Crying Foul with No Witness!

[Bob Jewett]

Howdy,
I am glad that u mentioned about catastrophies.I always wanted the framers of laws/rules for pool/Billiards define every thing.Here is my hypothetical Question:It is the finals of a Pro Tour event.There is only one table.All the other tables are already removed from the arena(Like in WPBA events).A player masse`s a shot and as a result there is a big tear in the cloth.The opponent does not want to play on that table.what do u do?

The referee determines whether the game can fairly continue. If a player refuses to shoot when it is his turn, he loses. There are ways to fix tears, at least partly.

And then there was Robert Cannefax who was supposed to play a match but the cloth was not up to his standard, so he got out his pocket knife and made sure no match could be played on that cloth. He was not asked to finish the match.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Having recently gotten a camera phone I must ask, why not take a picture of the shot BEFORE shooting it and then setting it up again would be easier? And a lot of you probably have those little cheap video cameras that could capture the whole thing. I'm half tempted to bring one to league nights with me. If playing for big $$$, maybe the hall could provide one?---a little added value, so to speak.
...

The problem usually is that you don't realize that you want a record of the shot until after the shot is done. I played one match in which my opponent purposely shot into a cluster at break speed so he could argue that he had really gotten a good hit on his partly blocked ball. Fortunately the LO was there and knew the methods of that player.

 

[crawdaddio]

But i have on a couple instances if a person was looking away and didnt see the shot and doesnt ask, i wont say anything. Because its thier fault for not asking.


dave

Isn't this kind of like stealing a pack of cigarettes from a grocery store and saying "well they weren't looking, so it's ok"?

An honest question.
I wouldn't even consider it a win-if I won like that.
~DC

 

[chefjeff]

The problem usually is that you don't realize that you want a record of the shot until after the shot is done. I played one match in which my opponent purposely shot into a cluster at break speed so he could argue that he had really gotten a good hit on his partly blocked ball. Fortunately the LO was there and knew the methods of that player.

The hand is quicker than the eye...lol. This happens in league play quite a bit, though it is usually because the player doesn't have a clue that he is fouling and just shoots too quickly to be stopped by his opponent.

But if the opponent can question the player's shot before he shoots, then he has the opportunity to use the camera.

Perhaps the rules will eventually include "instant replays."

Jeff Livingston

 

[FLICKit]

You have got to be kidding, right?

NO... But you are right?

First of all, it is always preferable to have a ref witness a shot, where a foul may be in question. That's obvious.

The point from Bob is that there are times in a match where it isn't obvious pre-shot that a potential foul will be made. Another point is that without a ref watching every shot, then every match relies on a level of honesty between both players. Otherwise, if you are stripes, then you can hit a solid on purpose and lie and say you didn't. If all calls go to the shooter, then you'd win the argument without question. None of us want a solution where the liar/cheater can always win.

Thus, the shooter wins all argument rule does not work well in ALL situations. So, the suggestion of redoing the shot on a different table is a potential remedy for some of those important situations. The idea is that both players would somewhat agree to the original position of the balls. Then both players would relay their ideas of what happened to the balls and stick (if relevant) during the shot.

After you've gathered both perspectives of what happened, you allow the shooter to demonstrate his proficiency at executing the shot again. I'd suggest giving him 3 chances at it, because 1 chance would not always reflect accurately on the shooter's ability.

If the shooter executes it similarly with the ref now watching his every move, then it's deemed as a legitimate shot, and continue play. If it's not, then rule a foul, and continue play as such.

All of this can be handled in reasonable amount of time, and thus put an end to the argument, and allow play to continue.


I had this happen to me in a big tournament this weekend. My opponent claimed I fouled, but I knew I didn't. The shooter wins rule was in effect in this tournament, so nothing could be done. But, I would've been willing to re-setup the balls and execute it again, if for nothing else, just to shut my opponent up. Speaking of, I almost just volunteered ball in hand anyway, because based on the table layout, it wouldn't have made a difference anyway. But it's not always wise to take that chance. I proceeded to be as gracious as possible throughout the remainder of the match, and even made a few recommendations, "would you like to have this shot watched?". No further issues occurred, but of course, I wouldn't be surprised if the opponent whined about cheating every time the story was retold.

 

[DaveK]

Decide in advance

Here is something that happens now and then at the hall ... When there is a very close carom to be played and a foul is definate possibility, I've seen players and their opponents discuss the shot first, deciding what direction the various balls will travel after a good and not-good hit. Basically setting the decision criteria in advance. Once the shot is played the good vs nogood decision is obvious from the way the balls spread.

Dave

 

[FLICKit]

We also play a couple of 45-degree rules when CB and OB are within a chalk-cube distance. If you shoot into the ball and have your cue elevated at least 45 degrees, no push foul can be called. Also, if you shoot at least 45 degrees of cut on the close ball, again no foul can be called. Don't know how common this approach is, but would be interested to hear if any other halls have similar rules (hey, I don't get out much ).

Dave


While playing in an APA league this week, I was asked to watch a hit. After making the call, a double hit, I was told by the shooter's coach that his player had the cue elevated at 45 degrees, and therefore the hit was good. I told him I knew nothing of this concept, but pointed out that I based my call on the fact that the cb followed the ob down table which could only happen with a double hit. I should also point out that while the shooter was jacked-up, he was still aiming at the center of the cb, and the balls were only about 1/4" apart. The coach didn't really argue much, but I know he thinks I made a bad call.

Mike

I suggest you spend a moment to review the rule book under Push Shots. This will help clear up the ambiguities. First of all, recognize that since Push Shots are controversial they will not be called during normal league play. Push Shots may be called at the national tournament level, since referees are available to watch and make the ruling. Second, just clarifying that if you want to lessen the chances of being accused of a push shot, then it's recommended that you elevate the butt of your cue 30 degrees.

 

[Walt in VA]

I suggest you spend a moment to review the rule book under Push Shots. This will help clear up the ambiguities. First of all, recognize that since Push Shots are controversial they will not be called during normal league play. Push Shots may be called at the national tournament level, since referees are available to watch and make the ruling. Second, just clarifying that if you want to lessen the chances of being accused of a push shot, then it's recommended that you elevate the butt of your cue 30 degrees.

But this is not about push shots, it's about double hit fouls, and they are watched, and called, in many APA territories during normal league play.

Walt in VA

 

[Teacherman]

I don't care how high you elevate your cue......you can still foul.

What the balls do tells the story.

 

[FLICKit]

But this is not about push shots, it's about double hit fouls, and they are watched, and called, in many APA territories during normal league play.

Walt in VA

You are confusing a Push Shot with a Push Out. Push Outs are not allowed in 9 ball, that's a different issue. But if you look up Push Shot, it will explain all the details regarding a shot where you potentially push your stick through to contact the cue ball twice.

 

[FLICKit]

I don't care how high you elevate your cue......you can still foul.

What the balls do tells the story.

You sure like being controversial don't ya. When given two or more options of how to respond, you always seem to choose the controversial one. You've amassed quite a rep that way.

Re-read the statement....

if you want to lessen the chances of being accused of a push shot, then it's recommended that you elevate the butt of your cue 30 degrees.

Thus elevating the stick WILL LESSEN the chances of a push shot/double hit. True elevating the stick does not eliminate the foul in all cases. You are more unlikely to foul when you elevate your stick, unless the stroke is so horribly executed or so difficult that not even elevating remedies it.

Any pool player that understands the logic, can thus see what the cue ball and other balls do during the shot to determine whether or not a double hit foul was committed.

 

[Walt in VA]

You are confusing a Push Shot with a Push Out. Push Outs are not allowed in 9 ball, that's a different issue. But if you look up Push Shot, it will explain all the details regarding a shot where you potentially push your stick through to contact the cue ball twice.

I am not confusing anything - YOU are confusing a push shot with a double hit foul. They are not the same.

I agree with Teacherman and your last paragraph - what the balls do will tell the story to a watcher who knows what he is looking at.

BTW, push-outs are certainly allowed in 9-ball; just not in APA 9-ball.

Walt in VA

 

[FLICKit]

I am not confusing anything - YOU are confusing a push shot with a double hit foul. They are not the same.

I agree with Teacherman and your last paragraph - what the balls do will tell the story to a watcher who knows what he is looking at.

BTW, push-outs are certainly allowed in 9-ball; just not in APA 9-ball.

Walt in VA

Walt, did you read the section in your manual? If you don't have a rule book with ya, you can go to the following link and read it on-line. http://www.poolplayers.com/materials.html.

I'll even save you the effort.

PUSH SHOTS: A push shot involves a situation where the cue ball
is frozen or nearly frozen to the object ball. The problem faced by the
shooter is to keep from pushing or keeping the tip of the cue on the
cue ball. It looks bad and is generally thought of as illegal. Push
shots are controversial. Push shots will not be called in this amateur
League. Even the professional players cannot agree about what is and
isn't a push shot. In general, you can lessen your chances of being
accused of shooting a push shot if you elevate the butt of your cue
about 30 degrees. This automatically cuts down the length of the
follow through which is the principal cause of a push shot. Players
who repeatedly guide the cue ball with force through object balls that
are frozen or nearly frozen to the cue ball, using a level cue and long
follow through, may be subject to a sportsmanship penalty.


As I said, 9 ball was a different issue. All the posts that I was referring to were in regards to APA and thus answered them accordingly.

PUSH-OUT: ...Pushing-out involves announcing the intent to push-out, and
then shooting the cue ball to a new position. The shooter doesn’t need to
satisfy the legal shot rule (driving a ball to a rail after a legal hit).... Normal game rules apply from that point
on. Push-outs are fairly standard in pro events and in the U.S. Amateur
(conducted by the APA); however, APA rules for all handicapped
competition does not allow push-outs because they give the more highly
skilled player a big advantage, for obvious reasons.


This should clarify the difference between a Push Shot and a Push Out. As you can see by definition a double hit foul is a form of Push Shot. If you still see some ambiguities, then there probably won't be much else I can do to clarify it any further. Feel free to pursue the matter through other avenues (friends, league players, league operator, or through national representatives).

 

[Teacherman]

...I agree with Teacherman...

You're a smart man, Walt.

 

[Teacherman]

You sure like being controversial don't ya. When given two or more options of how to respond, you always seem to choose the controversial one....

Better have it ready if you're trying to pick it with me flickit.

Nothing wrong with my post. Problem is your bias.

 

[FLICKit]

Better have it ready if you're trying to pick it with me flickit.

Nothing wrong with my post. Problem is your bias.

LOL... What's that?

Better have it ready? What IT are you talking about?

Pick it with you. Haven't tried to Pick it with you. I stated what appears to be obvious conclusion from others. If someone other than you, has a different opinion of you, then I'd be interested in hearing there viewpoint. We'll leave YOUR BIAS and mine out of the issue.

Speaking of Bias, what bias were you referring to?

 

[Jack Flanagan]

Perhaps the rules will eventually include "instant replays."

Jeff Livingston

can't wait,,,,a 4 hour game of 9 ball,,,,replays,,,referees,,,LMAO

 

[FLICKit]

can't wait,,,,a 4 hour game of 9 ball,,,,replays,,,referees,,,LMAO

When it comes to a choice of making it quick, or getting it right. I'd vote for getting it right.

Football instant replay, even with its quirks and bad renditions early on, at least it's nice that they have removed a large majority of the wrong calls that used to be made. On numerous occasions those calls decided the final outcome of the game. Currently, this season, I'd say that every team that advanced through the playoffs did so on merit rather than erroneous calls.

Nothing is perfect, there is still room for some improvements. Overall, I'd say it's a plus.

 

[turquoisecrazy]

If the call is tight, and no one saw it, whther the shooter foul or not, the other guy call, and throw the shooter off. The foul caller wins no matter whether he gets the ball in hand or not cos he manages to distract the shooter. Worst yet, he makes the shooter feel guilt, like he does not deserve to win. Of course, if the shooter is real tough and not give a dame, then it is not really going to work. Most guys who try to be nice will feel bad and get distracted. So, the caller acheive an advantage by calling anyway. The more he calls, the worst the shooter feels. He may also ask others to watch a lot of shots, and interupt the shooter from getiing into his rhythem...what is he going to do...very sad...but true....powerful sharking tool to keep crying foul and asking someone to ref. You can drive anyone crazy enopugh not to play his best game and get a BS win...

 

[FLICKit]

If the call is tight, and no one saw it, whther the shooter foul or not, the other guy call, and throw the shooter off. The foul caller wins no matter whether he gets the ball in hand or not cos he manages to distract the shooter. Worst yet, he makes the shooter feel guilt, like he does not deserve to win. Of course, if the shooter is real tough and not give a dame, then it is not really going to work. Most guys who try to be nice will feel bad and get distracted. So, the caller acheive an advantage by calling anyway. The more he calls, the worst the shooter feels. He may also ask others to watch a lot of shots, and interupt the shooter from getiing into his rhythem...what is he going to do...very sad...but true....powerful sharking tool to keep crying foul and asking someone to ref. You can drive anyone crazy enopugh not to play his best game and get a BS win...

Overall, in any event, you have to be mentally prepared for distracting behavior (i.e. shaking balloons, or foam sticks in Basketball, shouts and whistles from stands in tennis, or even flash photography during a swing in golf like happens to Tiger). Outrageous behavior can be tempered to some degree, but not always guaranteed to be eliminated. Tiger doesn't get to hit a second ball... even if he did, that wouldn't change the fact that the rude action is already prevalent in the back of his mind. If you're a good player you have to be mentally tough enough to handle those situations, or be able to deal with the actions directly with the offender.

Of course, excessive use of ref, when obviously unneccesary would be deemed as unsportmanslike, and could be handled accordingly (i.e. loss of game or even disqualification from tournament).