Cored Fronts

hoosier_cues

hoosier_cues

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have a question about core fronts. I understand that it makes it easier to do points because of stablizing the piece and makes it easier to get weight down on heavier woods. But how does all of this effect the hit of the cue. I like the feel of ebony but if you install a laminated dowel wont this effect the hit. If you install the pin like a 3/8-11 there doesnt seem there would be much material left in the dowel. Which to me would make it weak. I am sure that I am wrong about this but I would like to know why. Thanks everybody.
 
But how does all of this effect the hit of the cue

The cue will hit as good as the dowel.
It is the HEART of that cue after all.
 
Good question and gets to the heart of what makes a cue hit good. Is it the outside of the cue, the inside of the cue, the shaft material, taper, ferrule, tip. Let's not forget joint, joint material. Don't have a good answer, there is so many opinions and theories floating around it will make your head spin. So with that said, here is my opinions, and they are just opinions. I core a lot of my front's, mostly for stability and more importantly to me for weight consistency. I don't really like laminated ones for coring. I feel they are not as strong in the axis aligned with the laminations. As you said, drill them out to around .360, put in the pin and then try bending it, it will always break along a glue line. Solid wood will usually break along a growth line, but seems to take more energy to do it.
Not scientific, just personal observation. Put it a cored forearm and it's probably plenty strong, but I just don't like it. My opinion on what affects hit is directly proportional to distance from the ball. The further down the cue from the ball the less it matters. So that means in order, tip,ferrule,shaft,joint,outer part of cue and then core. I'm sure there will be a lot of other opinions, who knows, maybe someone will agree with me.
 
hoosier_cues said:
I have a question about core fronts. I understand that it makes it easier to do points because of stablizing the piece and makes it easier to get weight down on heavier woods. But how does all of this effect the hit of the cue. I like the feel of ebony but if you install a laminated dowel wont this effect the hit. If you install the pin like a 3/8-11 there doesnt seem there would be much material left in the dowel. Which to me would make it weak. I am sure that I am wrong about this but I would like to know why. Thanks everybody.
Click to expand...

It is a question on compromise. If you want a Q made of a heavy wood, like Ebony & you want the Q to weigh 18 oz., then you have 2 choices. Either cut the diameter of the Q down, to a smaller size, than usual,OR you can core the heavy wood with a lighter wood. After coring the forearm, you can then put an Ebony PLUG, if you will, in the joint end. This is what I do for customers WANT, that more solid hit of the Ebony...JER
 
After coring the forearm, you can then put an Ebony PLUG, if you will, in the joint end. This is what I do for customers WANT, that more solid hit of the Ebony...JER


Or you can just drill the bottom 9-10 inches of the forearm.
 
JoeyInCali said:
After coring the forearm, you can then put an Ebony PLUG, if you will, in the joint end. This is what I do for customers WANT, that more solid hit of the Ebony...JER


Or you can just drill the bottom 9-10 inches of the forearm.
Click to expand...
Exactly what I do...noone says you HAVE to core all the way through...
 
cutter said:
Good question and gets to the heart of what makes a cue hit good. Is it the outside of the cue, the inside of the cue, the shaft material, taper, ferrule, tip. Let's not forget joint, joint material. Don't have a good answer, there is so many opinions and theories floating around it will make your head spin. So with that said, here is my opinions, and they are just opinions. I core a lot of my front's, mostly for stability and more importantly to me for weight consistency. I don't really like laminated ones for coring. I feel they are not as strong in the axis aligned with the laminations. As you said, drill them out to around .360, put in the pin and then try bending it, it will always break along a glue line. Solid wood will usually break along a growth line, but seems to take more energy to do it.
Not scientific, just personal observation. Put it a cored forearm and it's probably plenty strong, but I just don't like it. My opinion on what affects hit is directly proportional to distance from the ball. The further down the cue from the ball the less it matters. So that means in order, tip,ferrule,shaft,joint,outer part of cue and then core. I'm sure there will be a lot of other opinions, who knows, maybe someone will agree with me.
Click to expand...


Nice post, Steve. From what I know about your cues, I know you know what you are talking about.
 
Thanks for the replys. I guess this is more complicated than I thought. I know a lot of cuemakers are using cored fronts. It seems Steve is right. Just seems risky to poke a hole in a perfectly good forearm. To me by the time you install the pin and cut points into the core that the structual intigerty of the front would be compromised. I really appreciate everybodys input.
 
Coring Forearms?

hoosier_cues said:
Thanks for the replys. I guess this is more complicated than I thought. I know a lot of cuemakers are using cored fronts. It seems Steve is right. Just seems risky to poke a hole in a perfectly good forearm. To me by the time you install the pin and cut points into the core that the structual intigerty of the front would be compromised. I really appreciate everybodys input.
Click to expand...

I do not core any forearms. I use seasoned wood and Nelsonite for stability. I believe that coring a forearm causes more problems than it solves. If the wood is not suitable for cues then just don't use it. If the wood is too heavy for the weight and balance the customer desires then switch to a suitable wood. If the customer does not want to switch to a suitable wood then I respectfully pass on the order. There are many woods available that work wonderful for cues. Some woods are just not intended to become cues but they are pretty. I will pass on pretty for playability and durability every time.

I know that there are many cuemakers that do not agree with me but I also know that many of them do not have the inventory or seasoned wood that I have in stock. I have tied up many thousands of dollars by having hundreds of pieces of wood in stock but when it is time to build a cue I am not at the mercy of anyone. I have what it takes to do the job right. You would be surprised at the "big name" cuemakers that call me wanting to purchase seasoned wood.

Good Cuemaking,
 

I believe that coring a forearm causes more problems than it solves.

What sorts of problems Arnie?
 
assembly

There was a post a while back by Dennis Searing, and I think I would lend the most truth to it. Very roughly stated: the sum of the cue is the sum of the parts, the hit was directly related to how precise the cue was assembled (sorry for butchering your quote Dennis!). I think he was talking about joint types he preferred. He inferred that a solid hit was more related to how precisely the cue was constructed. I think the lamination/coring question is the same. Typical wood glues adhere by pressure. How are you going to get pressure on concentric cylinders? Most corings use glues that bond and fill on contact, similar to marine resins. The same person can yeild a glue joint weak or strong. In the end, I believe that solid, cored, or laminated, it is possible to have a wide range of quality porportional to how precice the millwork and skill of the cumaker is. In conclusion, all cues I have ever seen have "glue joints" and potential weaknesses and strengths, there is no substitute for precice millwork and a skilled craftsmans' experience.
 
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KD hit the nail on the head, you can use the best of everything and if you slop it together, that's what you get. Only comments that worries me are the ones about partial cores. Where the core ends it seems to me that you would have a weak point in the cue. Just my thoughts, if it's working for people, well then I guess it works. I know way back when I once cored a front and put plugs in from both ends. After a few turns on the lathe I accidentally dropped it on the floor. Broke right at the joint between the dowels. Last time I ever did that.
 
Question:
Whats wrong with a maple forearm? There are probably more maple forearms than all the other woods used for forearms. I assume it is because it is the best wood for constructing cues? With that in mind, if an amboyna forearm is cored (for stability) and the core material is a good one piece seasoned stable straight maple that the cuemaker would normally use as forearm material, it is machined precisely, and glued well, what do you have?
 
Jack Madden said:
Question:
Whats wrong with a maple forearm? There are probably more maple forearms than all the other woods used for forearms. I assume it is because it is the best wood for constructing cues? With that in mind, if an amboyna forearm is cored (for stability) and the core material is a good one piece seasoned stable straight maple that the cuemaker would normally use as forearm material, it is machined precisely, and glued well, what do you have?
Click to expand...

I agree Jack, and that is why I core almost all of my cues, even Birdseye and Curly with a .750 Maple dowel made from shaft wood. Straight grain woods such as Maple and Purple heart have always played good.

I believe, a properly glued core and exterior wood has the same strength as a solid piece of the same wood would have. It's a proven fact that modern glues are stronger than the woods that they connect if all is done correctly. The hard part is that you can not see if your combination has glued up well or not as there is no glue line where you can see seepage all the way around. The way I do it is I turn a groove about .020 deep every 2" along the dowel, I then take my tooling in the tool post and place it against the dowel and drag it along the dowel so that another groove is made the length of the dowel. I do this 4 or 5 times down the length and I end up with a dowel that looks like a checkerboard. I do the same as best I can to the inside of the forearm with a boring bar. I then put the two together with West System Epoxy which is thin enough to leave a presence after the dowel has been inserted. I mix the West System in a plastic cup and then put the end of the core in another plastic cup so that I can pour the epoxy into the prong and let it flow out the far end. I then take the dowel and completely cover it in Epoxy and then while turning, I slide it into place forcing out all the excess Epoxy. This insures all areas of both dowel and prong have a coating of glue. I can usually glue up to four prongs at a time before the Epoxy runs low or starts to set.

Dick
 
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I do mine almost identical to rhncue. Except instead of cutting straight grooves I cut a coarse thread with a straight groove on either end. I have also found that if you leave a shoulder on the base of your coring dowel it makes assembly easier.
 
rhncue said:
I agree Jack, and that is why I core almost all of my cues, even Birdseye and Curly with a .750 Maple dowel made from shaft wood. Straight grain woods such as Maple and Purple heart have always played good.

I believe, a properly glued core and exterior wood has the same strength as a solid piece of the same wood would have. It's a proven fact that modern glues are stronger than the woods that they connect if all is done correctly. The hard part is that you can not see if your combination has glued up well or not as there is no glue line where you can see seepage all the way around. The way I do it is I turn a groove about .020 deep every 2" along the dowel, I then take my tooling in the tool post and place it against the dowel and drag it along the dowel so that another groove is made the length of the dowel. I do this 4 or 5 times down the length and I end up with a dowel that looks like a checkerboard. I do the same as best I can to the inside of the forearm with a boring bar. I then put the two together with West System Epoxy which is thin enough to leave a presence after the dowel has been inserted. I mix the West System in a plastic cup and then put the end of the core in another plastic cup so that I can pour the epoxy into the prong and let it flow out the far end. I then take the dowel and completely cover it in Epoxy and then while turning, I slide it into place forcing out all the excess Epoxy. This insures all areas of both dowel and prong have a coating of glue. I can usually glue up to four prongs at a time before the Epoxy runs low or starts to set.

Dick
Click to expand...

Hi Dick; I use the same method as you do...JER
 
Canadian cue said:
I do mine almost identical to rhncue. Except instead of cutting straight grooves I cut a coarse thread with a straight groove on either end. I have also found that if you leave a shoulder on the base of your coring dowel it makes assembly easier.
Click to expand...
I agree with all of your ideas. See pics at bottom of this page http://www.dzcues.com/hoppe_&_core.htm I also mount a tool sideways to score a groove running the length of the core and/or thru the sleeves themselves.
 
Hi Bob, it looks like you are taking the extra effort to ensure the longevity of your cues. Very interesting site I spent a while looking around .
 
BLACKHEARTCUES said:
It is a question on compromise. If you want a Q made of a heavy wood, like Ebony & you want the Q to weigh 18 oz., then you have 2 choices. Either cut the diameter of the Q down, to a smaller size, than usual,OR you can core the heavy wood with a lighter wood. After coring the forearm, you can then put an Ebony PLUG, if you will, in the joint end. This is what I do for customers WANT, that more solid hit of the Ebony...JER
Click to expand...


I was just wondering......can you plug the forearm of a house cue blank? Or a full splice blank with a maple forearm? For instance. If the cue is too butt heavy due to the wood's natural character, is it possible to core the maple forearm with a heavier wood and core the butt end with maple to lighten the butt and put weight in the front. If I sound like an idiot asking, it's because I have no idea of what the hell I'm talking about. :D

But I thought it would be an interesting concept. IF you can't do as I mentioned above. How is it that you can put weight foward on a sneaky pete? Or is it impossible?

Tony
 
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