Confidence and Accuracy: Top vs. Bottom spin

S

SixSence

Richmond Boy'
Silver Member
Why is it that most people (myself included) have more confidence and are more accurate hitting shots with center or bottom spin than when using top spin? At the same speed (whether it be slow rolling or a power shot), I'm much more confident with bottom and center than I am with top.

Consider a straight-in table length shot where the cue ball is near the end rail. Most average players I see immediately jack up to hit center or bottom (which theoretically would make the shot much less accurate and comfortable) rather than use top which would give them a level cue and a better view, and would achieve the same cue-ball position.

Also consider a table length shot with a little angle (not quite straight in) with the cue ball a little farther from the end rail. It seems to me, most people make the ball much more often when stunning or drawing the ball than they do with the same speed using follow to goto the top rail and back up.

Just want some of your opinions on the subject :)
 
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Imo

I think this is because when you are hitting a draw shot you can see the whole CB, when shooting with follow, you see two halves of the CB, so the overall aiming line on the shot is better when using draw. I think the center or draw for me tends to be a cleaner, more accurate shot.
 
It's all in their head. Probably just a habit to use low, or possibly they fear scratching so bad that they want to avoid going anywhere near a pocket with the cue ball...

I do not think these people "have more success" with low, they just use it more often... I would expect that everyone goes through this as they learn the game.
 
The reason I frowned on it when I first started was that I would hit a little to high and come right over the ball (miscue and trap).

I now hit according to what I want to accomplish, and many times paly for the follow angle where in the past I would always play for the stun or draw...

It's cool how your game evolves over time...

Pete
 
seymore15074 said:
It's all in their head. Probably just a habit to use low, or possibly they fear scratching so bad that they want to avoid going anywhere near a pocket with the cue ball...

I do not think these people "have more success" with low, they just use it more often... I would expect that everyone goes through this as they learn the game.
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I agree that it's all in the head, but I know several good players that have considerably more success making the object ball in the scenario I described above with a center stop shot than using follow at the same speed (when the cue ball is off the rail). I'm not sure if it's because we can't see the full cue ball as said above, or if it's because we are worrying about controlling the cue ball speed, or because our stroke changes and feels different when aiming higher, etc... but I believe that most players at most any level have this feeling to some degree.
 
SixSence said:
I agree that it's all in the head, but I know several good players that have considerably more success making the object ball in the scenario I described above with a center stop shot than using follow at the same speed (when the cue ball is off the rail). I'm not sure if it's because we can't see the full cue ball as said above, or if it's because we are worrying about controlling the cue ball speed, or because our stroke changes and feels different when aiming higher, etc... but I believe that most players at most any level have this feeling to some degree.
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Obviously center ball will be more reliable, I was thinking follow vs. draw... When do you ever miscue playing center? Hello reliability! :p
 
Pete said:
The reason I frowned on it when I first started was that I would hit a little to high and come right over the ball (miscue and trap).

I now hit according to what I want to accomplish, and many times paly for the follow angle where in the past I would always play for the stun or draw...

It's cool how your game evolves over time...

Pete
Click to expand...

Ok, for all of you saying it has no affect on you at all, consider this shot. You have a table length shot that is like 1cm off of being straight in, and the cue ball is just enough off the end rail for you to place a comfortable bridge on the cloth. Now, at least for me, I could fire that ball in with a center stun stroke all day long. But, if I was trying to fire it in with high top spin, I would make a considerably less amount of shots.
 
seymore15074 said:
Obviously center ball will be more reliable, I was thinking follow vs. draw... When do you ever miscue playing center? Hello reliability! :p
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I hardly ever miscue using top spin, in fact that's the least of my worries, but I still am less confident with top than draw or center (having nothing to do with the possibility of miscueing)
 
Skid??

IMHO Assuming there is room to bridge for draw or stun, I like to hit mild draw to gain accuraccy. I think there is less skid of the OB since it immediaetly starts to roll down the travel line. At least thats what I tell myself. Now draw with english is another story.
 
It has something to do with the "gear effect". Dirty balls exhibit more "gear effect" than clean ones.

When using draw, the friction between the CB & OB causes the OB to immediately start rolling forward. This reduces the effect of throw and a cut shot tends to over cut. This is predictable and our minds eventually make allowance for it so we find the center of the pocket over and over.

When using follow, the friction between the CB & OB causes the OB to immediately turn backward (how ever imperceptible) before rolling forward. This increases the effect of throw and a cut shot tends to under cut (the OB may obviously skid before taking any forward rotation). This is less predictable and our minds struggle to make allowances for it so we can not always find the center of the pocket over and over.

In the case of a nearly straight shot, draw will minimize the effect of a slightly off-center hit where follow will magnify it. Over the course of several feet, the follow shots can develop a small amount of throw which leads to any occasionally rattled ball.
 
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mosconiac said:
It has something to do with the "gear effect". Dirty balls exhibit more "gear effect" than clean ones.

When using draw, the friction between the CB & OB causes the OB to immediately start rolling forward. This reduces the effect of throw and a cut shot tends to over cut. This is predictable and our minds eventually make allowance for it so we find the center of the pocket over and over.

When using follow, the friction between the CB & OB causes the OB to immediately turn backward (how ever imperceptible) before rolling forward. This increases the effect of throw and a cut shot tends to under cut (the OB may obviously skid before taking any forward rotation). This is less predictable and our minds struggle to make allowances for it so we can not always find the center of the pocket over and over.

In the case of a nearly straight shot, draw will minimize the effect of a slightly off-center hit where follow will magnify it. Over the course of several feet, the follow shots can develop a small amount of throw which leads to any occasionally rattled ball.
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Mosconiac, interesting idea and I believe you are right about these effects being there. But I also believe they're so small that they won't affect the outcome of a shot unless the difference in making or missing is something on the order of a few hundreths of an inch. In other words, the amount of throw is only slightly altered.

Jim
 
mosconiac said:
It has something to do with the "gear effect". Dirty balls exhibit more "gear effect" than clean ones.

When using draw, the friction between the CB & OB causes the OB to immediately start rolling forward. This reduces the effect of throw and a cut shot tends to over cut. This is predictable and our minds eventually make allowance for it so we find the center of the pocket over and over.

When using follow, the friction between the CB & OB causes the OB to immediately turn backward (how ever imperceptible) before rolling forward. This increases the effect of throw and a cut shot tends to under cut (the OB may obviously skid before taking any forward rotation). This is less predictable and our minds struggle to make allowances for it so we can not always find the center of the pocket over and over.

In the case of a nearly straight shot, draw will minimize the effect of a slightly off-center hit where follow will magnify it. Over the course of several feet, the follow shots can develop a small amount of throw which leads to any occasionally rattled ball.
Click to expand...
Only accurate post I read in this thread as to explain the accuracy increasing with draw as opposed to follow.
 
mosconiac said:
It has something to do with the "gear effect". Dirty balls exhibit more "gear effect" than clean ones.

When using draw, the friction between the CB & OB causes the OB to immediately start rolling forward. This reduces the effect of throw and a cut shot tends to over cut. This is predictable and our minds eventually make allowance for it so we find the center of the pocket over and over.
Click to expand...

Taking this a step further, the addition of a taste of outside english adds to the 'purity' of the cue/object ball collision. I'm most confident and accurate when shooting with low outside.

Ken
 
Slider said:
Taking this a step further, the addition of a taste of outside english adds to the 'purity' of the cue/object ball collision. I'm most confident and accurate when shooting with low outside.

Ken
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Buddy Hall calls it "helper" english. Totally necessary to avoid contact induced throw on the object ball.
 
Huh I always knew I was weird, I'd rather shoot with high english then low. I've always thought it was better for the ball to be rolling with high english then sliding with low english. I know I'm alot more accurate with high, but that may be because the first 4yrs I played I never could really draw the ball very well. I know I will play shape for a follow shot over draw alot of the time if I have the choice and it requires going to a rail.

The only time I see any throw on a follow shot is if I have right or left hand english on the ball and I normally have no problem adjusting for that. That very well could be thanks to playing with a meucci most of my pool playing life, lots of throw so you get good at judging it. Now once in a blue moon I do have a ball throw weird but I usually just chalk it up to something on the ball or me putting unwanted english on the cue ball.

Interesting topic.
 
My thoughts on it...or why I think bottom is more accurate as a whole.Not that I dissagree with any posted above...just adding to the discussion.

I think top actually uses the felt as it starts to wear off....so any left or right (however accidental) will show up and percentages of pocketed balls go down as the shots get longer.

But Bottom balls will stop spinning and just start rolling...so acurracy is not effected by L/R traction on the ball...

Anyone agree...or am I way off base?
 
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I'm kind of surprised that most people are saying draw is more accurate. I thought using follow would be more accurate since the cueball doesn't have to go from backward spin to skid to forward roll (depending on distance). I thought that might magnify any inaccuracy in aiming (or maybe table imperfections).

I'm actually not sure whether there's a systematic difference in accuracy for me, but I try to use follow more often for position anyway.
 
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mosconiac said:
It has something to do with the "gear effect". Dirty balls exhibit more "gear effect" than clean ones.

When using draw, the friction between the CB & OB causes the OB to immediately start rolling forward. This reduces the effect of throw and a cut shot tends to over cut. This is predictable and our minds eventually make allowance for it so we find the center of the pocket over and over.

When using follow, the friction between the CB & OB causes the OB to immediately turn backward (how ever imperceptible) before rolling forward. This increases the effect of throw and a cut shot tends to under cut (the OB may obviously skid before taking any forward rotation). This is less predictable and our minds struggle to make allowances for it so we can not always find the center of the pocket over and over.

In the case of a nearly straight shot, draw will minimize the effect of a slightly off-center hit where follow will magnify it. Over the course of several feet, the follow shots can develop a small amount of throw which leads to any occasionally rattled ball.
Click to expand...

I only considered side-spin and skidding vs. natural roll in affecting the cut-induced throw, but i'll test this out. Nice answer :)
 
Personally, I use both follow & draw. I will say my follow is stronger though & more consistent. I can put a lot of draw on the CB but if I want to weave the CB through a cluster of balls to get position then follow is my choice. I just seem to be able to get the CB to go exactly where I want when I use topspin with English.
 
technique

chilli66 said:
Personally, I use both follow & draw. I will say my follow is stronger though & more consistent. I can put a lot of draw on the CB but if I want to weave the CB through a cluster of balls to get position then follow is my choice. I just seem to be able to get the CB to go exactly where I want when I use topspin with English.
Click to expand...

Could someone describe the technique for "follow." I'm often disappointed by the short rebound distance of the CB off the cushion.
 
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