Crying Foul with No Witness!

[Walt in VA]

Walt, did you read the section in your manual? ....
As you can see by definition a double hit foul is a form of Push Shot. If you still see some ambiguities, then there probably won't be much else I can do to clarify it any further. Feel free to pursue the matter through other avenues (friends, league players, league operator, or through national representatives).

FLICKit, I'm fully familiar with the APA rule manual, and the statement that "push shots will not be called in this Amateur league." I am also familiar with the fact that, at least in our territory, APA referees are trained and qualified to watch for double hit fouls, and they will call it if it occurs.

Please do not try to "clarify it any further." If you still feel that an APA referee can't/won't call a double hit foul because it is a "push shot" and allowed, please feel free to pursue the matter through any of the other avenues you mentioned, or a certified referee or Referee Instructor.

Walt in VA

 

[Terry Erdman]

Isn't this kind of like stealing a pack of cigarettes from a grocery store and saying "well they weren't looking, so it's ok"?

An honest question.
I wouldn't even consider it a win-if I won like that.
~DC

And we all saw Earl Strickland do this on TV and say, "the ref couldn't see it", when he shot a ball and moved a near by ball with his cue (all ball fouls) that was obvious to everyone but the ref behind Strickland. Everybody has an opinion on things like this but I like to think most of us would call an obvious foul on ourselves, even if nobody is looking. Big difference between sportmanship and rules! Big difference between Efren and Earl.

 

[FLICKit]

FLICKit, I'm fully familiar with the APA rule manual, and the statement that "push shots will not be called in this Amateur league." I am also familiar with the fact that, at least in our territory, APA referees are trained and qualified to watch for double hit fouls, and they will call it if it occurs.
Walt in VA

Better to demonstrate your familiarity with the manual by using actual quotes and references to the sections that you are referring to, in order to ensure clarification for all. Otherwise anyone can be talking out of their A$$. Often times that's why so many people are not firmly grounded in the rules, because they get their information through hearsay, rather than actual references.

You may be thinking in regards to FOULS on page 48 (of course you may not be, since you never cross-linked to a reference). See bolded section (p. 49).

FOULS - ... Even after having addressed the cue ball a
player may, if not satisfied with the placement, make further adjustments
with his hand, cue stick or any other reasonable piece of
equipment. A foul may be called only if the player fouls the cue
ball while actually stroking the cue ball, meaning a double hit of
the cue ball (sometimes called double clutching). The ball-inhand
rule penalizes a player for an error. Without this rule, a
person can actually benefit by accidentally or purposely scratching
or otherwise fouling...
b. Failure to hit a correct ball first. (A player who is shooting
stripes must hit a striped ball first.) The 8-ball is not neutral.
In general, the shooter has the advantage in close hit situations
unless his opponent has asked an outside party to watch the
hit. Protect yourself. If you think your opponent is getting
ready to shoot a shot that could possibly be a bad hit, stop him
from shooting and get someone to watch the shot. Potential
bad hit situations are usually fairly obvious and protests and
disputes over these close situations can almost always be
avoided if someone is asked to watch the shot. If the outside
party cannot determine which ball was struck first, the call
goes to the shooter. Teams involved in repeatedly calling bad
hits without outside party verification may be subject to penalty
points for disruptive unsportsmanlike behavior...
g. Causing even the slightest movement or altering the course of
the cue ball, even accidentally, is a foul. Even dropping the
chalk on the cue ball is a foul. It is not a foul, however, to accidentally
move any other balls (including the 8-ball) unless,
during his turn at the table, a player moves a ball and it in turn
comes in contact with the cue ball. Any balls moved accidentally
during a shot must be replaced by the opponent after the
shot is over and all balls have stopped rolling. If it occurs before
the shot, it must be replaced before the shot is taken.
8-Ball Game Rules
51
EXCEPTION: If an accidentally moved ball comes in contact
with the cue ball, creating a foul, no object ball will be replaced.
h. If, during the course of a shot, the cue ball does not touch
anything.
i. Exercise caution when picking up or placing the cue ball in a
ball-in-hand situation. The cue ball is always alive. If the
cue ball, or the hand holding or moving it, touches another
ball it is a cue ball foul and your opponent has ball-in-hand.
Be especially careful when you are picking up or placing the
cue ball in a tight spot...



Note, that the original question from semper fi was in reference to balls that were close together (within about 1/4" apart). Balls very close together would fall within the rules for the Push Shot as previously posted.

Also note that the original topic that we were responding to was in reference to the APA rules as a whole. Not the APA rules in your territory. Every territory may have it's own set of bylaws to govern how it functions. But the APA national rules are standard and consistent.

APA referees are not standard for normal league play throughout the nation. This raised some questions that would be interesting... What kind of APA referees do you have in your area? Where did they get trained and certified? Do you have at least 1 referee in every division in your area? Do they play on some other teams in that division, or do they just come out solely to referee? Is it a paid position, or are they compensated in some way, if so how? Do they all referee at the national APA events as well?