Craziest rack in a while...what would you do?

I'm gonna bank the 6 one rail off the 15 and put it by the other head pocket.
If it lays such that I can also bump freeze the twelve to the long rail that works, but the bank carom is priority.
 
How can the guy play any ball he wants, Play the six , screw the three for broke, follow the three with cb for game winner... Was that so hard... Guy
 
This is why I get frustrated with 8-ball. Sometimes the layouts can be brutal and it's tough to find any reasonable way to advance. At least in rotation the layout is equally as challenging for both players.

These type of situations really slow down tournaments too.
 
It looks like you can kick the 3 away from the 8 in that position, but I don't like your chances regardless of where the 3 goes. Bank the 13 into the 14 to get them away from that end of the table?
I'm such a dog here I kick the 3 away and try to get the cue ball down table past the 10 somewhere. The 12 is still covered up by the 8 and 6 at this point and as long as you don't give up ball in hand there's some work to be done for stripes. At least your opponent has to move a ball to get out and things can go bad. Especially with the pressure of hill hill.

As shown by the outcome once the ball in hand started solids were doomed.
 
It looks like you can kick the 3 away from the 8 in that position, but I don't like your chances regardless of where the 3 goes. Bank the 13 into the 14 to get them away from that end of the table?
That would be one of my two options although giving up BIH with functionally one ball to his 5 doesn't seem like good odds.
 
View attachment 718413
Hill-Hill at a tourney this weekend:

The 8 ended up in the jaws off the break, and because APA I had to take what I made (solid). I had no balls at the head of the table after the break to try and get the 8 ball out of the pocket, and unluckily for me, after my opponents first shot, he gets really lucky and my 3 ball ends up frozen to the 8 ball...now I am really screwed.

Twice I tried bunting balls toward the head rail, in hopes of setting up a shot into the corner to get the 8-3 out. Each time his dang 13 hooked me from doing that. (anything above the 13 likely doesn't go and/or knocks the 8 in).

His 13 could have bumped the 8 out as he pocketed it. He missed a few shots, I made a few while trying to lock him up for a BIH, but he made some good kicks and I couldn't get him locked up. Anyway, the table ends up like the above picture. with my shot. WWYD?
Once you got this point, you were pretty much lost. Your post seems to indicate you shot at least twice after the 3 ball got froze on the 8. If you pocketed any solids during those two innings, that is the entire reason you lost this game. Not because he kicked well.

When a ball ends up this bad and you still have a few balls on the table, you have to stop, take a breath, and really analyze what the core problem is for both of you, and think about what each player should be doing to solve the problem. Then, you do everything in your power to sabotage your opponent's plan. (Or what your opponent's plan SHOULD be..) Note: Nowhere in that synopsis did you see the words "try to run all the way out".

In the earlier parts of this rack, your opponent's problem is to break out the 8. As soon as that becomes his problem, your entire job is to remove any balls he might use to break out that 8, EVEN if that requires shooting his ball in, and taking a foul. If your opponent has no balls in the area to break out the 8, then you can't lose "yet". In that circumstance, every ball he pockets is one step closer to either them losing, or you forcing the rerack.

Now, as far as the technical problem of YOU getting the 3 ball out.. Pretty much the ONLY reliable way to do this is with ball in hand, which, every ball you pocket after the 3 got tied up, lessens the chances of you getting ball jn hand, because you have fewer and fewer balls to hide him behind. lessens the chance of you actually getting ball in hand.. I would not even try breaking the three out with any other ball. That's suicide.

The idea that you immediately jump to the idea of "trying to move balls up table to have something to break out the 3", is completely the wrong thinking. First, to reliably break out the 3 that way, you'd have to be shooting a shot that follows a VERY specific tangent line, and even if you DO manage to fall on that tangent line, you have a good chance of double kissing it and leaving it close to the 8, unmakeable, but breaking out the 8 for your opponent.

To summarize, earlier in the rack, after the 3/8 got tied up, you had two basic options to either win, or force a rerack. Both require you to STOP POCKETING YOUR BALLS.

Winning -
1. Remove your opponent's balls from the area of the 8 to stop any possibility of them getting lucky on the breakout, then if you manage to do that, you NOW have to get ball in hand, THEN you place the cue ball behind the 3 and shoot it very softly into the rail, so it bounces out and blocks your opponent from seeing any of their balls. And you need to try to freeze the cue ball to the 3 when it bounces back out. Thsn, if you get ball in hand again, you squeeze the cue ball in between the 3 and 8, and start nudging the ball down the rail until you get a makeable shot. All in all, trying to win here would probably require you to get ball in hand multiple times in a row.

2. OR... As soon as your opponent tied the 3 up, you now switch your goal from winning, to getting a solid wedged in between the rail and the 3 on the left side of the pocket, making any attempt to break it out MUCH more difficult. Then, you just stop making balls. If your opponent figures out your plan and intentionally fouls to try to nudge one of the balls out, then you use your ball in hand to nudge them back together.
 
If I'm the opponent there's no way I agree to a ReRack.

I win 98% of the time. All I have to do is set myself up so that I can move his three ball just a bit so that I can get to the eight, but not so much that he has a shot even if I give him ball in hand doing so.
I agree with most of your points, but keep in mind, if you give up ball in hand whilst nudging the 3 out just slightly, your opponent can just nudge it back onto the 8 with ball in hand, OR, dependent on how far you move the 3, he can do a straight rail billiards type "rail nurse", where he nudges the 3 slowly down the rail, until he gets a shot, and you are hooked on every ball every time, assuming he did the correct thing and removed any of your balls at that end of the table.
 
APA? What level are you and what level is opponent should have been 1st. question asked.
6 v. 5 (him)
Once you got this point, you were pretty much lost. Your post seems to indicate you shot at least twice after the 3 ball got froze on the 8. If you pocketed any solids during those two innings, that is the entire reason you lost this game. Not because he kicked well.
I didn't pocket any balls, but tried a couple times getting a ball down around where the 13 was...it was a very tight window where you could pocket a ball while bumping the 8-3 out. I couldn't get to the right spot...the 13 kept hooking me.
When a ball ends up this bad and you still have a few balls on the table, you have to stop, take a breath, and really analyze what the core problem is for both of you, and think about what each player should be doing to solve the problem. Then, you do everything in your power to sabotage your opponent's plan. (Or what your opponent's plan SHOULD be..) Note: Nowhere in that synopsis did you see the words "try to run all the way out".
Thanks for the very good insight. I definitely did not do this. I immediately went to "Holy Crap! What the hell do I do now?"
In the earlier parts of this rack, your opponent's problem is to break out the 8. As soon as that becomes his problem, your entire job is to remove any balls he might use to break out that 8, EVEN if that requires shooting his ball in, and taking a foul. If your opponent has no balls in the area to break out the 8, then you can't lose "yet". In that circumstance, every ball he pockets is one step closer to either them losing, or you forcing the rerack.
That was what happened once the table got to the setup in the original diagram...I kicked his 13 to the other end and basically kept trying to buy myself one more inning.
Now, as far as the technical problem of YOU getting the 3 ball out.. Pretty much the ONLY reliable way to do this is with ball in hand, which, every ball you pocket after the 3 got tied up, lessens the chances of you getting ball jn hand, because you have fewer and fewer balls to hide him behind. lessens the chance of you actually getting ball in hand.. I would not even try breaking the three out with any other ball. That's suicide.

The idea that you immediately jump to the idea of "trying to move balls up table to have something to break out the 3", is completely the wrong thinking. First, to reliably break out the 3 that way, you'd have to be shooting a shot that follows a VERY specific tangent line, and even if you DO manage to fall on that tangent line, you have a good chance of double kissing it and leaving it close to the 8, unmakeable, but breaking out the 8 for your opponent.

To summarize, earlier in the rack, after the 3/8 got tied up, you had two basic options to either win, or force a rerack. Both require you to STOP POCKETING YOUR BALLS.

Winning -
1. Remove your opponent's balls from the area of the 8 to stop any possibility of them getting lucky on the breakout, then if you manage to do that, you NOW have to get ball in hand, THEN you place the cue ball behind the 3 and shoot it very softly into the rail, so it bounces out and blocks your opponent from seeing any of their balls. And you need to try to freeze the cue ball to the 3 when it bounces back out. Thsn, if you get ball in hand again, you squeeze the cue ball in between the 3 and 8, and start nudging the ball down the rail until you get a makeable shot. All in all, trying to win here would probably require you to get ball in hand multiple times in a row.

2. OR... As soon as your opponent tied the 3 up, you now switch your goal from winning, to getting a solid wedged in between the rail and the 3 on the left side of the pocket, making any attempt to break it out MUCH more difficult. Then, you just stop making balls. If your opponent figures out your plan and intentionally fouls to try to nudge one of the balls out, then you use your ball in hand to nudge them back together.
Thanks again for taking the time to give this detail and thought process...very appreciated. I am not at the level where I am seeing ALL these angles/options.
Three foul rule in effect?
Not in APA...
 
from a somewhat inexperienced viewpoint...

how about carom off the 6 and try to stick the CB to the 12, between the 12 and the rail. If successful maybe the 12 couldn't be shot at directly or it would be a push shot, and others all blocked.


I think the trick is to try to make the opponent fail on his next shot.
you could hit the 3 out of there without touching the black and hope for the best, maybe aim to leave the CB stuck to the rail at the bottom of the table, or wherever its going.

I dont understand the re-rack or why the game wouldn't be expected to finish, obviously from other comments there is some rule there that I don't quite get.
 
from a somewhat inexperienced viewpoint...

how about carom off the 6 and try to stick the CB to the 12, between the 12 and the rail. If successful maybe the 12 couldn't be shot at directly or it would be a push shot, and others all blocked.


I think the trick is to try to make the opponent fail on his next shot.
you could hit the 3 out of there without touching the black and hope for the best, maybe aim to leave the CB stuck to the rail at the bottom of the table, or wherever its going.

I dont understand the re-rack or why the game wouldn't be expected to finish, obviously from other comments there is some rule there that I don't quite get.
In APA if both players declare they will not try to win i.e. continue shooting safety shots or just giving each other BIH over and over, with no end in sight, it is a stalemate and you re-rack and try again.
 
In APA if both players declare they will not try to win i.e. continue shooting safety shots or just giving each other BIH over and over, with no end in sight, it is a stalemate and you re-rack and try again.
interesting, thanks, In this case there is an obvious advantage for stripes so no advantage to calling a stalemate. the 3 can be involved in a pretty easy combo , I thought if the 3 could follow in by accident perhaps, it could by chance, cause low ball to win.
 
It looks like you can kick the 3 away from the 8 in that position, but I don't like your chances regardless of where the 3 goes. Bank the 13 into the 14 to get them away from that end of the table?
That's what I was thinking. Foul on purpose by knocking your opponent's 13 ball to the long rail between the 8ball and the side pocket. Then when you have a chance to kick the 3 away from the 8 you may not sell out. But this needs to be done as soon as possible, not after pocketing a few of your balls, but while you still have a few balls remaining.

When these situations come up early in the game, it's best to not pocket any of your balls. In fact, pocket your opponent's balls and taking the fouls can be a great strategy, especially if you have 5 or 6 of your own balls out there. You don't want to be left with nothing but the 3 and 8, not if you're solids.
 
The good news about this is that it is very tough for your opponent to break out the 3-8 successfully and secure a runout from any position. So I would try to make things messy for my opponent until you had the opportunity to kick out the 3 without selling out a shot or easy safe. A smart opponent is going to get your 6 out of the way as a priority, but you can only leverage what is in your control.
 
The good news about this is that it is very tough for your opponent to break out the 3-8 successfully and secure a runout from any position. So I would try to make things messy for my opponent until you had the opportunity to kick out the 3 without selling out a shot or easy safe. A smart opponent is going to get your 6 out of the way as a priority, but you can only leverage what is in your control.
The only problem with kicking out the 3, and the diagram doesn't show it as well, but the cue ball would not fit between the rail and the 3, or if it did it was by a microscopic amount. I was afraid any attempt would send the 3 to nudge the 8 and I lose.
 
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