Coring a cue?

[QMAKER]

CORED CUES--CONTINUED and CONTINUED

Most people on here have less experience with full length cores than you do. How would you describe the hit of the cored all the way through cues compared to those with A-Joints in them? The other types of coring is mostly for weight and stability, but yours has the potential for the greatest change in the hit. Not knocking anything here, just curious what the benefits are concerning the hit.

Chris: Some of the cues I have built with a full length core hit so-so and most, I would venture to say, hit wonderful. If the forearm is ebony, coring it with maple, may be a dissapointment. However, cored with PH, or bocote, changes the equation. Like all cue making, garbage in, garbage out, i.e., if you have lousy forearm wood a bocote core will help some, but it will not give you the hoped for results. The hit can be changed by the core wood to make a softer or a harder hit. This allows for more flexibility in the use of woods you may not of otherwise be used in the cue. This and the elimination of the "A" joint are two of several advantages.

In regards to your comment on Gorilla glue v/s Epoxy: I did an experiment awile back, as I always used epoxy but was intrigued by the Gorilla glue's ability to expand. I took a 3/4" piece of PH and cut glue grooves in it. I then cut two 4" pieces of BE, bored then .758". I glued one piece of the BE to the core using epoxy and the other piece to the other end of the core using Gorilla glue. I waited 2 weeks and then, using a parting tool cut thru the BE to the PH core and divided the BE into 3 parts, that is three rings of epoxy glued BE and three rings of Gorilla glued rings about 1 1/2" long. I then cut away the BE on both ends down to the glue line. Surprise--the epoxy did not adhere to the PH at all points. Bigger surprise-the Gorilla glue not only adhered on all surfaces it actually pulled some of the BE down into the glue grooves I had cut in the PH. I then placed the experiment in a vise and tried to twist the rings loose from the PH core with 12" channel locks. Neither the epoxy or the Gorilla glue would break loose. I then took another sleeve and a hammer and tried to shear the rings loose. Neither of the glues broke loose. My conclusion was that either glue is more than strong enough for the job; however the Gorilla glue did in fact adhere on the entire surface. And, I did not observe any "foam" at the glue line--only foaming was the excess outside of the joint. I will continue to use epoxy as I am concerned that the Gorilla glue may dampen the hit.

Okay, thats it from me about cores. Stick a fork in me, I am done.

Regards,

Bob Flynn
Denali Pool Cues
www.denalicues.com

 

[Dave38]

i am curious too.we have seen the Denali cues ,now lets see the tellitlikeitis cues.

Sometimes, telling it like it is,.......is very quiet
Just kidding.

 

[Dave38]

In regards to your comment on Gorilla glue v/s Epoxy: I did an experiment awile back, as I always used epoxy but was intrigued by the Gorilla glue's ability to expand. I took a 3/4" piece of PH and cut glue grooves in it. I then cut two 4" pieces of BE, bored then .758". I glued one piece of the BE to the core using epoxy and the other piece to the other end of the core using Gorilla glue. I waited 2 weeks and then, using a parting tool cut thru the BE to the PH core and divided the BE into 3 parts, that is three rings of epoxy glued BE and three rings of Gorilla glued rings about 1 1/2" long. I then cut away the BE on both ends down to the glue line. Surprise--the epoxy did not adhere to the PH at all points. Bigger surprise-the Gorilla glue not only adhered on all surfaces it actually pulled some of the BE down into the glue grooves I had cut in the PH. I then placed the experiment in a vise and tried to twist the rings loose from the PH core with 12" channel locks. Neither the epoxy or the Gorilla glue would break loose. I then took another sleeve and a hammer and tried to shear the rings loose. Neither of the glues broke loose. My conclusion was that either glue is more than strong enough for the job; however the Gorilla glue did in fact adhere on the entire surface. And, I did not observe any "foam" at the glue line--only foaming was the excess outside of the joint. I will continue to use epoxy as I am concerned that the Gorilla glue may dampen the hit.

Okay, thats it from me about cores. Stick a fork in me, I am done.

Regards,

Bob Flynn
Denali Pool Cues
www.denalicues.com

No offense meant, but if you don't try a 'test cue' with the gorilla glue, how can one assume it will dampen the hit? Your testing shows that it has the same holding power, if not more, I have not done as extensive of a test as you have, but have done a core using epoxy and 2 cores using Elmer's polyurethane (similar to gorilla) into pieces of ebony, and the tonal, to my ear, was exactly the same. It was definitly different than a solid piece, but similar to each other. I haven't progressed further with those first 2 pieces yet, but the third piece I took further. The reason I did the test, was due to me purchasing a few cored forearms, that I found out were done with a poly type glue, and was concerned about the foaming action, possible gaps, etc. I did three cores and cut one open lengthwise, and was pleasently surprised at the adhesion of it and the 'no gap' situation I found. I tried to dislodge the core half from the cored ebony, with a hammer, chisel, etc. and the wood beneath the bonded joint gave way before the joint could.
With my humble skills at playing pool, I really doubt someone will be able to tell a difference in hit between two cues built identically, execpt for the type of glue used for the core. It would take a 6 person, blindfolded, supervised test session to convince me otherwise.
I believe that coring will change the hit, but doubt that the type of glue will, in any noticable way, otherwise the same glue would have to be used in every operation of cue building including for butt sleeve, the rings, the inlays, the A joint -if used, veneers, the pin in the joint, the collar, the ferrule and the tip, and I know that we don't use the same all around. at least gorilla is a little less expensive, and no mistakes as to mixing, like epoxy. The one thing that I would state is a must, if using the gorilla glue, or any other polyurethane, is to follow the directions, as to moistening both surfaces first, for proper curing. My Dad is a retired cabinet maker, and has drilled me on this repeatedly.

 

[cueman]

No offense meant, but if you don't try a 'test cue' with the gorilla glue, how can one assume it will dampen the hit? Your testing shows that it has the same holding power, if not more, I have not done as extensive of a test as you have, but have done a core using epoxy and 2 cores using Elmer's polyurethane (similar to gorilla) into pieces of ebony, and the tonal, to my ear, was exactly the same. It was definitly different than a solid piece, but similar to each other. I haven't progressed further with those first 2 pieces yet, but the third piece I took further. The reason I did the test, was due to me purchasing a few cored forearms, that I found out were done with a poly type glue, and was concerned about the foaming action, possible gaps, etc. I did three cores and cut one open lengthwise, and was pleasently surprised at the adhesion of it and the 'no gap' situation I found. I tried to dislodge the core half from the cored ebony, with a hammer, chisel, etc. and the wood beneath the bonded joint gave way before the joint could.
With my humble skills at playing pool, I really doubt someone will be able to tell a difference in hit between two cues built identically, execpt for the type of glue used for the core. It would take a 6 person, blindfolded, supervised test session to convince me otherwise.
I believe that coring will change the hit, but doubt that the type of glue will, in any noticable way, otherwise the same glue would have to be used in every operation of cue building including for butt sleeve, the rings, the inlays, the A joint -if used, veneers, the pin in the joint, the collar, the ferrule and the tip, and I know that we don't use the same all around. at least gorilla is a little less expensive, and no mistakes as to mixing, like epoxy. The one thing that I would state is a must, if using the gorilla glue, or any other polyurethane, is to follow the directions, as to moistening both surfaces first, for proper curing. My Dad is a retired cabinet maker, and has drilled me on this repeatedly.

The above statement about moistening both pieces gives problems sometimes for coring in my experience. The instant the glue touches moisture it starts to foam up. If you wet the coring dowel and apply glue you are lucky if you can get it into the core before it sticks. What I do is run a wad of wet paper towel through the cored forearm, put glue all over the coring dowel and shove it through without hesitating and it works fine. I have wet the dowel and applied glue to it and it froze inside my forearm. Probably if pressing boards together how it is normally used or for doing short tenons into stools and such your dad's advice is right on. But for coring forearms you have the potential for problems if you wet both pieces.

 

[Dave38]

Yes, Chris, I stand corrected. When I did my coring test, I actually only moistened the inside of the core, not the dowel. The instructions state both sides, but one side in this case is fine.
Dave

 

[JoeyInCali]

Yes, Chris, I stand corrected. When I did my coring test, I actually only moistened the inside of the core, not the dowel. The instructions state both sides, but one side in this case is fine.
Dave

The instruction states you moinsten one side only unless you are working two hard wood pieces.

 

[QMAKER]

Gorilla Glue V/s Epoxy

No offense meant, but if you don't try a 'test cue' with the gorilla glue, how can one assume it will dampen the hit? Your testing shows that it has the same holding power, if not more, I have not done as extensive of a test as you have, but have done a core using epoxy and 2 cores using Elmer's polyurethane (similar to gorilla) into pieces of ebony, and the tonal, to my ear, was exactly the same. It was definitly different than a solid piece, but similar to each other. I haven't progressed further with those first 2 pieces yet, but the third piece I took further. The reason I did the test, was due to me purchasing a few cored forearms, that I found out were done with a poly type glue, and was concerned about the foaming action, possible gaps, etc. I did three cores and cut one open lengthwise, and was pleasently surprised at the adhesion of it and the 'no gap' situation I found. I tried to dislodge the core half from the cored ebony, with a hammer, chisel, etc. and the wood beneath the bonded joint gave way before the joint could.
With my humble skills at playing pool, I really doubt someone will be able to tell a difference in hit between two cues built identically, execpt for the type of glue used for the core. It would take a 6 person, blindfolded, supervised test session to convince me otherwise.
I believe that coring will change the hit, but doubt that the type of glue will, in any noticable way, otherwise the same glue would have to be used in every operation of cue building including for butt sleeve, the rings, the inlays, the A joint -if used, veneers, the pin in the joint, the collar, the ferrule and the tip, and I know that we don't use the same all around. at least gorilla is a little less expensive, and no mistakes as to mixing, like epoxy. The one thing that I would state is a must, if using the gorilla glue, or any other polyurethane, is to follow the directions, as to moistening both surfaces first, for proper curing. My Dad is a retired cabinet maker, and has drilled me on this repeatedly.

Hi: Two reasons why I am reluctant to use the Gorilla glue are:
1. I am not that good a pool player to be a fair judge of slight differences in the hit, and so on. And, I believe no two cues are ever built the same. Therefore, an emperical test would be impossible.
2. Psychologically I believe my customers like to see epoxy used on their cues, not Gorilla glue.

I just dampen one surface.

Bob Flynn
Denali Pool Cues
www.denalicues.com

 

[swami4u]

Im not a pool cue maker, But i do have a bit of experience in composite technology.
From cold molding all the way up to aerospace pre-preg carbon.
And i will say: ANYONE claiming gorilla glue is equal too West System epoxy
when used with wood is talking out their back side. The finest boats today
wood/glass/Carbon, all have one thing in common. EPOXY! Not glue........
And West System leads the way. You could make a case that paying
a premium price for West System epoxy,when making a cue is over kill, But
trying too say its even close between epoxy and gorilla glue is funny.
Take a piece of end grain light balsa cut into 5 layers, use epoxy too lam... them (5 thick)
then take some gorilla glue, Lam them (all 5) then come show me which
is stronger.......Good read. I love reading cue makers opinions!
Thanks

One thing i would like too know is how you cue makers keep the cue from moving
when you core with epoxy? When epoxy KICKS' it can get a little warm??

 

[masonh]

i have to agree West is the nuts.Gorilla is strong but not in the same league as the west system.in reading the above post it sounds like you are saying Maple is not a good forearm wood.i have always considered Hard Maple to be one of the best forearm woods you can use,but you say PH and Bocote are much better and that Maple makes a "garbage" or "lousy" forearm?maybe i am misreading b/c i always thought Maple to be one of the best.i would also disagree that a one piece core has "several" advantages over a cue with an A-joint.

Chris: Some of the cues I have built with a full length core hit so-so and most, I would venture to say, hit wonderful. If the forearm is ebony, coring it with maple, may be a dissapointment. However, cored with PH, or bocote, changes the equation. Like all cue making, garbage in, garbage out, i.e., if you have lousy forearm wood a bocote core will help some, but it will not give you the hoped for results. The hit can be changed by the core wood to make a softer or a harder hit. This allows for more flexibility in the use of woods you may not of otherwise be used in the cue. This and the elimination of the "A" joint are two of several advantages.

 

[fugdbdt]

Its sad to see this thread running out of fizz! Here's how we can settle this. One game of (FULL CONTACT 9 BALL) between ...Chris... and Tell It Like It Is... I bet there will be no cored cues used in that match! Unless its ebony cues cored with lead. No, this has been an excellent exchange. Especially concerning the glue's. Now if i may throw a hand grenade into this. In this wood to wood application.... and with some excellent wood glue's on the market... what was the problem with WOOD GLUE?

 

[bubsbug]

Deleted
Deleted!