Could a Robot Pool arm/machine

u12armresl

One Pocket back cutter
Silver Member
I've seen that video where a robot arm shoots pool (very intricate and cool)

I'm wondering since there is a lot of physics and potential mathematical calculations in the robot version (cloth speed, ball speed, speed of the robot arm, force, etc.)

Anyway, I'm wondering could you take a 9 or 10' and set up a ridiculously hard layout, (but with no tied up balls since you can't always predict the path balls will take after being broken up) when I say ridiculously hard, I mean length of the table, up and down the table each shot, bad angles, etc. basically everything.

Could the machine with the programming for every shot clear this table?
 
I've seen that video where a robot arm shoots pool (very intricate and cool)

I'm wondering since there is a lot of physics and potential mathematical calculations in the robot version (cloth speed, ball speed, speed of the robot arm, force, etc.)

Anyway, I'm wondering could you take a 9 or 10' and set up a ridiculously hard layout, (but with no tied up balls since you can't always predict the path balls will take after being broken up) when I say ridiculously hard, I mean length of the table, up and down the table each shot, bad angles, etc. basically everything.

Could the machine with the programming for every shot clear this table?

I don't see why not. I've seen people 'run racks' on computer games.

I think it would depend more on entering the correct information into the 'robot', though. The person plugging in the correct speed/CB contact/OB contact has to have some knowledge about the game as well as how the 'robot' shoots/strokes. With practice, it's feasible.

Computers do what you tell them, plain and simple. In this scenario, I think it depends more on the operator than anything.
 
If the software was competent, so that it adjusted for changes in humidity an the wear to the cloth and rails as the months went by, the robot would keep running balls untill the power ran out.
Basically, the machine is not going to miss untill it breaks so the trick would be compensating for the robot wearing out the cloth and rails, cue tip, etc. as it runs thousands of racks before missing.
Eddie
 
I know a bit about robot's (I program them for a living) and I have seen a few very cool robots online including one that shot pool. I have put a cue on the end of a Fanuc 420 myself and shot a few shots. I think there would be a lot of work or investment needed to make a runout robot. More than anyone would ever spend since we cannot even get a decent sponsor for real pool. The primary issue's are vision, including calibration, decision making, interference (balls and rail). A robot would have to deal with all of that programmatically.

The way an industrial robot is programmed in most applications you teach snippets of motion and then you rerun those snippets as a part comes into the area, I have done lots of those and they do not include vision everything is fixed. I have also done projects using cameras to guide the robots this includes parts stopped take picture, adjust for part location and run motion relative to that part. I have picked up parts on moving conveyors linearly and rotating on dials so picked them up or put them down while the target is moving all of this fairly straightforward just lots of work depending on the actual application. However most all of these static in that we want to do the same thing repeatedly for a varying part location initial or destination or both. Applications are also done to tweak a part such as check it and then bend it or tweak it so the robot acts variably to normalize.

Another thing is that robots are very repeatable, they are not super accurate. This means they do not have a linear error over their entire workspace. This has caused issues to more than a few industrial projects. They usally linkages based on arms with linear length and these links are one attached to another. This can cause very slight error but error which stacks and becomes large. Pool needs to be played with a sub mm accuracy, robots are repeatable over their works space sub mm but are not accurate. Most fanuc robots are repeatable .08mm meaning they can go to a point in space move some where else and come back to that point with that tolerance, this a small number. However if you told a robot go a point X at one extreme locaiton in its reach and then told it to go to Y a calulated position at the far end of its reach and those 2 positons are calulated to be 2 or 3 meaters away and in extremly different orientation and the tip of the robot was measured at each location the error would be much more than .08 mm. Robots are repeatable not highly accurate. This can be improved with lasters and tuning a specific robot. But robots are not super rigid and there error compounds through there linkages as opposed to a CNC with very rigid axis composed primarily of directions 90 degrees oppsosed to each other. Kinematically and mechanically a very accurate sytem. The Deep Green robot below which is a gantry, appears to be a 5 axis gantry and is great for a lab a super high end pool robot would have to be much more rigid.

Projects I have never tried to do but that have been basically impossible till recently include shaft insertion into splines and bin picking. Shaft insertion includes placing a splined shaft into a hole such as a transmission and automatically aligning the shaft with external splines into a hole with internal splines. This is not a good appliaction for vision and via good application development it has been accomplished in the last few years using force feedback modules. This is still not simple however a person can pick a shaft up direct it into a hole and wigge it a few times and push it in and viola this is accomplished, not so easy for a robot but doable.

The other application is bin picking take a big deep box and fill it with parts to the top, the parts need to be picked up and loaded into a machine, and the parts need to be picked up in a certain orientation. This is being accomplished more and more but the issue of wall interference the decision of which one to pick or which area to look in has made this a very tough nut to crack. it is being accomplished more and more. I bet this is the result of 10 million plus in development by Fanuc alone there are other robot companies and they do not share info but they do demo breakthrus, this bin picking is becoming more commmon was once impossible. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsv6TLPpf3M

These two simple tasks to teach a human have taken a ton of research to accomplish and are now possible. This has been millions of dollars and thousands and thousands of hours from multiple people using a huge range of skills to accomplish these tasks, I believe a runout robot would take that and more. It could be done and is technically feasable, But without the same sort of funding and technical development as the Deep Blue team from IBM when challenging Kasparov or the Jeapordy guys I do not see it happening. The harware along would be well north of $250,000 just for an invert mounted robot (robot upside down on a track) on a 25 foot rail would cost that much before you put on any tooling or cameras. I have done some work with invert mounted robots and the final cells are all north of $500,000 and are only doing simple functions like picking things up and putting them down, nothing complex like playing poool. I do not think we will be seeing a runout robot anytime soon meaning a robot to challenge Archer or Efren.

That being said here are some lab examples which will hopefully disprove me, still wating for a robot with an actual stroke.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AENJxqR0g48

I love these laser lines where the system draws on the table 1:25 or so
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrMrFHtT8tE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhMgQ290NB0
http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/...ot-plays-pool-throws-down-robot-pool-gauntlet

Sorry for the long winded reply.
 
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elvicash:
still wating for a robot with an actual stroke.
"A stroke" just means the ability to hit the intended spot on the cue ball from the desired angle at the desired speed. We make too much of it because it's surprisingly hard for us to do - but it's trivial in concept and trivial for a robot to do. There's nothing complicated about "a stroke".

pj
chgo
 
You know when you step onto one of those moving platforms at the airport to help you walk faster. Well, they would have a hard time making a human-like robot that could make that transitions smoothly-- it's terribly complicated.

When you need to use english on a pool table, amount of english, distance to the ob and speed would need to be accounted for. Then it would need to have a way to know how much english to apply to get shape, which there is no way to do that as tables change hour to hour. I think if NASA went all out and spent all they wanted on it the thing would be a good shotmaker, but a B+ player would give it the 8.
 
"A stroke" just means the ability to hit the intended spot on the cue ball from the desired angle at the desired speed. We make too much of it because it's surprisingly hard for us to do - but it's trivial in concept and trivial for a robot to do. There's nothing complicated about "a stroke".

pj
chgo

I know what u r saying but there is currently no robot in those snippets thast seem to vary their speed of stroke they are all pokers. I have never seen a pool playing robot or cue testing robot that actually draws the rock so I am saying no one has spent the money to make a robot stroke the ball.

Now most current linear motors accerelate very quickly but max speed is 3 meter/sec which is about 6.7 mph, I believe to do what a great player does with there stroke including forearmand wrist that speed probably needs to be 3 times faster perhaps up to 20 mph or 9 meter/sec. when that is common and someone wants to make a super robot a single axis linear servo with some other misc hardware could and would make the worlds greatest stroking cueist much better than any current pro but that sort of technology has never been applied to pool playing robot.

They have done similiar things for bowling and golf to make an actual industrial quality piece of automation.

iron Byron Golf
http://www.leaderboard.com/GLOSSARY_IRONBYRON

Earl vs Barnes -- Bowling
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8yMFdPD68c&feature=related


Both these machines canstroke the ball tons of speed and acceleration not so muc with the stroking of the cue in the applications I posted earlier. These are some very mature actuators and neither approaches the complexity of a run out 9 ball robot or a one pocket champion robot.

Back to the final application if and when u did have that technology you would still have to decide on those same three things, angle/cue path, tip pos on Q ball and speed of stroke.


You know when you step onto one of those moving platforms at the airport to help you walk faster. Well, they would have a hard time making a human-like robot that could make that transitions smoothly-- it's terribly complicated.

When you need to use english on a pool table, amount of english, distance to the ob and speed would need to be accounted for. Then it would need to have a way to know how much english to apply to get shape, which there is no way to do that as tables change hour to hour. I think if NASA went all out and spent all they wanted on it the thing would be a good shotmaker, but a B+ player would give it the 8.

I have to agree with you
 
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The problem of vision could be overcome by using a touch sensitive layer under the table cloth that indicates all center ball positions by the fact that the weight of the balls are pressing down on the bed of the table. I assume that there would be a slight error involved in locating the exact center of the ball position though, which would be enough to cause an occasional miss.

As another tid-bit, each ball could be uniquely identified by embedding an RFID tag into the balls themselves.

Fun, and interesting to think about, but would probably cost millions to actaully build and program.
 
Robots are indeed pokers and I dont think they can develop the "feel" required for certian shots. Also when you draw a bank shot out on paper and figure the exact angle to make it go, then program that into a robot you still have to a bit of trial and error on some banks to get the correct power of a shot. I dont think the robotics have evolved enough to master that.

Also I have yet to see one that can play safety's on its own or even know when to do it. I'll give it the 7 any day.
 
elvicash:
I have never seen a pool playing robot or cue testing robot that actually draws the rock so I am saying no one has spent the money to make a robot stroke the ball.
All it takes is to hit the CB x distance below center at y speed. It's probably difficult to program a robot to figure out x and y, but performing the stroke would be trivial. It could be done with a spring-loaded piston compressed the right distance.

There's nothing special about strokes - just simple speed, angle and CB contact point. Dr. Dave's testing maching could easily draw the CB - the difficult part would be drawing it a certain distance (without human judgment).

pj
chgo
 
Cdryden:
Robots are indeed pokers and I dont think they can develop the "feel" required for certian shots.
A robot (or even a "dumb" machine) can easily perform any stroke necessary for any shot. Programming it to know what stroke is necessary is the difficult part.

If robots are pokers, then we're all just pokers with better brains.

pj
chgo
 
Does any one know the difference between a robot poking at a ball, and a robot following through with it's stroke?

It seems that with humans, focusing on the follow through can sometimes help your stroke stay true and straight. In comparison to folks who "poke and pray", they may not focus on staying true and straight.
 
A robot (or even a "dumb" machine) can easily perform any stroke necessary for any shot. Programming it to know what stroke is necessary is the difficult part.

If robots are pokers, then we're all just pokers with better brains.

pj
chgo

A important part of the stroke is knowing how hard to hit whitey or rather how soft! :rolleyes:
 
"A stroke" just means the ability to hit the intended spot on the cue ball from the desired angle at the desired speed. We make too much of it because it's surprisingly hard for us to do - but it's trivial in concept and trivial for a robot to do. There's nothing complicated about "a stroke".

pj
chgo

Stroke has been misconceptualized for a long time by the majority of pool players. You'll never be able to get the human touch required to make an inanimate object replicate stroke. You have to get Jesus to breathe into it.
 
CMilian:
You'll never be able to get the human touch required to make an inanimate object replicate stroke.
I can't tell if you're serious or not, but this is nonsense. The "human touch" is knowledge and experience. The mechanics of strokes are trivial to replicate with simple machinery.

pj
chgo

P.S. I think I see now that you were being facetious. :)
 
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Does any one know the difference between a robot poking at a ball, and a robot following through with it's stroke?
There's no practical difference. Followthrough is only necessary for humans - so they don't screw up the part before the followthrough. Robots don't have this problem.

It seems that with humans, focusing on the follow through can sometimes help your stroke stay true and straight.
Right - except it's more like always.

pj
chgo
 
I can't tell if you're serious or not, but this is nonsense. The "human touch" is knowledge and experience. The mechanics of strokes are trivial to replicate with simple machinery.

pj
chgo

P.S. I think I see now that you were being facetious. :)

Oh boy what did you do this time PJ?

No, I was serious. Your understanding of stroke may be the main reason you think replicating stroke is simple. If we barely have functional moving bots, how is it possible to build something that has so many moving parts.

A stroke can be built, but not a working stroke; therefore, the idea that....well it's really complicated as is with a small brain like mine. But my small brain and body tissues are all working to perform a task foreign to every scientist on this planet. And that is just my simple stroke....a true stroke will take light years to replicate. I wouldn't show a single scientist how to play anyways...they wouldn't believe me.

Let me know if you need reading material while Bubba loves you.
 
The main issue here is simply the resolution of movement, how fine and how accurate the robot could position itself.

Coming from a way over-educated background in computer science, I can say that programming a computer to learn how to adjust for a variety of factors (angle, speed, spin, humidity, tip...) is not that difficult and there are many techniques to do that.

There are also many techniques for computer vision, and recognizing colored spheres on a green background would not be challenging.

Branching game logic exists for many games such as chess, and programming a strategy for optimized run outs certainly does not seem out of the question either.

The most interesting thing perhaps is that like humans the computer would still have to practice to be good.
 
When we were doing the Jacksonville Experiments, Iron Willie was usually not shooting shots -- it was just hitting the cue ball. One time we set up a thin cut to the side with the object ball positioned with a paper reinforcement so we could repeat the shot. Once we were dialed in on the aim, IW made the ball every time but more impressive was that the cue ball ended up very close to the same spot every time. It was much, much more consistent than any human player.

Iron Willie could be adjusted for speed, but only in coarse steps, and had no automatic aiming mechanism.

Virtual Pool already has all (or most) of the physics required to do the planning including squirt, swerve, jumps, throw, etc.

I think the hardest part of making a good robot is the vision which has to figure out the locations of at least some of the balls (and the stick) down to a small part of a millimeter.
 
The main issue here is simply the resolution of movement, how fine and how accurate the robot could position itself.

Coming from a way over-educated background in computer science, I can say that programming a computer to learn how to adjust for a variety of factors (angle, speed, spin, humidity, tip...) is not that difficult and there are many techniques to do that.

There are also many techniques for computer vision, and recognizing colored spheres on a green background would not be challenging.

Branching game logic exists for many games such as chess, and programming a strategy for optimized run outs certainly does not seem out of the question either.

The most interesting thing perhaps is that like humans the computer would still have to practice to be good.

And this is simple? I don't see how execution of moving a sphere from point A to B with a cue by use of a human body can be replicated with incorrect, insufficient data...by an inanimate object.
 
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