Coring, tolerances?

I have watched every video you have uploaded Bob, and the quality of videos and the clear language you use to explain what is going on is a model for everyone else who wants to make cuebuilding videos.
The way you make cores in the video is just how I do it.
 
KJ Cues said:
Y'all must just have a whole bunch of wood that you have no faith in.
If that's the case, why'd you buy the wood in the first place ?
Are you of the assumption that coring will improve the harmonics of the wood ?
You do realize that's the compromise you're making, don't you ?
You'd be hard-pressed to convince me that you've improved the resonance of BRW
by stuffing a mystery-wood rod thru the center of it, surround by Gorilla glue.
OK, maybe purity of resonance doesn't matter to you. I get that. Wouldn't veneer be cheaper ?

Luthiers laminate for the purpose of fine-tuning the resonance. Cue-makers don't have a clue.
CMs want the pretty but unwittingly destroy the purity of resonance their chosen wood would
otherwise provide. Like I said, go with veneer and you'll save yourselves time and money.

Let's talk about the buying public. They've fallen for the latest new/old fad as well.
They don't care about resonance. They now get to use the latest buzz-words : "It's cored".
Well, yes it is. Now what does that mean to you Mr. Buyer ? I'd love to hear your thoughts.

You might have guessed by now that I'm not a fan of coring unnecessarily.
That would suggest that at some rare times, coring is necessary. IE, I'd core Big Leaf Maple.
Coring has been around forever but today it's hot again. It's the latest fad in building.
Those that core as a matter of routine have joined the club, they are moving the bar.
In which direction is a subject for debate.
And the debate will continue because how else are you going to learn ?

This is addressed to no one in particular but rather to all members of the coring-crusade.

Yours Truly, KJ
Click to expand...

I sincerely believe that if you took the leap to equip a gun drill & build a few cues with cores, learn by doing rather than debating, we wouldn't be having this conversation. It's a small investment & some changes in how you construct a cue, but I really do believe you'd be singing a different tune (pun intended) once you do it.

If you genuinely believe you are right, then you have nothing to lose by proving it to yourself. Give coring an honest effort. If it sucks then you know it for sure. However, beware that you may just find Pandora's box. I'd never dare tell you that you're wrong. It's not my place to do so, and wouldn't do anything but piss you off. But I do believe you have a passion for cues & as such would probably enjoy the experiment even if it only affirmed your current beliefs.
 
My position is not without basis. I have dabbled with coring and in the process gained knowledge.
I'm not all in favor of coring a F/A unless the build demands it; Curly Red Maple, Big Leaf, etc.
I try to abstain from those builds. My current fancy is Rosewood F/As in their pure form.
When I build a Kingwood cue I want it to hit like Kingwood. That F/A should not be cored.
When I choose a particular wood for a F/A, I want that tone & resonance I know that wood provides.
I have no intentions of compromising it.

We have builders, notably on this forum, that build for consistency in the hit of the cue.
I'm not knocking that. They've found their formula and that's the direction they prefer to go.
I don't build for consistency of the hit. I use a lot of different woods and expect them to hit differently.
Same woods should hit similarly. Different woods should hit differently. It's all in what you want.
The options offered aren't always in the looks. IMO, coring diminishes that. I appeal to the Connoisseur.

Dave B. used a word recently in a previous post that for 3 days now has been in my head; "Legacy".
That is the most appropriate word I think I've ever heard mentioned regarding this topic.
We are creating cues that we will be known for. Thanx Dave, you nailed it.
Both David B. and Mike Webb, two CMs that I have a great deal of respect and admiration for,
gave reason for their choice of coring and some suggestion of their methods. They are building their legacy.
Each will be known for building incredible cues. Their legacy precedes them, they're already well known.
I believe that both spoke of structural integrity. No argument from me as I know coring will improve that.
But like anything else in building, there is a trade-off. At this point in time, I'm not willing to deal.
Who knows, at some point I may take another look but for the moment, I'm only focused on what's in front of me.
I really don't mind that a lot of my cues hit differently. They're supposed to.

KJ
 
Good answer Kj. I respect you too. I won't dispute what you wrote because I use to feel that way. I changed, but it's not for everyone.
 
I was pretty negative about coring 15 to 20 years ago when it started being more popular. I figured over time those cues would be falling apart or having internal buzzes. Then after about ten years of watching them hold up, I started doing it to adjust weight or add stability or strength to certain woods. Now everyone seems to have strong opinions that have not been proven wrong or right in my opinion. Like 4 thousandths or 10 thousandths tolerances, epoxy or gorilla glue. All of those tolerances and methods have held up for about twenty years now. Why do we as cuemakers develop the I am smarter than everyone else cause I do it this way or that way?????? You would not believe the egos I have seen develop with cuemakers once they figure out a few little tricks they think is better than the way most others have told them they do it.
 
cueman said:
I was pretty negative about coring 15 to 20 years ago when it started being more popular. I figured over time those cues would be falling apart or having internal buzzes. Then after about ten years of watching them hold up, I started doing it to adjust weight or add stability or strength to certain woods. Now everyone seems to have strong opinions that have not been proven wrong or right in my opinion. Like 4 thousandths or 10 thousandths tolerances, epoxy or gorilla glue. All of those tolerances and methods have held up for about twenty years now. Why do we as cuemakers develop the I am smarter than everyone else cause I do it this way or that way?????? You would not believe the egos I have seen develop with cuemakers once they figure out a few little tricks they think is better than the way most others have told them they do it.
Click to expand...


Hmmm. It almost sounds like your saying. Some of us shouldn't care eneogh to suggest. Interesting. You might have a point.
 
My comments on this may not be worth the time to post it, but here it goes
Everyone has their own opinion on this subject, but I wonder how many people in this thread that either question the use of coring and or oppose coring have honestly actually tried it and tried to master it like they have mastered their own methods of building? It's very easy to put something down that you haven't tried and perfected to your liking....Same goes for the glues of preference...I don't think someone should say that this or that glue is the BEST or HAS NO place in cuebuilding just because they don't use it themselves...If that is the case, Hide glue would have never been used in the older cues. Every Glue has a purpose, otherwise it wouldn't have been developed. The glues we use now, it'll be 100 years before there may be a failure, if we use the right procedures. Considering hide glue can go 30-40 years before a buzz may be heard in a cue. (I have an Abe Rich blank I made into a break cue and it just started to have an A joint buzz, but it's 36 yrs old) Taking the time to finding out how to use that glue to the best of it's ability is what makes a builder smarter...IMO.I myself personally like using a certain brand of polyglue. I like the fact that it won't suck into a burl like redwood and leave a dry joint...slow set epoxy will do exactly that because by nature it wicks in hours before it actually setsup and hardens, That is what it does, but it does it way to well, IMO, when it comes to softer woods like burls, unless the burl is stabilized. which is another can of worms...lol. I have tried west systems epoxy, and even titebond wood glue. Didn't like the feel of either when shooting with them. I like the feel of the hit in a cue that I have made with polyglue. I have also found that polyglue will also exposes AND fill any cracks in the outer wood you are coring...even the smallest ones alongside points that were glued with West epoxy. Normal epoxy used for gluing cores normally won't do that. To me, filling these with adhesive will give a more complete, and solid surface, and better suited for finish applications.
I find it interesting that some have given the opinion suggesting that, or given the impression that using gundrills may somehow create a hole that is inaccurately drilled or less than precise. These same drills, that bore/drill what ever you want to call it, create VERY precise, VERY concentric holes in Gun Barrels out of steel sometimes over 30" in length, and only a .0005" or less off from one end to another. These holes that go much deeper than cue builders normally do, into much harder material. Can a hole be off centered? Yes, but it's usually not the drill's fault...as with anything, if the setup is not done right, you get crap results. If you are holding the piece perfectly centered between the front chuck, and either a rear chuck or collet in a steady rest while boring it, and the drill holder is rock solid and movement is smooth, the drill will be hard pressed to deviate from the right path. How many here that tried doing coring, actually put a dial indicator on the front of the blank, and also one at the other chuck or steady rest and shim it til it runs dead straight before boring? I didn't originally and chased my tail trying to figure out how I f'd it up for quite awhile before I realized what I wasn't doing correctly.
Well,
Just my ramblings on it.
Dave
 
One thing I'll say that has nothing to do with cue building, but just epoxy in general (which I DO know a little about), WEST straight out of the can is a laminating epoxy. It's designed to do laminations and fiberglass. It's not a structural epoxy and has poor gap filling properties. Structural epoxies have fillers...wood flour and things like that, for example. This is partly why structural epoxies tend to be thicker and are cloudy when you mix them.

You can make WEST into a structural epoxy by mixing in some filler. Then you essentially have something like a T88 (which I actually like a lot, BTW), but of course you'll need more clearance.

I guess what I'm saying is whether you're making cues, boats or airplanes, you need to match the clearance to the specific glue and mixture you're using. Epoxy is particularly tricky because you can actually make a starved joint, even with just too much clamping force. That's practically impossible to do with traditional wood glues (Titebond, hide glue, etc) without industrial clamping pressures, but it's incredibly easy to do with epoxy. You can even scrape it out when inserting something like a core and end up with a starved joint if you're not paying attention.

But if you're life depends on it, like an airplane wing, the go to glue is Resorcinol. I'm not sure it really has a place in cue building, though. Maybe laminating veneers. It likes super tight joints and high clamping pressures.

Anyhow, that's just $.02 from someone with practically no cue building experience, but with a little glue knowledge.
 
Michael Webb said:
Hmmm. It almost sounds like your saying. Some of us shouldn't care eneogh to suggest. Interesting. You might have a point.
Click to expand...
Not saying anything about not making suggestions. I just don't understand why just about any thread that lasts very long on here turns into people treating the others like idiots when pretty much all the methods work. And believe it or not just about every one of them has a benefit over the other methods. It is not the methods being presented that bug me it is the attitudes that seem to develop.

We seem to have forgotten what our mama's told us over and over again.
"Play Nice!"
 
john coloccia said:
One thing I'll say that has nothing to do with cue building, but just epoxy in general (which I DO know a little about), WEST straight out of the can is a laminating epoxy. It's designed to do laminations and fiberglass. It's not a structural epoxy and has poor gap filling properties. Structural epoxies have fillers...wood flour and things like that, for example. This is partly why structural epoxies tend to be thicker and are cloudy when you mix them.

You can make WEST into a structural epoxy by mixing in some filler. Then you essentially have something like a T88 (which I actually like a lot, BTW), but of course you'll need more clearance.

I guess what I'm saying is whether you're making cues, boats or airplanes, you need to match the clearance to the specific glue and mixture you're using. Epoxy is particularly tricky because you can actually make a starved joint, even with just too much clamping force. That's practically impossible to do with traditional wood glues (Titebond, hide glue, etc) without industrial clamping pressures, but it's incredibly easy to do with epoxy. You can even scrape it out when inserting something like a core and end up with a starved joint if you're not paying attention.

But if you're life depends on it, like an airplane wing, the go to glue is Resorcinol. I'm not sure it really has a place in cue building, though. Maybe laminating veneers. It likes super tight joints and high clamping pressures.

Anyhow, that's just $.02 from someone with practically no cue building experience, but with a little glue knowledge.
Click to expand...
You shared some great information. I really like West System for gluing flat surfaces like veneers and points into v-grooves and anywhere else I need a thinner mixture like the A-Joint and stitch rings. But for just about everything else I use the thicker epoxies.
 
I have used some epoxies, not for cuebuilding, that have microbeads in them especially for the purpose to prevent clamping pressures from squeezing out all the epoxy, thereby leaving a pretty consistent layer between the 2 surfaces.
Dave
 
Dave38 said:
I have used some epoxies, not for cuebuilding, that have microbeads in them especially for the purpose to prevent clamping pressures from squeezing out all the epoxy, thereby leaving a pretty consistent layer between the 2 surfaces.
Dave
Click to expand...
Boat builders have been doing that for a very long time, as well as a combination of priming the wood surfaces with mixed resin, then applying the glue, the same resin with micro spheres and micro fibre added. The spheres help to centralise the pieces if round like in my case, and on flat surfaces, as you say , keeps a constant gap for the resin to be effective.
Neil
 
conetip said:
Boat builders have been doing that for a very long time, as well as a combination of priming the wood surfaces with mixed resin, then applying the glue, the same resin with micro spheres and micro fibre added. The spheres help to centralise the pieces if round like in my case, and on flat surfaces, as you say , keeps a constant gap for the resin to be effective.
Neil
Click to expand...
Boom!
They have free videos for everyone to see.
Years ago I did mock-up cues.
Stuck them in the trunk of my car for a few weeks.
The one with WS did not develop a buzz.
Also, if you use WS 206 for gluing joint screw, try using blow torch to get that scres out. You will find out it holds up to heat like you wouldn't believe.
 
I have not done coring yet but what do you guys think of this method to prevent "starved joint" issues when using thin epoxies. After boring the hole, apply thin epoxy and let it soak into the wood, let it dry and re-bore. Same thing with the coring dowel - apply thin epoxy and let it soak and then turn down to size again. Are there any downsides to this method?
 
Chris Abaya Cues said:
I have not done coring yet but what do you guys think of this method to prevent "starved joint" issues when using thin epoxies. After boring the hole, apply thin epoxy and let it soak into the wood, let it dry and re-bore. Same thing with the coring dowel - apply thin epoxy and let it soak and then turn down to size again. Are there any downsides to this method?
Click to expand...

I don't see an advantage to this Chris, actually I think maybe you get away from the chemical bond you are looking for.
 
Chris Abaya Cues said:
I have not done coring yet but what do you guys think of this method to prevent "starved joint" issues when using thin epoxies. After boring the hole, apply thin epoxy and let it soak into the wood, let it dry and re-bore. Same thing with the coring dowel - apply thin epoxy and let it soak and then turn down to size again. Are there any downsides to this method?
Click to expand...

It works. I used to do it that way. But for what I think is the hot setup, see post 53 above.

Robin Snyder
 
cueman said:
Not saying anything about not making suggestions. I just don't understand why just about any thread that lasts very long on here turns into people treating the others like idiots when pretty much all the methods work. And believe it or not just about every one of them has a benefit over the other methods. It is not the methods being presented that bug me it is the attitudes that seem to develop.

We seem to have forgotten what our mama's told us over and over again.
"Play Nice!"
Click to expand...

I fail to see the negativity you speak of, in regards to this thread. There have been some good info shared, some opinions, some disagreements, but no attitude to speak of. It certainly exists in other threads but I don't see it in this one.
 
conetip said:
Boat builders have been doing that for a very long time, as well as a combination of priming the wood surfaces with mixed resin, then applying the glue, the same resin with micro spheres and micro fibre added. The spheres help to centralise the pieces if round like in my case, and on flat surfaces, as you say , keeps a constant gap for the resin to be effective.
Neil
Click to expand...

Golf club makers use these gluing techniques as well. For those interested google "shafting beads".

Dave <-- not a cuemaker but assisted a top-tier clubmaker
 
Dave38 said:
Everyone has their own opinion on this subject, but I wonder how many people in this thread that either question the use of coring and or oppose coring have honestly actually tried it and tried to master it like they have mastered their own methods of building?
Click to expand...

I wondered the same thing. It's tough to wade through the hogwash. You have to consider the source. Before I put much stock in somebody's comments I first ask myself a few questions. Who are they? How long have they been making cues & more importantly how many cues have they made? Do they have a history of thoughtful discussion or do they typically babble BS? Lastly, what is their purpose for posting? Is it for discussion sake or are they fishing?

For whatever reason our industry is ass backwards. In most industries, experience is a good thing. With cue making, a guy who makes a lot of cues gets knocked for "pumping them out". At the same time, a guy who makes a couple basic 4-pointers per year is a "master". We have guys posting regularly who have only built a couple very basic cues but you'd think they are experts in every facet of the craft. Chris is very much correct in that regard.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top