Consistency of APA Ratings

[Celophanewrap]

I'm a low b, high c player depending on where I'm at. I'm currently a sl7 in apa, which is higher than my actual skill level in my opinion. Odds are I'll end up being a 8 fairly soon (9 ball).

In an area with a lot of good players, the lower level players are going to be better, and the 6's + will also be better. Just my opinion.

It's funny how we're all over rated just a little and everyone else is sandbagging. I think that no one is ever ready to be the next skill level. I'm the only one I ever knew that was happy to move up and wanted to be a 7, it carries a certain status and people see that 7 and right away they start to game plan around you, "who's gonna play the 7?" "oh, they have a 7..." Then you have to play some sangbagging 7 from Indiana that makes you look silly.....

 

[bad_hit]

The widest range is definitely at the top and bottom ends -

Bottom end (hehe I said "bottom end") can be newer players who either haven't settled into the rating system yet or have big improvements where the system hasn't caught up yet. They appear to be huge sandbaggers even though they may not be trying to do that.

Top end can be anyone from a low B level to a Pro and they're all "7"s. I'm a 7 and I routinely play other 7s in my area who are either low B players or GrandMasters. It's all over the place. Why they won't just add 3 more ratings in 8 ball (and up the 23 rule) makes no sense. 2-7 rating system is way too narrow.

 

[cubswin]

It's funny how we're all over rated just a little and everyone else is sandbagging. I think that no one is ever ready to be the next skill level. I'm the only one I ever knew that was happy to move up and wanted to be a 7, it carries a certain status and people see that 7 and right away they start to game plan around you, "who's gonna play the 7?" "oh, they have a 7..." Then you have to play some sangbagging 7 from Indiana that makes you look silly.....

I don't care that I'm a 7, don't care where I'm ranked actually. Going to play this session and then I'm done. Don't find it much fun.

I do know where I'm at compared to most every player in my area, because I play in a bunch of tournaments around here. And I can say with fair certainty the sl rankings matter on where you are at.

I knew, based on others who play around here, that I'd be a 7, and suspect based on folks I know I'll end up a 8 in 9 ball.

 

[cardiac kid]

It's funny how we're all over rated just a little and everyone else is sandbagging. I think that no one is ever ready to be the next skill level. I'm the only one I ever knew that was happy to move up and wanted to be a 7, it carries a certain status and people see that 7 and right away they start to game plan around you, "who's gonna play the 7?" "oh, they have a 7..." Then you have to play some sangbagging 7 from Indiana that makes you look silly.....

As I said, is a 7 from New York City equal in ability to a 7 from East Podunk? And yes, every team who plays the team I'm on does plan around me. Sometimes with a 2. Sometimes with their 7. As I play the balls on the table, don't care who I play. Only difference is how many quarters I have to put into the table.

Lyn

 

[PocketPooler]

If your team captain was in charge of your local league, do you believe that even the local handicaps would be consistent? I would imagine that League Operator was a captain of a team or at least played for a while. Hence, I doubt there is much consistency.

Having a pool player LO is like putting all Congress on welfare and food stamps. Every decision and Angle will be measured by first measuring his own wallet, then his friends'; I've seen it first hand.

 

[trob]

It's funny how we're all over rated just a little and everyone else is sandbagging. I think that no one is ever ready to be the next skill level. I'm the only one I ever knew that was happy to move up and wanted to be a 7, it carries a certain status and people see that 7 and right away they start to game plan around you, "who's gonna play the 7?" "oh, they have a 7..." Then you have to play some sangbagging 7 from Indiana that makes you look silly.....

That's absolutely true lol At 9 ball leagues the other night there captain who is new to apa in this area sat next to me and said can ask you a few questions..I never talked to a 9 before. I thought he was joking but he was absolutely sincere in asking what I did to get there and how he can get there.

 

[justadub]

As I said, is a 7 from New York City equal in ability to a 7 from East Podunk? And yes, every team who plays the team I'm on does plan around me. Sometimes with a 2. Sometimes with their 7. As I play the balls on the table, don't care who I play. Only difference is how many quarters I have to put into the table.

Lyn

I absolutely plan to account for a 7 on the opposing team. (And I dont throw off.) I think its the team captains job to try and plan for the best matchups based on the team he/she is facing, and a 7,8,9 are obviously the player that is strongest.

Sometimes the highest level isn't a 7. Whoever is likely the stronger player, I'll try and plan around.

Then all my planning will get screwed up based on the opposing teams throws, and I'll be back at square 1.

 

[GeoEnvi]

I absolutely plan to account for a 7 on the opposing team. (And I dont throw off.)

You don't throw off? It's the biggest steal in APA now that SL2 and SL3 get a "point for playing" or 'sticking around long enough for the opponent to scratch on an 8B."

 

[Skippy27]

It's funny how we're all over rated just a little and everyone else is sandbagging. I think that no one is ever ready to be the next skill level. I'm the only one I ever knew that was happy to move up and wanted to be a 7, it carries a certain status and people see that 7 and right away they start to game plan around you, "who's gonna play the 7?" "oh, they have a 7..." Then you have to play some sangbagging 7 from Indiana that makes you look silly.....

My goal was to be a 7 by the end of last year and I failed. So it is my goal again this year. However, I was speaking with LO (whom is from the APA office) and he told me not to get too stuck on that as it is very hard to get to a 7 because you have to average such a low inning count for so long.

I don't know this as fact, but if you are a 7 you are average less then 2 innings a game after you factor in defensive shots.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

They have fractional S/L's? No sheet, I had no idea. When did that start and how long, or is that a regional thing?

You have an average in the computer. Your average in 8 ball is actually 2 decimal places. It is based on average innings per game. Let's just say a particular skill level covers 3.01-4.00 innings per game. You might have an average of 3.09, which would put you at the top 10% of your skill level, or 3.95, which would put you at the bottom 10% of your skill level. None of that is revealed to the players. They just know the single number of their skill level. This is the case everywhere.

KMRUNOUT

 

[jeremy8000]

One of the biggest root causes of variance from one market to another is the relative lack of understanding of or willingness to mark what is a 'defensive' shot, and whether the LO addresses it.

I'm the type of player who announces his own safeties, and expects them to be marked. It's far more common at the end of a match to find the opposing team has marked (a) none for either player, (b) all my announced safeties and none of their player's, or even (c) the first few of the called ones marked with the sentiment that they can't be bothered to mark more than a few because any more than that 'don't matter.'

For the sake of argument, let's say I play as a 'low' SL 5 in 8-ball. If I'm ensuring that my team is marking all of my defensive shots - which, per APA definition, is any shot where it is not my intent to legally pocket one of my object ball(s) to continue at the table (not just to 'make a good hit') - then my handicap should be pretty fairly in the range of others who are similarly scored. If I have no safeties ever marked, it makes it appear as if takes me more innings on average to secure a win, and I would likely be calculated as a SL 4 and, possibly, a 'high' SL 3.

Deliberate sandbagging is out there too, but I think this unintentional sandbagging via either laziness or ignorance is a bigger culprit.

 

[skip100]

The ratings have two major components - win percentage and innings played in winning games (minus safeties). Both of these are subject to variability across location.

Win percentage is affected by the quality of your competition, so even if player A and player B are evently matched, if player A is in a league with tougher opponents then he could have a lower rating than player B.

Innings played should in theory not be affected by location, but in fact it is because of what jeremy points out. Locations with knowledgeable players who mark safeties will end up with higher ratings due to a lower effective inning count. In one of my leagues it seems to be the unstated policy not to mark any safeties at all which results in a lot of strong 4s and 5s.

 

[GeoEnvi]

Unmarked "defensive" and "non-performance" shots are the bane of APA players everywhere that conduct themselves with integrity. So are league operators that fail to enforce proper scorekeeping.

 

[justadub]

You don't throw off? It's the biggest steal in APA now that SL2 and SL3 get a "point for playing" or 'sticking around long enough for the opponent to scratch on an 8B."

During playoffs I might, depending on the situation. For the most part, I dont. I dont think its fun for either player, and I dont think my lower level players learn anything sitting in their chair, shooting one time every once in a while.

I'm more interested in sending my best against your best, and seeing who wins.

I can understand people doing it, and if I had a 3 that I felt could handle it, maybe I might do it more often. I want them to get more out of their league night than to be a sacrifice.

To each his own.

 

[Celophanewrap]

One of the biggest root causes of variance from one market to another is the relative lack of understanding of or willingness to mark what is a 'defensive' shot, and whether the LO addresses it.

I'm the type of player who announces his own safeties, and expects them to be marked. It's far more common at the end of a match to find the opposing team has marked (a) none for either player, (b) all my announced safeties and none of their player's, or even (c) the first few of the called ones marked with the sentiment that they can't be bothered to mark more than a few because any more than that 'don't matter.'

For the sake of argument, let's say I play as a 'low' SL 5 in 8-ball. If I'm ensuring that my team is marking all of my defensive shots - which, per APA definition, is any shot where it is not my intent to legally pocket one of my object ball(s) to continue at the table (not just to 'make a good hit') - then my handicap should be pretty fairly in the range of others who are similarly scored. If I have no safeties ever marked, it makes it appear as if takes me more innings on average to secure a win, and I would likely be calculated as a SL 4 and, possibly, a 'high' SL 3.

Deliberate sandbagging is out there too, but I think this unintentional sandbagging via either laziness or ignorance is a bigger culprit.

I also think something that causes a discrepancy from place to place is the amount of matches played. In a larger market where the league is thriving a player might play a league match several times a week , whereas in a smaller market with fewer teams a league player may play once (or less) a week

 

[GeoEnvi]

During playoffs I might, depending on the situation. For the most part, I dont. I dont think its fun for either player, and I dont think my lower level players learn anything sitting in their chair, shooting one time every once in a while.

I'm more interested in sending my best against your best, and seeing who wins.

I can understand people doing it, and if I had a 3 that I felt could handle it, maybe I might do it more often. I want them to get more out of their league night than to be a sacrifice.

To each his own.

You have to know your players and the opponents. I'm not talking putting a SL2 or SL3 on a SL6; but using a SL3.9 against a weak SL4 or safety minded SL5 against a failed runout artist SL6 is almost too good to pass up.

 

[SlashingAxe]

Everyone else has already stated what I think of the post in terms of higher talent pool in an area, unmarked safeties, style of play, etc. I have to agree with style of play being a big factor. I'm only a 5 in 8 ball and my pocketing is quite good and a bit above my level but my pattern play can be quite horrendous and it's only been saved by my pocketing. So whenever I play a low level 2 or 3 who doesn't break good or scatters balls and clumps up balls by accident I tend to lose running out just about everything and being stuck with a ball or two as they just run out little by little til they beat me. I urge my captain to toss me against the same level or higher since the table tends to be more open and I have an equal chance to run out of my pocketing is good. So if I play a safety or players who clump balls I tend to do very bad while against aggressive run out attempt players I do good against and make my level look true

 

[CreeDo]

In theory I think the formula for determining your rating is supposed to be
independent of the other guy's skill level, and even independent of whether you win or lose.

It's supposed to be based on how many innings your typical game goes,
defensive attempts, etc.

I think what happens though is a few guys are out of whack with the rest
because the league operator has the right to override what the computer calculates
for skill level. Then you have guys who play a lot of 2-way shots or straight up
safeties that don't get recorded, and this keeps their rating a bit low.
And sometimes you get guys who just break the system a little
(e.g. a guy who plays very smart and knows how to win, might have a 70% win rate,
but just doesn't run balls that well and takes a lot of innings to finish a match)

All of these things can affect the entire pool room to the point where everyone
at a certain rank plays a little tougher than some other room where there are fewer
outliers, exceptions, and weird cases.

 

[Skippy27]

In theory I think the formula for determining your rating is supposed to be independent of the other guy's skill level, and even independent of whether you win or lose.

It's supposed to be based on how many innings your typical game goes,
defensive attempts, etc.

To the best of my knowledge it is independent of their skill and only involves Wins, innings to earn them along with the defensive shots.

I think what happens though is a few guys are out of whack with the rest because the league operator has the right to override what the computer calculates for skill level.

LO's cannot move a player down, they can only move them up. It is part of the checks/balances.

Then you have guys who play a lot of 2-way shots or straight up safeties that don't get recorded, and this keeps their rating a bit low.

This is the single biggest issue which is why low level players or players that do not know the game and/or pay attention shouldn't be keeping score. I had one match that went 39 innings between a 5 and a 6 in which the 6 swept the match. If I recall correctly, I had marked 36 defs with a vast majority on the 6. At the end of the night the captain, whom is a 5 and had less than 10 marked, came to sign the sheet and wasn't happy about that. I simply said every shoot that they did not attempt to make a ball is a defensive shot. The response was classic "He was just trying to get a good hit on most of those!". Which I pointed out was by definition is a defensive shot.

A 2 way shot is one thing and can be identified before the player even shoots. It a whole other thing when a shot that if you miss it puts you in a better position while leaving your opponent worse off, that gets marked depending on MY determination of your SL. When you get on the hill or just before well ahead of your opponent and then suddenly can't sink a ball into a 5 gallon bucket, they start getting marked.

 

[pogmothoin]

Interesting discussion. I agree that score keeping is too important to leave to an uneducated player. In my opinion unmarked defensive play is the biggest reason why there is inconsistency. Some of that is ignorance but that can be corrected. A lot of it unfortunately is an intentional attempt to cheat the system.

I play in an in house league. The LO, to their credit, mandates that defensive shots must be called. Any uncalled defensive shot is marked in a different area of the sheet. The players in this division are pretty good about calling and marking them. Does this put our players at a disadvantage when playing in regional or national tournaments? Probably.

In the end our team just decided to have fun and play by the rules. It does get a little frustrating at times though.