CTE and BHE, a thought

M

mohrt

Student of the Game
Silver Member
So BHE (backhand english). Those that don't know what it is, it is away to apply english or spin by pivoting the cue on the bridge. Line up a shot dead center then apply any sort of english by moving the back hand opposite the spin. The cue will no longer be pointing down the shot line, however the OB will still track to the pocket quite nicely. There are technical details involving bridge length, but the reality is that most shots will work quite nice with a comfortable bridge length. To test this, put the cueball on the head spot, and shoot directly into the center of the foot rail. Now add a tip or two of spin with BHE, see that the cueball still hits that same spot before rebounding.

Now for Manual CTE. Line up a visual, CTEL and any A/B/C. Slide into the 1/2 tip offset. You are now looking down the cue at an offset from center ball. If we go ahead and shoot the shot with no pivot the OB will still track to the pocket, albeit with a 1/2 tip of spin on the cueball. When we pivot to center, we might pivot perfectly to center, or a little less, or a little more. In any event, the OB will still quite equivocally track to the pocket. Why would that be? We are seeing the same observation as we did with BHE. With CTE we are simply sliding into a 1/2 tip of BHE on the shot, then correcting it to CCB.

Just an interesting way to think about it.
 
If one has a way to aim using center cue ball like GB aiming etc., already - one can augment this with BHE to get shape or throw.

One needs to learn how to use CTE to aim post pivot CCB and then apply BHE to get shape?
 
with manual pivots i had problems applying BHE, what I found worked for me was to go through the CTE steps, arrive at the shot line, then apply the english. With Pro1 its obviously a lot easier.
 
mohrt said:
So BHE (backhand english). Those that don't know what it is, it is away to apply english or spin by pivoting the cue on the bridge. Line up a shot dead center then apply any sort of english by moving the back hand opposite the spin. The cue will no longer be pointing down the shot line, however the OB will still track to the pocket quite nicely. There are technical details involving bridge length, but the reality is that most shots will work quite nice with a comfortable bridge length. To test this, put the cueball on the head spot, and shoot directly into the center of the foot rail. Now add a tip or two of spin with BHE, see that the cueball still hits that same spot before rebounding.

Now for Manual CTE. Line up a visual, CTEL and any A/B/C. Slide into the 1/2 tip offset. You are now looking down the cue at an offset from center ball. If we go ahead and shoot the shot with no pivot the OB will still track to the pocket, albeit with a 1/2 tip of spin on the cueball. When we pivot to center, we might pivot perfectly to center, or a little less, or a little more. In any event, the OB will still quite equivocally track to the pocket. Why would that be? We are seeing the same observation as we did with BHE. With CTE we are simply sliding into a 1/2 tip of BHE on the shot, then correcting it to CCB.

Just an interesting way to think about it.
Click to expand...

The two pivots are actually performed different. This might work on a range of shots but not all the shots that cte is used for.
 
BHE is performed with a straight cue ending at an angled cue after the arc. A 1/2 tip pivot does the same, which is why they're not congruent. The 1/2 tip offset would have to be angled at address and end at perpendicular in order to be congruent. They're siamese twins, but not the same.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Why not just slide into CCB?

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Imagine while down on the shot, you could align CCB to the edge or quarter of the OB so that a 1/2 tip pivot ends on the shot line. That is what CTE gives you. Sliding into CCB is a valid option too, but you'd be doing more guessing. ;)
 
tashworth19191 said:
I think you should use a little TOI, while aiming with CTE, using BHE, with a little CCE, CCP, CIT and CRAP.

:-)
Click to expand...

All of which are solid concepts in helping people play better. There are far far far more people who don't think it's crap than who do.

What unique and creative ideas have you presented to the pool community? I think the only thread of yours that I read was the "CTE -- I DONT GET IT" thread. As a forum reader, I don't know if the CTE is crap or if your IQ is crap. What isn't crap is that a lot of people benefited from the info..... so where does that leave you?
 
cookie man said:
Because it's not what the system calls for. You know this but you can't help contributing to what you call the dumbing down of az.
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So the system consistently "takes you" to the same half-tip pivot from the aim line, but for some unexplained reason it can't "take you" to the aim line itself?

And this makes sense to you?

pj
chgo
 
SpiderWebComm said:
BHE is performed with a straight cue ending at an angled cue after the arc. A 1/2 tip pivot does the same, which is why they're not congruent. The 1/2 tip offset would have to be angled at address and end at perpendicular in order to be congruent. They're siamese twins, but not the same.
Click to expand...

I posed this same question about BHE and CTE a while back, and instead of an explanation, I just got dissed for trying to find something to 'nitpick'... I think that was the response I got.

Anyway, SWC, I don't understand your 'compare/contrast' paragraph that I quoted above. Could you have another go at making the distinction between the the two motions? No nitpicking here. I'm just trying to understand what you meant.

Thanks.

- s.west
 
Patrick Johnson said:
So the system consistently "takes you" to the same half-tip pivot from the aim line, but for some unexplained reason it can't "take you" to the aim line itself?

And this makes sense to you?

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

The visuals are what take you to the 1/2 tip offset. It is always a 1/2 tip pivot to CCB from there. Technically you could use other offsets than 1/2 tip, but 1/2 tip is the easiest and most objective. Spidey uses one with a pivot from the edge of the ball, for instance. Pro One turns the 1/2 tip pivot into one movement from ball address.

[edit] You WANT a 1/2 tip offset, because from this position you can see the perception that lines up the shot perfectly. Exactly what I said in the first post of this thread. Read it again.
 
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So the system consistently "takes you" to the same half-tip pivot from the aim line, but for some unexplained reason it can't "take you" to the aim line itself?

And this makes sense to you?

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
[mohrt:
The visuals are what take you to the 1/2 tip offset. ... Technically you could use other offsets than 1/2 tip
Click to expand...
So you can choose whatever small angle you want from the actual aim line and learn the "visuals" that take you there. So why not learn "visuals" that take you to zero degrees from the actual aim line?

The answer is: obviously you could, if the system actually "took you" anywhere. Clearly the purpose of the pivot isn't what you've been told - its purpose is to allow you to convince yourself that you aren't adjusting by feel.

pj
chgo

P.S. I appreciate your civil tone - it's refreshing in these topics. I'm blunt because I want to be clear.

P.P.S. I agree with your observation that the CTE pivot is "backwards" BHE.
 
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swest said:
I posed this same question about BHE and CTE a while back, and instead of an explanation, I just got dissed for trying to find something to 'nitpick'... I think that was the response I got.

Anyway, SWC, I don't understand your 'compare/contrast' paragraph that I quoted above. Could you have another go at making the distinction between the the two motions? No nitpicking here. I'm just trying to understand what you meant.

Thanks.

- s.west
Click to expand...
With bhe, you cue starts from a perpendicular orientation to the face of cb and ends with an angled orientation. With CTE/Pro1, the cue starts from a 1/2 offset that's perpendicular and ends with an angled orientation. Therefore, the two are not congruent.

With CTE, there is only 1 offset distance where the cue is perpendicular, and from there...as the offset increases, the starting anglr of the cue must also increase. Ine case use a single bridge distance, but the effective pivot point moves backwards as shot distance increases.

With BHE, the pivot point always remains static, regardless of the shot distance.

Therefore, the two appear to be very similar, but actually serve very purposes. I totally see what Mort is saying, but if you increase the cue offset beyond the 1/2 tip, you'll see it's different. From the 1/2 tip offset, they appear on the surface to be very close, but almost mirrors of each other.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
So you can choose whatever small angle you want from the actual aim line and learn the "visuals" that take you there. So why not learn "visuals" that take you to zero degrees from the actual aim line?

The answer is: obviously you could, if the system actually "took you" anywhere. Clearly the purpose of the pivot isn't what you've been told - its purpose is to allow you to convince yourself that you aren't adjusting by feel.

pj
chgo

P.S. I appreciate your civil tone - it's refreshing in these topics. I'm blunt because I want to be clear.

P.P.S. I agree with your observation that the CTE pivot is "backwards" BHE.
Click to expand...

Our visuals use reference lines that take us there so we don't have to guess like some people.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
So you can choose whatever small angle you want from the actual aim line and learn the "visuals" that take you there. So why not learn "visuals" that take you to zero degrees from the actual aim line?

The answer is: obviously you could, if the system actually "took you" anywhere. Clearly the purpose of the pivot isn't what you've been told - its purpose is to allow you to convince yourself that you aren't adjusting by feel.

pj
chgo

P.S. I appreciate your civil tone - it's refreshing in these topics. I'm blunt because I want to be clear.

P.P.S. I agree with your observation that the CTE pivot is "backwards" BHE.
Click to expand...


It is very clearly not the case. When you start at a standing visual (CTEL - A/B/C), then move very strictly in at a 1/2 tip offset to THIS fixed CCB, you can very strictly turn the cue to CCB and you are at the shotline. This can only work if the standing visual is exact. A bonus that Stan has recently unleashed is that you can see the CTEL perception when down on the shot, it is on the edge or quarter of the OB. This is a way to tweak to absolute perfection if you did not arrive there already. Once you grasp the system it is akin to looking down a rifle scope compared to ghost ball.

P.S. I enjoy the civil discussion myself.
 
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"So why not learn "visuals" that take you to zero degrees from the actual aim line?"
PJ

One could learn to aim the edge of the CB at the OB...some do.
 
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