Coring a cue?

dave sutton said:
agreed.... the statement was MORE PRONE not does or will
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No, the statement was "much more prone". I core almost everyone of my cues, usually even the Maple ones. I core with a straight grain .750 Maple or laminate dowel. out of the 250 or 300 cues I've cored in the last 4 years or so I've had one forearm crack and that was made of Olive wood which is very unstable and apt to crack anyway. Maybe I'm just lucky but I'll definitely take the gamble for the benefits received.

Dick
 
rhncue said:
No, the statement was "much more prone". I core almost everyone of my cues, usually even the Maple ones. I core with a straight grain .750 Maple or laminate dowel. out of the 250 or 300 cues I've cored in the last 4 years or so I've had one forearm crack and that was made of Olive wood which is very unstable and apt to crack anyway. Maybe I'm just lucky but I'll definitely take the gamble for the benefits received.

Dick
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and this is with cutting points and inlays in EVERY cue all 250 or 300
 
No, what you said was "makes the cue much more prone to cracking". Then you said "Especially when inlaying the forearm or cored handle".
The average person reading that could easily interpret those statements as meaning a cored cue is less than desireable.

You of all people should know the most prominent cause for cue failure is warpage not cracking. Instances of a cue
cracking due to it being inlayed are very rare in my opinion. If an inlay is fitted too tight sure there is a chance of the inlay
or cue cracking. That isnt exclusive to cored cues though and its the makers job to install the inlays with the correct
tolerance.

In your next post you relate coring to ferrules. I think I understand the point you were trying to make but let me
remind you of your early videos. You demonstrate installing a ferrule by driving it on with a hammer(?). If the fit is
so tight the ferrule needs to be forced on with a tool, isnt that putting excessive stress on the ferrule wall? Same with a core.
If the core is fitted too tight there will be stress on the parent wood not to mention being epoxy starved.

Its very easy to point out the negatives in any technique. The harder part of our job is finding a way to overcome them.

If the positives of coring (for a definite reason) are put on one side of the scale and the negatives on the other,
the decision to core or not is very clear. Im not saying all cues should be cored. I am saying it should be done for a
particular reason not just because we can.

Again you refer to inlays in cored cue where wall thickness is thinner. Simple, dont put inlays there. If the customer
wants inlays there dont core the cue.

No I have never had a cue crack while coring it. But I dont pump hot air right off the head of a small compressor through the drill either.
 
dave sutton said:
and this is with cutting points and inlays in EVERY cue all 250 or 300
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Other than Sneaky Petes, 95% of my cues have points and or inlays. I seldom build just plain cues. By the way, the one cue that cracked, made of Olive wood, had no points or inlays in the prong, yet.

I'm not saying that what Chris is stating is wrong, but apparently, his observations are greatly different than mine. I believe that most problems occur from cue maker errors, not coring itself. I can see where problems could occur if the builder is using unsuitable materials when coring. The core and the prong must be suitably dry. If the core is dry and stable and the prong still has moisture then the prong could crack as it dries and tries to shrink and can't as the core, being dry, is already at it's dry size. Same thing if the core is to dry. When it tries to acclimatize, the expansion will do damage. After all, that is how the Romans split rock, by inserting a piece of wood in a crevice and letting the wood absorb moisture.

Dick
 
What Dick said....
The only cracks I've ever seen in cored cues were snakewood. It cracks by itself, let alone when cored. I'm not sure I would agree with the statement that (properly) cored cues are more prone to cracking at all. I've cored quite a few cues with .755" cores, and put lots of inlays in them, with zero problems.
 
Do any of you guys who are upset with me for pointing out a what I see as a weakness in cored cues know of any downsides to coring or is coring all 100% positive?
If it is 100% positive then do you suggest coring 100% of our cues?
With a .750" core the wall thickness is less than 1/16 of an inch behind the joint. Please explain how this makes that area less likely to crack than if it was solid or even equally unlikely?
Help me to understand the physics.
Or do I just live with the assumption that even though it is weaker it is still strong enough and does not need to be a concern?
By the way I have cored some cues.
 
cueman said:
Do any of you guys who are upset with me for pointing out a what I see as a weakness in cored cues know of any downsides to coring or is coring all 100% positive?
If it is 100% positive then do you suggest coring 100% of our cues?
With a .750" core the wall thickness is less than 1/16 of an inch behind the joint. Please explain how this makes that area less likely to crack than if it was solid or even equally unlikely?
Help me to understand the physics.
Or do I just live with the assumption that even though it is weaker it is still strong enough and does not need to be a concern?
By the way I have cored some cues.
Click to expand...
I think it's because if you bend the whole cue, the shaft will bend way way more before that joint area of the butt . And if you put stress on the pin, the bottom of the pin will put stress on the dowel itself, not the sleeve.
Somehow 3/4 cored cues are not breaking. I have not seen one break yet.
 
cueman said:
Do any of you guys who are upset with me for pointing out a what I see as a weakness in cored cues know of any downsides to coring or is coring all 100% positive?
If it is 100% positive then do you suggest coring 100% of our cues?
With a .750" core the wall thickness is less than 1/16 of an inch behind the joint. Please explain how this makes that area less likely to crack than if it was solid or even equally unlikely?
Help me to understand the physics.
Or do I just live with the assumption that even though it is weaker it is still strong enough and does not need to be a concern?
By the way I have cored some cues.
Click to expand...

Chris, although I'm not an engineer and may be wrong on this but I believe the thinner the outer wood is the better. expansion and contraction certainly makes things crack. Three coats of finish on a cue may crack but not likely. if you put on a 100 coats so that the finish is a 1/4 inch thick then you can guarantee that it will crack. One of the reasons for coring is to make the prong lighter than the heavier outer wood. Henceforth the larger the core the lighter the cue. Secondly, the reason you core is to stabilize an outer wood that likes to move. Henceforth the larger the core the less likely the outer wood would be able to over power the core. The thinner the outer wood then there is less mass for the affects of moisture and temperature change to affect. A 2% expansion 0f 1/16 inch is not nearly the amount of a 2% expansion of .850. As most cue makers know or certainly should know is that the union of two pieces of wood, properly glued together is stronger than the single piece of wood itself. This means that you don't have .750 of one wood and a .100 piece of another but only one piece of wood .850. Not only that but instead of having one piece of .850 of the outer wood that may like to move or crack but you have a piece that is.850 and has the properties of the more stable core.

Dick
 
Wow, that's probably the most involved thread I've ever started. Thank you all for the information.

Just to give a little more info, I'm not intending to get any inlays or points or anything. Just a true coco or BEM plain jane with a wrap. I'm no sure if it changes the debate somewhat, but it seems like it might.

Thanks again for all of the info. You certainly are a knowledgeable bunch!

(And to think, a whole discussion without anyone saying that a cue will hit like a ton of bricks, hit like a sledgehammer, or play jam up! I should have come to "Ask The Cuemaker" much sooner!)
 
cueman said:
Do any of you guys who are upset with me for pointing out a what I see as a weakness in cored cues know of any downsides to coring or is coring all 100% positive?
If it is 100% positive then do you suggest coring 100% of our cues?
With a .750" core the wall thickness is less than 1/16 of an inch behind the joint. Please explain how this makes that area less likely to crack than if it was solid or even equally unlikely?
Help me to understand the physics.
Or do I just live with the assumption that even though it is weaker it is still strong enough and does not need to be a concern?
By the way I have cored some cues.
Click to expand...
Who's upset? :D
And what makes you think it's weaker? I might agree if you didn't use glue, and simply pressed a core in... but the glue should actually make it STRONGER, not weaker. Last time I checked, laminated wood is almost always more stable, and stronger than non-laminated.
 
Chris, Dick did an excellent job at explaining some of it so I wont attempt to add to his comments.

Im sure my comments below are not going to go over well with some of the readers here but they are true nevertheless.
I have to wonder how many other makers are thinking the same as I am but dont want to comment for fear of hurting
your feelings. Just to be clear on that subject that is not my intent with this post.

What I am about to say has more to do with ethics and mutual respect than it does coring a cue.

You have been a member here for some time and your views and opinions are respected by many that read the forum.
I think you may agreee that many buyers might make their cue purchase decisions based on material they read here.
I think you may also agree that many of the visitors here are not well versed on the mechanics of building a cue.

For at least that reason those persons read, absorb, and pretty often quote statements or claims that are made by yourself and other makers.
Its the internet age and unfortunately the world interprets words over the internet as being absolutely true. What some fail to realize
is, those are the words of a human being and they are (normally) only that persons opinions. In your opinion a cored cue is much more prone
to cracking. In my opinion as well as others it is not. So who shall the visitor believe?

This forum is "Ask The Cuemaker" but for crying out loud even we makers cant agree on what is the better method. How in the world are
the customers supposed to make a good decision when we cant?

Rather than making the statement you did wouldnt it have been better to have said "in your experience" or even the worn out term "IMO"?
In my own experience a cored cue is one of the best ideas that has come along in decades. Ive studied it. Ive gone through more wood
than I care to recall experimenting with it. Ive cut an untold number of cored pieces of wood in half just to see what was happening
inside. Ive even rigged up a hydraulic jack with a gage and put lateral pressure on a cored piece just to see how strong it was. I bet a man a
cup of coffee one night that I could stand on my cored cue with it laying across the foot rail of the bar and it wouldn't break. It didnt!

The point Im taking so long to make is, Im asking you to give the individual maker the opportunity to educate their customer to the benefits of coring rather than making a bold statement to the effect that a cored cue is prone to cracking.

Of course if you have personal knowledge or experience that will support your statement I would really appreciate hearing it and Im sure others would as well. In the meantime Im sticking with what I know works and works well.
 
219Dave said:
Wow, that's probably the most involved thread I've ever started. Thank you all for the information.

Just to give a little more info, I'm not intending to get any inlays or points or anything. Just a true coco or BEM plain jane with a wrap. I'm no sure if it changes the debate somewhat, but it seems like it might.

Thanks again for all of the info. You certainly are a knowledgeable bunch!

(And to think, a whole discussion without anyone saying that a cue will hit like a ton of bricks, hit like a sledgehammer, or play jam up! I should have come to "Ask The Cuemaker" much sooner!)
Click to expand...
Dave, Best advice I can offer is to talk direct with the cuemaker you have or will choose. Just as Ford and General Motors have different thoughts & ideas, cuemakers do as well (stating the obvious).;)
 
Not one negative mentioned or any of my questions answered for the most part. I asked if there were any negatives at all. None mentioned. So I take it that there are none IYO. I asked should we core all cues then since there is only 100% positive reasons to core. I didn't see an answer.
Since no one else will give any cons on coring I am going to go ahead and give another one, which is also a pro to some. A cored ebony cue will not play like ebony. that is a plus to some and a negative to others. I have in my own experience seen wood crack when coring and crack when expanding glue is drying. That is rare and does not effect a finished cue as that is the cuemakers loss in production.
Okay since you feel my words will hurt your sales, I retract saying much more prone to cracking and will just say a little more prone to cracking in my opinion. Cored cues are holding up better than I expected them to when everyone started this many years ago. Non-cored cues are a little more prone to warping or maybe I should say with some woods much more prone to warping. I tried to give pros and cons honestly and feel like the heavy coring promoters have not really done so, since I have been unable to get even one negative about coring. Here is another con. Coring Cocobolo will make it lose its tonal qualities it is famous for in a cue.
Coring gives the cuemaker the ability to make all his cues play pretty close to the same. Notice I did not say exactly the same as some claim their cored cues do. That is a plus to some and a negative to those who want the hit of certain woods besides maple.
As far as coring making the piece of wood stronger because of the glue. If glued with epoxy that is true only to the extent that it is making a thin piece of wood stronger than it would be if left alone. But still not less likely to crack than if left whole IMO. If glued with Gorilla glue then I think it helps very little as I think that foam is weaker than the wood. Again that is my opinion and not scientific fact. To me it is obvious that it is weaker when cored out really thin. To others it is not. But like I said earlier maybe it is strong enough. That is really all that matters is if it is strong enough. It seems to be most of the time so core away. I plan to when I need to reduce weight or use a wood that I don't trust for stability or strength. I am a member of the coring club too. I just use it less often than many others.
 
TellsItLikeItIs said:
Chris, Dick did an excellent job at explaining some of it so I wont attempt to add to his comments.

Im sure my comments below are not going to go over well with some of the readers here but they are true nevertheless.
I have to wonder how many other makers are thinking the same as I am but dont want to comment for fear of hurting
your feelings. Just to be clear on that subject that is not my intent with this post.

What I am about to say has more to do with ethics and mutual respect than it does coring a cue.

You have been a member here for some time and your views and opinions are respected by many that read the forum.
I think you may agreee that many buyers might make their cue purchase decisions based on material they read here.
I think you may also agree that many of the visitors here are not well versed on the mechanics of building a cue.

For at least that reason those persons read, absorb, and pretty often quote statements or claims that are made by yourself and other makers.
Its the internet age and unfortunately the world interprets words over the internet as being absolutely true. What some fail to realize
is, those are the words of a human being and they are (normally) only that persons opinions. In your opinion a cored cue is much more prone
to cracking. In my opinion as well as others it is not. So who shall the visitor believe?

This forum is "Ask The Cuemaker" but for crying out loud even we makers cant agree on what is the better method. How in the world are
the customers supposed to make a good decision when we cant?

Rather than making the statement you did wouldnt it have been better to have said "in your experience" or even the worn out term "IMO"?
In my own experience a cored cue is one of the best ideas that has come along in decades. Ive studied it. Ive gone through more wood
than I care to recall experimenting with it. Ive cut an untold number of cored pieces of wood in half just to see what was happening
inside. Ive even rigged up a hydraulic jack with a gage and put lateral pressure on a cored piece just to see how strong it was. I bet a man a
cup of coffee one night that I could stand on my cored cue with it laying across the foot rail of the bar and it wouldn't break. It didnt!

The point Im taking so long to make is, Im asking you to give the individual maker the opportunity to educate their customer to the benefits of coring rather than making a bold statement to the effect that a cored cue is prone to cracking.

Of course if you have personal knowledge or experience that will support your statement I would really appreciate hearing it and Im sure others would as well. In the meantime Im sticking with what I know works and works well.
Click to expand...
I think mutual respect would have involved more respect towards another cuebuilder and had this said in a PM rather than dress him down in full view of the 'prospective customers' that do view this forum
Just MHO
Both sides have valid points, and the customer should be aware that there are possible side affects that may or may not happen as well as any positive effects. I have seen a cue that was built by someone here on this board (and I will NOT say who) develope a crack in the forearm, but have also seen a non-cored split. I don't know why, but somethings just happen. Nobody has a clue if their cue is cored or not, unless the joint shows it at the pin, or they are told it is by the maker of the cue. No need to run someone down in front of the world over personal opinions. A question was asked for opinions, and they were given, then it is for the customer to decide what path they follow. In the words of my grandfather, 'opinions are like a$$h@les, everybody has them, and they all stink!':D
Just my 2.5 cents
Dave
 
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cueman said:
Not one negative mentioned or any of my questions answered for the most part. I asked if there were any negatives at all. None mentioned. So I take it that there are none IYO. I asked should we core all cues then since there is only 100% positive reasons to core. I didn't see an answer.
Since no one else will give any cons on coring I am going to go ahead and give another one, which is also a pro to some. A cored ebony cue will not play like ebony. that is a plus to some and a negative to others. I have in my own experience seen wood crack when coring and crack when expanding glue is drying. That is rare and does not effect a finished cue as that is the cuemakers loss in production.
Okay since you feel my words will hurt your sales, I retract saying much more prone to cracking and will just say a little more prone to cracking in my opinion. Cored cues are holding up better than I expected them to when everyone started this many years ago. Non-cored cues are a little more prone to warping or maybe I should say with some woods much more prone to warping. I tried to give pros and cons honestly and feel like the heavy coring promoters have not really done so, since I have been unable to get even one negative about coring. Here is another con. Coring Cocobolo will make it lose its tonal qualities it is famous for in a cue.
Coring gives the cuemaker the ability to make all his cues play pretty close to the same. Notice I did not say exactly the same as some claim their cored cues do. That is a plus to some and a negative to those who want the hit of certain woods besides maple.
As far as coring making the piece of wood stronger because of the glue. If glued with epoxy that is true only to the extent that it is making a thin piece of wood stronger than it would be if left alone. But still not less likely to crack than if left whole IMO. If glued with Gorilla glue then I think it helps very little as I think that foam is weaker than the wood. Again that is my opinion and not scientific fact. To me it is obvious that it is weaker when cored out really thin. To others it is not. But like I said earlier maybe it is strong enough. That is really all that matters is if it is strong enough. It seems to be most of the time so core away. I plan to when I need to reduce weight or use a wood that I don't trust for stability or strength. I am a member of the coring club too. I just use it less often than many others.
Click to expand...

In one of the above posts I stated that I core almost all of my cues, even Maple ones. Some time ago, not in this thread but another, I stated why I core my cues which was to make them play similar, along with the other reasons of weight control and stability. I don't feel there are any drawbacks to coring if done correctly. If the core is not properly glued to the prong properly then there could be trouble there. Someone said that they cut a number of cues apart after coring to see how it worked. I did the same thing when first starting so that I could see if there was any glue starvation anywhere in the fore arm. I've got my technique down now so that I know all parts are glued properly. I, and I believe most who core the prongs use West System. I bought Gorilla glue at a Wood show in 1996. I tried it on a few things and never liked it's foaming action as it reminded me of the foam sealer for walls and such. I knew it wood make a for a dead feel in a cue and haven't had any since.

There are many ways to get from N.Y. to Cal.. What is the right way for one may not be the right way for another. This is especially true in cue making as it is more of a craft than an industry. There are many ways to do the same task and each has developed his own way that is best for him. Through trial and error, many ideas that were thought as good are found not to work out. This is the type of experience that can be passed on to others, not the successes but the pitfalls. When I hear someone saying that they are doing something that I've had experience with I know if it will succeed or fail. I don't know if their technique will be as successful as mine but I know if it can be done. If I don't have experience in that area then I would just be guessing and another's guess is just as good as mine. Like I said earlier, I core nearly every one of my cues and I've had no problems that I could directly blame on coring. It is for this reason that I had to respond to your statement. If you would have said occasionally caused cracks or occasionally caused a problem then I would never had responded as Your experience may be a little different than mine but commonly causing cracks or problems is to different of a result of what I have found in coring.

Dick
 
This whole thing is getting blown out of proportion.... No one said coring has no negatives, and Chris never meant to slam those that core cues.
If you count the construction part of it, what Chris said is very true. Coring certain materials can be tricky, and unless you are careful, the wood can split on you. Once properly glued up though, I think a cored cue is every bit as solid, if not more so, even when cutting inlays or points.
 
this thread hurts my brain and i dont care to ever see wood again bc of it. not one of you is wrong
 
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