Big table, regular cue ball (we played with Red or Blue Circle cue balls back then).
Could SVB be the G.O.A.T. ???
- Thread starter Maniac
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Big table, regular cue ball (we played with Red or Blue Circle cue balls back then).
Shane's overall Mosconi Cup record is certainly way below what most of us would have expected. And in the past 2 years he was on the winning side in just 1 of the 11 matches in which he participated. But let's take a look at "The Van Boening Era" of the Mosconi Cup.
For the 11 years (2007-2017) Shane has played in the Cup, his singles record is 11-16, a winning percentage of 41%. In those 11 years, he has played with 15 different teammates. The combined singles record for those 15 players in those 11 years is 22-48, a winning percentage of 31%.
Shane's doubles record is 11-17 (winning percentage 39%). Team USA's doubles record over those 11 years excluding Shane's doubles matches is 21-29 (42%).
So Shane has done better than his teammates in singles and slightly worse in doubles.
If we count a full point for a win or loss in singles matches, half a point for a win or loss in doubles matches, and one-fifth of a point for a win or loss in the teams matches, we have a measure of the overall contribution of a player to the match scores:
- Team USA matches won and lost 2007-2017 -- 69-117 (37% winning percentage)
Shane's contribution -- 17.3-25.9 (40%)
Team USA other than Shane -- 51.7-91.1 (36%)
[And don't forget that Archer, Strickland, and Morris are 3 of the 15 guys who have played on teams with Van Boening -- Archer 7 times, Strickland 3 times, and Morris 6 times.]
The Mosconi Cup is a carnival.
It shouldn't even be counted in any calculations in determining who is the GOAT.
It shouldn't even be counted in any calculations in determining who is the GOAT.
:grin::grin:
I don't think I misunderstood you at all. While I'd gladly crawl naked through a football field of cactus to wake up tommorrow morning and be able to play 9 and 10 ball at the names you've mentioned levels, they are mostly one trick ponies when it comes to desiplens in pocket billiards. Sure they have a pure stroke, have mastered the template break, and can send whitey two and three rails with the best of them. Hell, some of the names you mentioned have barely hit puberty. This is a thread about Shane and possible G.O.A.T.s. I'd love to see how they match up on in an overall pool IQ test with the likes of Worst, Eddie Taylor, Joyner, Bugs, Efren, Frost, JJ, Busti, Parica, Hall of old and Hall of new, Elliot, Varner, Mizerak, and the list could go on and on. I mean we're talking about the greatest minds to ever play the game. What the hell does Poland and thier 750 ratings know about bank pool anyways...:grin:
I don't think I misunderstood you at all. While I'd gladly crawl naked through a football field of cactus to wake up tommorrow morning and be able to play 9 and 10 ball at the names you've mentioned levels, they are mostly one trick ponies when it comes to desiplens in pocket billiards. Sure they have a pure stroke, have mastered the template break, and can send whitey two and three rails with the best of them. Hell, some of the names you mentioned have barely hit puberty. This is a thread about Shane and possible G.O.A.T.s. I'd love to see how they match up on in an overall pool IQ test with the likes of Worst, Eddie Taylor, Joyner, Bugs, Efren, Frost, JJ, Busti, Parica, Hall of old and Hall of new, Elliot, Varner, Mizerak, and the list could go on and on. I mean we're talking about the greatest minds to ever play the game. What the hell does Poland and thier 750 ratings know about bank pool anyways...:grin:
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Mike, you do know that many of the Track & Field records in the events you've listed were set twenty and even thirty years ago. So much for the theory that today's athletes are that much better. :wink:
As the acknowledged best player on many of those teams, he should have led by example, and I wouldn't exactly call a 22-33 record much in the way of leadership. What I witnessed was that his lackluster performance affected every other player on the team. When they saw him crumble they also lost confidence in themselves. He was supposed to be their indestructible champion. The man who would lead them to victory. He has failed in that role time and time again, and he would probably be the first to admit it.
Don't get me wrong. There have been some very good golfers who did not fare so well in the Ryder Cup and yet were elected to the golf HOF. But the great ones like Jack Nicklaus and Arnold Palmer came up big when representing their country. Tiger has done okay but not great. Likewise, Shane will be a first ballot pick for the billiards HOF I'm certain. As well he should be.
I think that when you adjust for all of the differences in technology, training methodology, conditions, diet, etc., yesterday's champions are more comparable to today's champions than most people realize, even in the objectively measured sports.
Don't forget the juice. Yesterday's athletes could use PE drugs with great abandon.
Attachments
Knowledge is irrelevant when you don't get to the table.
Fact is the guys today shoot wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy straighter than the guys of the past.
So, today's chemical (pharmaceutical) industry is not supplying athletes? And there is 2 parts to that:
1) the legal methods. They know a lot more about nutrition, training under special circumstances, WAY better equipment and so on.
2) I bet you any amount of $$$ that there is a lot more illegal doping going on today. They just refined the methods so the stuff can't be detected quite as easily. The next major scandal is just around the corner.
WRT pool players of old vs. the guys nowadays - pretty much the same applies. Not in the doping or nutrition department. The equipment is very different though. Slow felt, no LD shafts, no hi-tech ferrules and tips and so on. OK, they mostly had bigger pockets. Add it all together and it evens out. I believe strongly that the pool players and athletes of yesteryear had a very comparable set of challenges. If a time tunnel were possible it would be totally unfair to make Cranfield play Shane with today's equipment only. A fair match would be both playing on today's and the old equipment equally. Plus also matching the old games played then with their set of rules, triangles and all equally.
Only that would be a fair comparison.
I also believe that a not too small part of being the GOAT should be how a player behaved throughout his career. If you take that into account Efren is still light years ahead of most of the younger generation of players. Other people also mentioned his magical shots during tournaments. This is what made him stand out. He was just so much more fun to watch in his prime than many of others who could string x racks together.
Just my 2 cents.
Good point. Thank goodness today's champions are all clean.
Imagine how much slower would Jesse Owens have been without PED's.
It's well known fact that doping in the past was bordering on crazy. Doping today is lets say more "subtle". Baseball is a good example.
True. I believe this because there are some sports (football and basketball being to two most prominent) where the players of today are obviously better because of the changes the players have made over the years in the physical aspects of their bodies. You cannot deny that today's football lineman can run a 40-yard dash as fast as the running backs of the 40's and 50's did and the size of running backs/receivers today were the size of many lineman of the past eras. In basketball, you have many guards that were the size of the centers on teams from the same eras. I just do not think it possible that a football or basketball team of the past could stand up to the teams of today.
Pool does not necessarily depend on physical attributes for a player to be successful at it. Not all athletes ply their living by physically grinding people into submission. With the interest in pocket billiards rapidly increasing internationally over the past 10-15 years, I just feel like there is a larger number of elite pool players for all the players of today to have to overcome.
Maniac
I haven't thought so much about team ball sport activities. We were talking about Joe Lewis and some track and field like Jesse Owens before. I don't see a huge difference in the doping department there. Sure, some stuff that was legal back then isn't nowadays. But the methods were not really refined in Owen's time. Maybe there was a prime in the Soviet Union times when so many athletes were illegally doping that it really stood out - women looking like some kind of Big Foot with a mustache 
There have been different "doping eras" but anybody who thinks those are something of a dark past is just trying to believe the same BS people tried to believe back then. (Oh well, they always suspected the Eastern bloc countries but the Western athletes caught doping were not insignifant in any way either - it is a very long list).
I'd like to see every athlete light up bright red who is currently using illegal stuff. I bet you that the Tour de France for a start would be all red, at least the 20-30 top ones. Track and field would not fare much better, IMHO.
There have been different "doping eras" but anybody who thinks those are something of a dark past is just trying to believe the same BS people tried to believe back then. (Oh well, they always suspected the Eastern bloc countries but the Western athletes caught doping were not insignifant in any way either - it is a very long list).
I'd like to see every athlete light up bright red who is currently using illegal stuff. I bet you that the Tour de France for a start would be all red, at least the 20-30 top ones.
Track and field would not fare much better, IMHO.
I'd like to see every athlete light up bright red who is currently using illegal stuff. I bet you that the Tour de France for a start would be all red, at least the 20-30 top ones.
They are still suspending a fair share of football and baseball players too these days. You just don't see it in the news as much, unless of course it's a high-profile player.
Maniac
Crossing eras is so tough....but a lot of fun...:smile:
I think it should also be noted that today’s players have the benefit of the pioneers...
...they are great on the shoulders of giants.
Ronnie Allen....in his 50s, sitting in the stands.....
“See the shot that kid played?...took me ten years to learn it.”
pt....still thinks Ted Williams was the GOAT
If you go back to SVB's first seven years on the team, 2007 - 2013, he was 9-9 and 8-8 total. Not carrying the team but at least pulling his weight. Better overall then the rest. It's the last four years that have been terrible for him and the team.
Correct. In the last 4 years, Shane is 2-7 in singles and 3-9 in doubles (including 0-6 in doubles the last 2 years).
he could be
personally I think circumstances within the pool world at the time allowed Earl and Efren to greater display their dominance, Sigel too and Mizerak
Shane is an overall kicker of all ass....much like Parica, perhaps victims of circumstance
I don't think Shane can lay claim to that tile, and given the high levels of competition nowadays, I don't think he has what's left of his prime to get there
for my money, Earl hit the the highest gears ever and Efren was a smidge below but for a longer period of time
those two are the only living guys out there with a legit claim for best ever
personally I think circumstances within the pool world at the time allowed Earl and Efren to greater display their dominance, Sigel too and Mizerak
Shane is an overall kicker of all ass....much like Parica, perhaps victims of circumstance
I don't think Shane can lay claim to that tile, and given the high levels of competition nowadays, I don't think he has what's left of his prime to get there
for my money, Earl hit the the highest gears ever and Efren was a smidge below but for a longer period of time
those two are the only living guys out there with a legit claim for best ever