... Just kidding but I would like to do a study on this in the next couple of years.

V/r
Richard

The only thing I can see that you missed on this enlightening post is the facts of different materials transmitting the wavelength. Maple and Cocobolo do not have the same density and will not have the same resonance. Not only "That being each substance has a specific grain pattern and how they react to tensile and compressive stresses."
Not to mention laminations of wood , phenolic, metal, all have different resonance qualities. Smart man....

 

[brianna187]

i owned a harry Richards cue it was a Ebony jump break it was the nicest
j/b i ever saw the workmanship was unbelievable...

 

[matta]

lol im talking about feedback through the cue. a perfect pilot not only aids in alignment but also add to overall feel.

for instance the pilots on my skip weston fit like a glove. this ivory joint plays unlike and other ivory jointed cue ive ever played with. very sold very stiff kinda like SS but with great feedback

I overheard Royce from OB-1 talking about an experiment he did. You rarely hear of people doing a scientific experiment about pool. He convinced me though. Maybe he can post a more thorough explanation but here it is as I remember it.

He built 3 or 4 cues (I forget exact details). All of them exactly the same except for the joint construction. He then took them around Dallas, a huge pool playing town, with the joints taped over so no one could peek. He then passed the cues to the best players in the area. Asking them to identify the joints on each cue.

According to him, none of the players could even pick out the cue with same joint as their own playing cue. No one could guess which was which.

If you believe this experiment, I think it shows the joint has very little to do with how a cue plays.

Now on the other side, I think a nice compression fit on a pilot is nice. I think it is part of the fit and finish on a cue. The final details. It is just that extra touch the cuemaker went through to make it perfect. I want mine compression fit too.

 

[WilleeCue]

I overheard Royce from OB-1 talking about an experiment he did. You rarely hear of people doing a scientific experiment about pool. He convinced me though. Maybe he can post a more thorough explanation but here it is as I remember it.

That has been done before.
Same results.