Crying Foul with No Witness!

Good response Bob.

I've seem many occasions where a foul was committed but that possibility wasn't obvious before the shot. Therefore no referee called over.

I was playing in the BCA tournament in Vegas. Opponent was shooting a delicate shot to cut a ball into the side pocket. There was no question on the push.....it wasn't going to be one. But the object ball didn't make it to the pocket and it didn't hit the rail. Neither did the cue ball. I called a foul. He said it hit the rail. A little discussion started until his teammates finally stepped in and said it didn't hit the rail.

As a tournament director, I've recreated the shot on another table. Have had some success.

I've also videoed a shot as I was called over to make a good hit/bad hit call.

But, with no ref it gets testy sometimes.
 
Bob Jewett said:
This is the part that's problematic. The shooter must have known that the shot he was about to shoot might lead to controversy. If he wants to be a cheating bully, he can just shoot it quickly and and claim "shooter's privelege" as to the call. If he wants to play fairly and without argument, he should begin by asking his opponent how he plays the shot. There are lots of players who say it is OK to shoot through a near-by ball no matter how many times the cue ball is struck, and no matter what the applicable rules say. After that, the shooter may want to ask a neutral party to come over.
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In the above-referenced incident, I eyewitnessed the whole saga. The shot didn't look like it was going to be a questionable one (IMO). However, if it did look so to the opponent, it may have been prudent for him to remove himself from his seat and get right on top of it, to alert the shooting player that he's watching it closely. At that time, a neutral party could or should have been be called in.

Bob Jewett said:
I don't much care for the "shooter is right in all disputes" "rule".
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Neither do I.

Bob Jewett said:
One way to make the call after the fact is to get some balls on a different table, set them up in a position both players agree is correct, and have the (alleged) fouler shoot the shot again to achieve about the same result as the first shot. A neutral player can judge the reenactment if both players can agree that it was like the original.
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Sounds like the best move (no pun intended).

JAM
 
vapoolplayer said:
i think she meant that the person who fouled won the set, i'm not sure.
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Read again slick :cool:




JAM said:
too! :)

.

Thus, the alleged foul player conceded and did spot a ball to get the game going. He ended up winning the set on his next turn at the table.

JAM
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A lot of discrepancies don’t ever really get sorted out for this reason. A few years ago at the local pool hall two guys were playing golf. They played all the time and had the classical symbiotic relationship. One player (A) needed the action the other player (B) needed the money. Player A goes to the restroom and player B blatantly moves player A’s object ball to the rail making his shot very difficult. When player A returns and notices his ball moved he confronts B with what is going on, as this is not the first time such a thing has taken place. An argument ensues, A accusing B of cheating and B denying the obvious. The game ends when A quits swearing never to play that cheating %$#@# B again. After paying his time A is telling someone watching what happened and the person who saw the whole thing let A know what he thought happened did in fact happen. B is a big fat cheater. A couple of days later all is forgotten A and B are playing 20/2 golf again. B needs the money, A needs the action. B continues to cheat.
 
It's up to the non-shooting player to relize that shooting a ball from 1/8th of an inch away has a good chance of being a foul and therefore saying "Hold it, I am getting a ref to watch this shot!" rather then sitting 30 feet away to call the foul.

You would be surprised how many times I have watched players about to shoot shots like this and I tell them I am getting a ref and they suddenly decide to shoot a VERY different shot. I have even had players argue with me pre-shot that the foul is not possible, then they shoot it and the ref calls a foul and they are shocked. This is all in Vegas at the BCA and VNEA and the like, it is amazing what some people dont know and what others will try to get away with. Always get a impartial player who knows the rules to watch a shot if it looks like it may be a foul because if you dont the official stance is it goes to the shooter and in this case even if it was a foul how are you to make your case with what you saw from 30 feet away?
 
We also play a couple of 45-degree rules when CB and OB are within a chalk-cube distance. If you shoot into the ball and have your cue elevated at least 45 degrees, no push foul can be called. Also, if you shoot at least 45 degrees of cut on the close ball, again no foul can be called. Don't know how common this approach is, but would be interested to hear if any other halls have similar rules (hey, I don't get out much :) ).

Dave[/QUOTE]


While playing in an APA league this week, I was asked to watch a hit. After making the call, a double hit, I was told by the shooter's coach that his player had the cue elevated at 45 degrees, and therefore the hit was good. I told him I knew nothing of this concept, but pointed out that I based my call on the fact that the cb followed the ob down table which could only happen with a double hit. I should also point out that while the shooter was jacked-up, he was still aiming at the center of the cb, and the balls were only about 1/4" apart. The coach didn't really argue much, but I know he thinks I made a bad call.

Mike
 
Ok, have seen this happen several times where guys have a close shot on the OB and another ball, and either dont ask for a ref or rely on the other persons opinion.

Now i myself, if the shooter doesnt ask for a ref and i watch the shot, i normally ask the shooter if he thought it was a bad shot and go on his opinion even though i am standing only a couple feet from the table watching the shot. Most honest people call foul on thier own. I have several times even when the person isnt looking, if the person asks when comming back to the table.

But i have on a couple instances if a person was looking away and didnt see the shot and doesnt ask, i wont say anything. Because its thier fault for not asking.


dave
 
Inabilty to duplicate ....

Bob Jewett said:
One way to make the call after the fact is to get some balls on a different table set them up in a position both players agree is correct, and have the (alleged) fouler shoot the shot again to achieve about the same result as the first shot. A neutral player can judge the reenactment if both players can agree that it was like the original.
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HI,
What if all the tables are occupied!!!!!
Lack of consistency(inabilty to duplicate) does not mean he is guilty.
Vagabond
 
vagabond said:
HI,
What if all the tables are occupied!!!!!
Lack of consistency(inabilty to duplicate) does not mean he is guilty.
Vagabond
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What if a meteorite strikes the fouler before you can replay the shot? You'll never know how much to pay to his survivors!

I pointed out that both players would have to agree that the shot was shot in the same way. If there is no such agreement, a decision based on whatever is shot hardly pertains to the shot. I hope it's obvious that my solution cannot be applied in all situations, especially if one of players is an obnoxious so-and-so. If the two players are rational and of good will, you might be able to resolve the question, and the players might even learn something about the rules.

Even world champions are often ignorant of the rules. Sad but true.
 
Missing the point

vapoolplayer said:
she says he conceded the ball, then won at his next turn at the table...........still sounds like the guy that fouled won.

thanks

VAP
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He did, but I think you are missing the point. The "fouler" actually never fouled. The guy that called the "foul" was just trying to make a "move". He was losing and fixing to lose the set and called a "foul" to try and turn the match in his favor.

The "fouler" got tired of the shit-talking and went ahead and spotted a ball just to get the match going again.......... and on his next shot the "fouler" won the game, set and match............ My point is that it did not matter that the "fouler" spotted a ball even though he did not foul, he still won.......
hence the "cheater's proof" :D

Please correct me if I am wrong JAM....thanks ;)
 
When there is some question about a shot and a ref was not there to make the call the call goes to the biggest guy! :D
Exception- When the smaller guy has a bigger stick and Elephant balls!! :eek:
 
Late to this discussion

I am amazed, again, by the willingness of cheaters of various kinds to be honest about their dishonesty when discussing cheating on an internet forum. I don't need to name names.

I have encountered the "45 degree rule" often. Usually the person claiming that his shot was not a foul because he was jacked up 45 degrees was actually jacked up about 20 degrees. 45 degrees of elevation is a LOT of elevation. Try it. I don't think I've ever actually entered an argument about whether that really was 45 degrees, but I have been tempted. Have Y'all seen this?

As far as a ruling in the situation JAM described, the only thing I can add to the gathered experience here is what players and railbirds everywhere know already. When folks are gambling these calls must be negotiated between the players (and backers when appropriate). No-one else is involved and no-one else has any real say. This doesn't, of course, always lead to fair outcomes. It also doesn't prevent others from trying to interfere. Nevertheless, that's how it is.
 
longhair said:
I have encountered the "45 degree rule" often. Usually the person claiming that his shot was not a foul because he was jacked up 45 degrees was actually jacked up about 20 degrees. 45 degrees of elevation is a LOT of elevation. Try it. I don't think I've ever actually entered an argument about whether that really was 45 degrees, but I have been tempted. Have Y'all seen this?
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I have not only saw it, but probably been guilty of it. I don`t think most people pay much attention to the shot as long as the shooter is jacked up shooting down through the cue ball with a very low hit.


In Jam`s story, I agree with other posters that the foul caller was probably just making a last ditch effort to stay in the game, by sharking the shooter.
 
sizl said:
He did, but I think you are missing the point. The "fouler" actually never fouled. The guy that called the "foul" was just trying to make a "move". He was losing and fixing to lose the set and called a "foul" to try and turn the match in his favor.

The "fouler" got tired of the shit-talking and went ahead and spotted a ball just to get the match going again.......... and on his next shot the "fouler" won the game, set and match............ My point is that it did not matter that the "fouler" spotted a ball even though he did not foul, he still won.......
hence the "cheater's proof" :D

Please correct me if I am wrong JAM....thanks ;)
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That's exactly what happened. When the foul crier wouldn't budge from his seat, the opponent just gave in, spotted the ball, to get the game going, as he only needed one ball for the win and the foul crier needed five or six.

Whether it was an actual foul or a move, I guess nobody will ever really know. :D ;)

JAM
 
Bob Jewett said:
What if a meteorite strikes the fouler before you can replay the shot? You'll never know how much to pay to his survivors!

Even world champions are often ignorant of the rules. Sad but true.
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Howdy,
I am glad that u mentioned about catastrophies.I always wanted the framers of laws/rules for pool/Billiards define every thing.Here is my hypothetical Question:It is the finals of a Pro Tour event.There is only one table.All the other tables are already removed from the arena(Like in WPBA events).A player masse`s a shot and as a result there is a big tear in the cloth.The opponent does not want to play on that table.what do u do?
I do not think we have rules covering that scenario.
The response one can anticipate from the rule makers will be-``don`t be silly.Proplayers know how to Masse` and they do not tear the cloth like u do``.
But they do not address the issue.

The rules should address some of these issues that could really happen.

Vagabond
 
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Bob Jewett said:
What if a meteorite strikes the fouler before you can replay the shot? You'll never know how much to pay to his survivors!

I pointed out that both players would have to agree that the shot was shot in the same way. If there is no such agreement, a decision based on whatever is shot hardly pertains to the shot. I hope it's obvious that my solution cannot be applied in all situations, especially if one of players is an obnoxious so-and-so. If the two players are rational and of good will, you might be able to resolve the question, and the players might even learn something about the rules.

Even world champions are often ignorant of the rules. Sad but true.
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Having recently gotten a camera phone I must ask, why not take a picture of the shot BEFORE shooting it and then setting it up again would be easier? And a lot of you probably have those little cheap video cameras that could capture the whole thing. I'm half tempted to bring one to league nights with me. If playing for big $$$, maybe the hall could provide one?---a little added value, so to speak.

Our league has the 45 degree rule, which actually allows fouls IF your cue is 45 degrees up or over from a full hit. Yet at the state tournament, a referee is available to watch, but why, if the setup rule is the standard?

Two years ago at the state tourney, my opponent called a ref to watch my close hit. I jacked up 45 degrees as per the rule and he called a foul on me and my opponent ran out with ball in hand. The "ref" said he knew I didn't know what I was doing by how I aligned the shot. (I guess he's never heard of combining directional and side throw..:( ) The next year, I asked the head ref about this call and he said the other ref made the wrong call and I should not have been fouled. Too late and too bad as it put our team out of the tourney.

Oh well.

Jeff Livingston
 
chefjeff said:
Having recently gotten a camera phone I must ask, why not take a picture of the shot BEFORE shooting it and then setting it up again would be easier? And a lot of you probably have those little cheap video cameras that could capture the whole thing. I'm half tempted to bring one to league nights with me. If playing for big $$$, maybe the hall could provide one?---a little added value, so to speak.

Our league has the 45 degree rule, which actually allows fouls IF your cue is 45 degrees up or over from a full hit. Yet at the state tournament, a referee is available to watch, but why, if the setup rule is the standard?

Two years ago at the state tourney, my opponent called a ref to watch my close hit. I jacked up 45 degrees as per the rule and he called a foul on me and my opponent ran out with ball in hand. The "ref" said he knew I didn't know what I was doing by how I aligned the shot. (I guess he's never heard of combining directional and side throw..:( ) The next year, I asked the head ref about this call and he said the other ref made the wrong call and I should not have been fouled. Too late and too bad as it put our team out of the tourney.

Oh well.

Jeff Livingston
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Sounds like a BCA ref. That crew is unbelievably bad. And then there is the exmarine from Fl that can recite every rule in the book.........but can't make a good hit/bad hit call.
 
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