CTE automatically corrects stroke issues

Seems like an admission that the subconscious recognizes when one is aiming incorrectly. Apparently that's only true for non CTE users? If you aim with CTE then your subconscious keeps quiet and no tweaking ever occurs?
Of course the subconscious is part of the process. It is part of being alive. However with CTE the process is CONSCIOUS and when you're wrong then you are consistently wrong. So IF you have a straight stroke and you deliver it straight through the ball CONSCIOUSLY then you will miss the same way. If however you don't have a straight stroke then it is likely that part of the reason why you don't have a straight stroke is because of compensating for aiming wrong. IF you have a crooked stroke BUT you are applying CTE correctly then CTE will help you to have a straighter stroke because your brain will likely recognize that you are on or are very close to the actual shot line. The more that you figure out that the shot line you get from CTE is right the more your brain can relax and trust that line which allows you to stroke straighter than you might otherwise do it. So looking at it from a percentage viewpoint it is likely that CTE does have some stroke "straightening" properties.

I have NEVER said that the subconscious isn't part of aiming. I have said and maintain that the conscious is what a CTE user deliberately uses when performing the steps in the process. CTE knockers have stated that CTE does not work and the ONLY POSSIBLE WAY that the shooter gets to the shot line is because of subconscious adjustment. Through my experience it is now my opinion that "body english" (i.e. crooked stroke) comes in part from the subconscious "adjusting" to compensate after a person deliberately chose a line that "looks right" but which in reality is slightly wrong.

I am not a big fan of using "the subconscious" as a catch-all though, not for successfully pocketed shots and not for missed shots. I believe it is certainly a part of playing pool but to what extent, where and how it makes choices and "forces" physical activity is unknown.

I think that with CTE aiming the subconscious is likely far far far quieter than with ghost ball aiming. And I feel that to the extent that it plays a part is likely to be a freakishly tiny adjustment if there is one at all. I was however, in regards to your FAKE problem, speculating on why a real CTE user, as opposed to a knocking forum poster who doesn't use CTE and who couldn't perform the steps on demand, MIGHT experience no "stroke improvement" when using CTE. I also laid out how I think CTE might help with "straightening a stroke" just through usage of CTE.

My thoughts on the subject are a result of thinking about the subject of objective aiming from a real CTE user's perspective. Not sure why I didn't think to just ask Stan directly why he says that CTE straightens a stroke but I will ask. I am sure he has some reason for saying that which makes sense to him.

When people are concerned with aiming it's rarely on the hangers he shoots in his videos. It's usually the tougher shots that cause problems. He might get more believers if he was whacking in long tough shots in the videos. Wonder why he doesn't. Could it be that he'd be missing a lot of them? I seem to recall a video by you shooting medium tough shots and missing over and over. Oh I'm sorry, that must have been back when your vision was fuzzy. Maybe make a new video now that yours eyes are good.

Here you go, Stan is making long shots without being able to see the pocket. These are done on a ten foot table with tight pockets.


Here he makes five spot shots from several different cue ball placements.


You wanted some long shots, here you go.


Here Stan plays a variety of shots using CTE:


Race to Five against the 9 Ball Ghost.

 
Seems like an admission that the subconscious recognizes when one is aiming incorrectly. Apparently that's only true for non CTE users? If you aim with CTE then your subconscious keeps quiet and no tweaking ever occurs?

When people are concerned with aiming it's rarely on the hangers he shoots in his videos. It's usually the tougher shots that cause problems. He might get more believers if he was whacking in long tough shots in the videos. Wonder why he doesn't. Could it be that he'd be missing a lot of them? I seem to recall a video by you shooting medium tough shots and missing over and over. Oh I'm sorry, that must have been back when your vision was fuzzy. Maybe make a new video now that yours eyes are good.
Anytime you want to bet high against Stan making long shots I am in for up to $5000 at $100 a shot. We both put up $5000 and if Stan makes 50 long shots before he misses 50 I win. We agree on what constitutes a "long" shot and each get to make up 25 of those diagrammed with a number assigned to each one. We use the random number generator to pick the shot he will attempt.

I can guarantee you that the reason Stan hasn't done some sort of specific long "tough" shot video is not because of any unfavorable miss percentage and I am equally confident that NO ONE in pool will bet against Stan in the sort of test I outlined above.

As for the knock on me, you can be assured that I will absolutely do more videos now that my eyes are fixed. I played golf a week ago on a 6x12 snooker table and I could see the edges clearly no matter how far away I was. I used CTE and won.

Stan has plenty of students doing what he is doing. His students are fully clear about what they are getting from the content that he has up.

For me personally when I saw Stan doing the banking videos with a curtain covering half the table that was enough for me to want to explore what he was using to aim. I didn't need to see long shots directly to a pocket.

I am going to go out on a limb and say that IF Stan were to do a video of him making whatever you consider to be "tough" shots then it would not matter at all to you. Mockers aren't interested in shotmaking demonstrations where people are making shots, that has been clearly established. But if someone else makes a video and misses some shots then OMG there is the PROOF that the system doesn't work.
 
Why do people aim bad? Because they go to AZ billiards for advice. And when the truth is told they still drink the kool aid.
Nope, absolutely not. It is because they have to wade through a ton of knocking crap to get to any useful information on the actual CTE process.

I think most people who adopt CTE become more accurate aimers. System aimers like you are more accurate on average in my opinion. You're an aiming system user who won't describe or teach what you use.
 
Last edited:
Maybe pool clearly wasn't your life back then, but did you ever imagine a POOL FORUM would be your life and consume it daily for 10-15 years as you argued and attacked an AIMING SYSTEM as well as all of those who use it effectively?
How do you know what I've been doing on AZ for the last 15 years when you've only been here for 3? You aren't making any sense.

Not only that but doing it in a losing battle after it's hit the market and the world of pool with thousands of pool players including pros using, touting, and teaching it worldwide. What would the correct diagnosis be, by psychiatrists, for such an incredible obsession and waste of time?
The term you are looking for is "strawman argument." You are an expert at it even if you don't know what it means.

But battle on my man, battle on. You're having no effect on the world of pool itself, while you keep going deeper and deeper down into a mental abyss....accompanied by a few others. A mental abyss that has taken over your lives, sending you to absolutely nowhere.
Pretty funny and fitting, I guess.
Drama much? lol. I'm pretty sure if you look at my last 20 or so posts in the last week you won't find much at all about CTE. Maybe nothing. If we look at your last 20 posts how many do you imagine would be about CTE? Who's obsessed?

C'mon now, answer back and do what you do best as if it matters. Adios.
I'm sure I made your day.
 
For me personally when I saw Stan doing the banking videos with a curtain covering half the table that was enough for me to want to explore what he was using to aim. I didn't need to see long shots directly to a pocket.
Sigh. When will you understand that nobody cares if a bank pool champion who has been banking for 60 years can bank balls with a curtain? It's like making wing shots. Fun to watch the skill required but a trick shot is what it is. Far more convincing for the cause of CTE is if a beginner who is proficient in CTE could also do this. Why can't you do this? Maybe Stan doesn't understand marketing. Ever see an infomercial where some 5 year old girl can open a jar of pickles by using some great gizmo they are selling? It's like that. Nobody cares if Andre the Giant can open the jar with the gizmo. It seems as if Stan is the only CTE user who can do the curtain bank trick.
 
Get a ghost ball aim trainer, it lets you shoot right at the shot line. If cte was excact in finding the aim line(which it isn't) how does knowing where to hit the cue ball straighten the stroke??? Shouldn't the ghost ball aim trainer do the same according to your theory.

You may have a bad stroke and nothing cures it unless you change something about what your bodies doing.

A straight in long shot is all you need to practice. Figure out what's going wrong with you.

What's next...cte cures covid.
People who use cte are smarter and therefore less likely to follow the crowds wacky advice and actually use medicines that work in curing COVID. Imo

Sent from my BE2028 using Tapatalk
 
Of course the subconscious is part of the process. It is part of being alive. However with CTE the process is CONSCIOUS and when you're wrong then you are consistently wrong. So IF you have a straight stroke and you deliver it straight through the ball CONSCIOUSLY then you will miss the same way. If however you don't have a straight stroke then it is likely that part of the reason why you don't have a straight stroke is because of compensating for aiming wrong. IF you have a crooked stroke BUT you are applying CTE correctly then CTE will help you to have a straighter stroke because your brain will likely recognize that you are on or are very close to the actual shot line. The more that you figure out that the shot line you get from CTE is right the more your brain can relax and trust that line which allows you to stroke straighter than you might otherwise do it. So looking at it from a percentage viewpoint it is likely that CTE does have some stroke "straightening" properties.
Just adding some anecdotes here. No matter what aiming system I've ever used in my life (even my "personal" one) I always know why I missed. I know why I missed with ghost ball, CTE, TOI, other more traditional aiming systems, etc. Sure, it's took me a lot of experience to know this stuff, but as long as I'm actually focusing and not just socially banging balls around, I know why it missed. Maybe at first it's helpful to narrow the scope to certain aims so you can more easily parse the info, but if you consciously pay attention, and PLAY around with stuff, it becomes obvious quickly why a miss happened. Even "misses" that pocket a ball. If your cue ball makes you shoot a back up shot, you should know why it happened, and you do (once you have the knowledge), no matter how you aim. Even when I get decent shape, I know what could have been done to get better shape just by observing.

All of this gets easier when you get your stance and stroke under control and consistent. Good fundamentals are your baseline/control in the experiment you are about to do every time you shoot a shot. I honestly suggest everyone set aside some practice time for just some playful shots, try oddball crap that has no place in a match. These oddball shots still program your brain and help understand concepts. It's easier to understand running or reverse english if you load the cueball up to the very miscue limits, the results are exaggerated and easier to understand than when the effect is subtle. Set up a cut shot to the right and try to kill the cueball dead as you can with low left and then with low right. Both can work perfectly, but you need to learn throw to do so. Why waste the time? Maybe CB is blocked on one side, maybe you need some stupidly pinpoint shape to WIN. Isn't it much better to understand it than be at the table with no clue what to do, resulting in a miss, or even a horrible miscue? I think so. I've had opponents confused as hell as to how I got shape by drawing a thin cut shot the opposite way than what would naturally happen. I simply stroked the piss out of it with extreme draw+english to produce the throw I wanted. The pocket "widens" because you are TUNED IN to an extreme degree and make shape around difficult blockers. In the end it's all spinning marbles so why not try some fun stuff? It's called "playing" pool after all.

One aspect I do like about CTE and TOI is that it gets you tuned in to a great degree because you have to understand how to hit it to make it work, if you hit it wrong you are already strongly tuned in, so taking the info in with your eyes is easy. CJ talks about zones in the pocket. It's dead easy to get different zones if you understand throw and how to manipulate the shot line. Tuning in to seeing where the ball goes into the pocket is another way to get tuned in and see how your "experiment" worked.

The thing I struggled with was that when I started I had a bad stroke, yet I could use BHE, swerving, chicken wings or whatever to hit the ball correctly at contact. It's been a real bastard to get rid of the bad habits because by seeing the ball pocketed as a good thing I couldn't objectively not like a bad chicken wing. It worked, why was it bad? The answer: consistency. Pocketing the ball doesn't mean you're doing it right. Pocketing it more often means you are closer to right. Never missing (lol) means you're doing it perfectly.
 
Nope, absolutely. It is because they have to wade through a ton of knocking crap to get to any useful information on the actual CTE process.

I think most people who adopt CTE become more accurate aimers. System aimers like you are more accurate on average in my opinion. You're an aiming system user who won't describe or teach what you use.
It doesn't matter what systems I use, you can't teach someone a perception of what the shot looks like to someone else. You can try to explain it but one must learn his own. It will always boil down to a certain look. The same shot with a different speed or spin will boil down to a certain look not like before. What I'm saying is center ball aiming is not the same as going outside the center aiming. To play good you must go away from trying connect the balls with most of your aiming methods, poor brain would explode.

You wanna up your game learn how to use the contact point and learn how to gear the balls. Long shots are done a certain way . (Easier to get a good shot picture ) Short shots a done a certain way. (Again Easier to see the shot picture.)
 
It doesn't matter what systems I use, you can't teach someone a perception of what the shot looks like to someone else. You can try to explain it but one must learn his own. It will always boil down to a certain look. The same shot with a different speed or spin will boil down to a certain look not like before. What I'm saying is center ball aiming is not the same as going outside the center aiming. To play good you must go away from trying connect the balls with most of your aiming methods, poor brain would explode.

You wanna up your game learn how to use the contact point and learn how to gear the balls. Long shots are done a certain way . (Easier to get a good shot picture ) Short shots a done a certain way. (Again Easier to see the shot picture.)
It does matter. Because humans are not unique. While each of us is a unique mixture of cells/bacteria/neural network/physical agility we are far more alike than we are different.

We have a very similar set of physical tools to make our way through the world and handle tasks that we are faced with.

That commonality allows us to create mental techniques to assist in tasks that require making a decision to physically act. There is plenty of research that shows that such tools improve the results.

Take ghost ball. Extremely simple to show or describe the concept to another person. Any pool player has two states of being in their pool knowledge. Before they learned ghost ball and after.

So when you teach someone the ghost ball concept and you know that before teaching it their pocketing ability was x% and immediately after teaching them that ability increases by y% then it is a reasonable conclusion that the application of that mental technique to aim is responsible for the increase in pocketing ability.

I read a comment about you where you were thanked for helping someone understand 90/90. Maybe I misunderstood the comment but if true then it means you learned 90/90 and figured it out well enough to help someone else to figure it out.

The very fact that you learned 90/90 is a testament to the fact that concepts can be transferred. If the premise is to visually line up the right edges, put your cue on that line, pivot to center and that will be the shot line then it is unlikely that the average human with two functioning eyes and no debilitating handicap will be so far off that they won't figure out the correct visual+physical motion with trial and error and perhaps a little instruction.

Some people get it right away and others need a little extra but it is the commonality between humans that makes this possible. The uniqueness of how people think is what causes dissonance between instructions and implementation. Take the exact same instructions and some people get it immediately, some people need to think about it a little more, some people really struggle. Change the instructions and which people get it in what amount of time changes.

I often talk about teaching jumping with a jump cue. The myth is that jump cues make it so easy that anyone can jump immediately but this is absolutely not true. I have five years of experience teaching jumping at major shows that proves this myth wrong. I had to have about five different ways to explain the concept and stroke techniques because it became super clear at the first show that one approach was not going to work for all users.

I had at times four people jumping at the same time on the same table. I say this so that everyone understands that this was a major thing for me. We sold a couple hundred thousand dollars worth of jump cues in the first two years. But when I got into it I was adamant that I should be able to not only demonstrate proficiency but also teach techniques that the purchaser could learn before leaving the booth and use to improve their skill.

I had help from a couple folks who were with me at that time to develop several ways of teaching the skill. Once the shooter understood the concept and the physical motion they all resolved to the same approach to the shot and their success rates improved accordingly. But getting them to that point was sometimes easy and sometimes incredibly frustrating.

And I am not talking about bangers. I taught, and still teach, players at all levels. Sometimes I would get a pretty decent shooter who just couldn't seem to understand what I was describing and they would say that they cue was no good. I would stick with it and at since point a light bulb would go off and they would "get it" and their eyes would light up and the frustration would be gone and they would go from struggling to discovering the limits of what was possible. I can't really explain the feeling of accomplishment every time that happened.

If I had simply demonstrated it, took their money and said "happy jumping" I am sure that some of them would have given up in disgust thinking they had been sold a gimmick instead of an actual tool.

And in fact our case booth was next to a seller of jump cues at a couple of shows in the past several years and that seller was exactly the type who thought that those trying his cue were just too stupid to perform with his cue and frequently harangued the potential buyers if they didn't perform successful jump shots right away. He would grab the cue do a few shots and hand it back and if they still didn't get it he would shoo them away. It was the craziest thing listening to this with my experience.

After two days I couldn't stand it and I talked to him when there was a slow period and explained my experience and approach with jump cue sales. I taught him several ways to identify issues and how to overcome them. Within an hour the whole tenor at his booth changed and he went from pushy salesman to patient teacher and sales went up immediately. At the end of the day he thanked me and ever since when I saw him at a show he was having a good show.

So, respectfully, I do disagree with your statement about shot pictures and not being able to teach someone what you see. The physical parameters of a shot are clear, there is a very small finite space which the cue has to be in to have any chance of making the ball with a center ball hit. I know that as a system user yourself you know full well that you have a good tool to aid your eyes/brain to get to that finite space consistently.

You might not agree with what some other teacher of any similar method says about their method but you have to know that the technique at it's core has validity.

Deciding not to teach what you use is of course your right. No one can force you to help others. But slamming others who are teaching aiming methods is not productive for the sport in my opinion. Saying or insinuating that people just need to figure things out all by themselves is equally counterproductive.

Nothing in this world today that humans do is a result of figuring it out by themselves. Everyone has some instructive influences to some degree or other. Some starting points where they said ok, if this works what about that?

Hal Houle specifically asked me to pass on what he taught me. I tried to pay him for his time and he refused. He told me just to pass it on in person. He also told me not to talk about it on the internet and I clearly screwed that up.

The point is that of anyone finds something that works then I think they should share with others and not only confirm that the technique works but also give others something to build on and maybe those others improve on it or even create something different and better based on the core properties of the technique.

No one knows what the brain is capable of. You have always been cryptic on here such as your advice above about contact points and gearing. You say do x but don't describe how to go about learning how to do x.

Dr. Dave on the other hand goes into great detail when explaining a technique.

You like to demonstrate proficiency and we all agree that you are a good player. But without any explanation of what you are doing your videos are literally just footage of a good player pocketing balls. No different than watching a pro run racks. Not any more help than willie mosconi's advice, "don't miss".

So I guess we just have different ideas about human capability and human cooperation. I want to help people aim better even if I am not the most proficient player. I spend my time thinking about how to explain the techniques that I know, and that you know, work extremely well in ways that different individuals can use to arrive at the same understanding and implementation.

I naively hope that everyone here could be operating in that space but I am unfortunately disappointed to see that this is not the situation.
 
Sigh. When will you understand that nobody cares if a bank pool champion who has been banking for 60 years can bank balls with a curtain? It's like making wing shots. Fun to watch the skill required but a trick shot is what it is. Far more convincing for the cause of CTE is if a beginner who is proficient in CTE could also do this. Why can't you do this? Maybe Stan doesn't understand marketing. Ever see an infomercial where some 5 year old girl can open a jar of pickles by using some great gizmo they are selling? It's like that. Nobody cares if Andre the Giant can open the jar with the gizmo. It seems as if Stan is the only CTE user who can do the curtain bank trick.
When will you understand that a bank pool champion is likely to be far better at analyzing what techniques work best for banking?

As for saying nobody cares you're absolutely wrong about that. Clearly people care. I cared enough to think that perhaps there was something to cte based on those demonstrations and because of that I learned the technique and now bank better.

Stan is not the only one who can make shots where the pocket is blocked. You made a video attempting to debunk Stan's demonstrations and you made i think two or three shots and stated that Stan don't such amounted to a "trick"and shouldn't be taken seriously as a testimonial for the effectiveness of cte.

You did three shots with marked positions that you practiced until you figured out the objective aim, one a half ball and the other a quarter ball hit iirc and change and came to a conclusion. Stan has done thousands of such shots and a hundred or so on video unedited. Stan has made his shots from random placements.

When I was at stan's place I challenged him to do the curtain shots on demand and he did, in front of myself and Andreas Sattler from Germany. Andi had no idea about cte until I took him there and explained what it was and the controversy surrounding it.

Andi tried curtain shots aiming his way which was feel+experience and failed. Four days later after I had arranged for Andi to get a lesson in CTE he was making more of the curtain shots.

Stan doesn't need to do curtain shots to teach cte. This came about because Hal would frequently hold a ball tray blocking the ability to see the pocket while lining up and tell the shooter to go ahead and trust the line. And Hal's students would often make the shot. For Hal this was just to get the students to stop using the pocket as a visual guide.

Stan took it farther and built a curtain system that could be positioned anywhere on the table. He did this to challenge himself with Hal's instruction to focus on the connections between the balls instead of the pocket to object ball line.

No one else to my knowledge has built anything like it so when they do build blocking barriers they almost always fix them to the table and the set up is janky and inflexible. Thus most people do it for a bit and then dismantle it.

But the activity is absolutely not a party trick. You cannot achieve the same level of accuracy as I can if you are using feel. I might miss more than Stan, in fact I know I will, but I will make more than you.

Mohrt will make more than me. Gerry Williams will make more than me. Scott Rohleder will make more than me. There are dozens of cte users who are more skilled at using cte than me who will make more curtain shots than me.

The reason is because they are very diligent about following the process and know without any hesitation which visual perception to start with for the shot they face.



I plan to build something similar to what Stan did in order to be able to challenge the students in our training center. Even without cte aiming I think that there is something instructive there.

We tell people that if their stroke is good they can turn their head and make the ball. But we don't tell them that their aim must also be correct. We use that head-turn/eyes closed method to "test"their stroke but with a curtain we can test their aiming. We could let then aim and then block the ability to see the pocket and see how well they aimed.

As well this is a good way to test any aiming system. One would rightly assume I would hope, that an aiming system that allows a person to aim and pocket without ever using the pocket as a visual reference would be pretty strong. Especially if a before/after comparison could be made.

I plan to test players of all skill levels and collect data, with video for analysis. I will use the same shot making tests created by other instructors such as Dr. Dave to measure proficiency. These tests, with the right set up can be performed with the curtain blocking the pocket and without and with the user of ghost ball and with other methods. I am just curious what the data will show.

I do not think it will show what you claim in terms of anyone can do it and that's it's a "party trick" done by an already experienced player to fool viewers.

The curtain shots demonstrate the highest level of mastery of the Center to Edge method. When you can do them using CTE you have clearly achieved full mastery of the process.

If you can do them with any other technique as consistently as with CTE then that technique in my eyes would be as good as CTE. And I would welcome that. The more great tools available to us the better.
 
Here's your big chance. Unload some useful information on the actual CTE process.

pj
chgo
Sorry but you don't get to judge what is useful on this topic. We are all fully clear that you don't consider CTE to be valid and thus nothing ever said or demonstrated is considered useful. You barely acknowledge that the usage of two lines is helpful in the process of aiming.
 
It does matter. Because humans are not unique. While each of us is a unique mixture of cells/bacteria/neural network/physical agility we are far more alike than we are different.

We have a very similar set of physical tools to make our way through the world and handle tasks that we are faced with.

That commonality allows us to create mental techniques to assist in tasks that require making a decision to physically act. There is plenty of research that shows that such tools improve the results.

Take ghost ball. Extremely simple to show or describe the concept to another person. Any pool player has two states of being in their pool knowledge. Before they learned ghost ball and after.

So when you teach someone the ghost ball concept and you know that before teaching it their pocketing ability was x% and immediately after teaching them that ability increases by y% then it is a reasonable conclusion that the application of that mental technique to aim is responsible for the increase in pocketing ability.

I read a comment about you where you were thanked for helping someone understand 90/90. Maybe I misunderstood the comment but if true then it means you learned 90/90 and figured it out well enough to help someone else to figure it out.

The very fact that you learned 90/90 is a testament to the fact that concepts can be transferred. If the premise is to visually line up the right edges, put your cue on that line, pivot to center and that will be the shot line then it is unlikely that the average human with two functioning eyes and no debilitating handicap will be so far off that they won't figure out the correct visual+physical motion with trial and error and perhaps a little instruction.

Some people get it right away and others need a little extra but it is the commonality between humans that makes this possible. The uniqueness of how people think is what causes dissonance between instructions and implementation. Take the exact same instructions and some people get it immediately, some people need to think about it a little more, some people really struggle. Change the instructions and which people get it in what amount of time changes.

I often talk about teaching jumping with a jump cue. The myth is that jump cues make it so easy that anyone can jump immediately but this is absolutely not true. I have five years of experience teaching jumping at major shows that proves this myth wrong. I had to have about five different ways to explain the concept and stroke techniques because it became super clear at the first show that one approach was not going to work for all users.

I had at times four people jumping at the same time on the same table. I say this so that everyone understands that this was a major thing for me. We sold a couple hundred thousand dollars worth of jump cues in the first two years. But when I got into it I was adamant that I should be able to not only demonstrate proficiency but also teach techniques that the purchaser could learn before leaving the booth and use to improve their skill.

I had help from a couple folks who were with me at that time to develop several ways of teaching the skill. Once the shooter understood the concept and the physical motion they all resolved to the same approach to the shot and their success rates improved accordingly. But getting them to that point was sometimes easy and sometimes incredibly frustrating.

And I am not talking about bangers. I taught, and still teach, players at all levels. Sometimes I would get a pretty decent shooter who just couldn't seem to understand what I was describing and they would say that they cue was no good. I would stick with it and at since point a light bulb would go off and they would "get it" and their eyes would light up and the frustration would be gone and they would go from struggling to discovering the limits of what was possible. I can't really explain the feeling of accomplishment every time that happened.

If I had simply demonstrated it, took their money and said "happy jumping" I am sure that some of them would have given up in disgust thinking they had been sold a gimmick instead of an actual tool.

And in fact our case booth was next to a seller of jump cues at a couple of shows in the past several years and that seller was exactly the type who thought that those trying his cue were just too stupid to perform with his cue and frequently harangued the potential buyers if they didn't perform successful jump shots right away. He would grab the cue do a few shots and hand it back and if they still didn't get it he would shoo them away. It was the craziest thing listening to this with my experience.

After two days I couldn't stand it and I talked to him when there was a slow period and explained my experience and approach with jump cue sales. I taught him several ways to identify issues and how to overcome them. Within an hour the whole tenor at his booth changed and he went from pushy salesman to patient teacher and sales went up immediately. At the end of the day he thanked me and ever since when I saw him at a show he was having a good show.

So, respectfully, I do disagree with your statement about shot pictures and not being able to teach someone what you see. The physical parameters of a shot are clear, there is a very small finite space which the cue has to be in to have any chance of making the ball with a center ball hit. I know that as a system user yourself you know full well that you have a good tool to aid your eyes/brain to get to that finite space consistently.

You might not agree with what some other teacher of any similar method says about their method but you have to know that the technique at it's core has validity.

Deciding not to teach what you use is of course your right. No one can force you to help others. But slamming others who are teaching aiming methods is not productive for the sport in my opinion. Saying or insinuating that people just need to figure things out all by themselves is equally counterproductive.

Nothing in this world today that humans do is a result of figuring it out by themselves. Everyone has some instructive influences to some degree or other. Some starting points where they said ok, if this works what about that?

Hal Houle specifically asked me to pass on what he taught me. I tried to pay him for his time and he refused. He told me just to pass it on in person. He also told me not to talk about it on the internet and I clearly screwed that up.

The point is that of anyone finds something that works then I think they should share with others and not only confirm that the technique works but also give others something to build on and maybe those others improve on it or even create something different and better based on the core properties of the technique.

No one knows what the brain is capable of. You have always been cryptic on here such as your advice above about contact points and gearing. You say do x but don't describe how to go about learning how to do x.

Dr. Dave on the other hand goes into great detail when explaining a technique.

You like to demonstrate proficiency and we all agree that you are a good player. But without any explanation of what you are doing your videos are literally just footage of a good player pocketing balls. No different than watching a pro run racks. Not any more help than willie mosconi's advice, "don't miss".

So I guess we just have different ideas about human capability and human cooperation. I want to help people aim better even if I am not the most proficient player. I spend my time thinking about how to explain the techniques that I know, and that you know, work extremely well in ways that different individuals can use to arrive at the same understanding and implementation.

I naively hope that everyone here could be operating in that space but I am unfortunately disappointed to see that this is not the situation.
It's alright to have a different view on matters, it presents other possibilities.

How does one know the truth if they've not experienced it? Aiming is not a big deal, pocketing the ball is.👍
 
It doesn't matter what systems I use, you can't teach someone a perception of what the shot looks like to someone else. You can try to explain it but one must learn his own. It will always boil down to a certain look. The same shot with a different speed or spin will boil down to a certain look not like before. What I'm saying is center ball aiming is not the same as going outside the center aiming. To play good you must go away from trying connect the balls with most of your aiming methods, poor brain would explode.

You wanna up your game learn how to use the contact point and learn how to gear the balls. Long shots are done a certain way . (Easier to get a good shot picture ) Short shots a done a certain way. (Again Easier to see the shot picture.)
Watch how intently a pro focuses while shooting even mundane shots. There is a reason for that "focus." They are looking at the shot correctly and it's hard to do willy nilly. Sure, you can pocket a certain shot 8/10 times, but they do it 9/10 or 10/10 and get shape. :)
 
When will you understand that a bank pool champion is likely to be far better at analyzing what techniques work best for banking?
I think you know what I'm saying yet you pretend that it makes no sense.

As for saying nobody cares you're absolutely wrong about that. Clearly people care. I cared enough to think that perhaps there was something to cte based on those demonstrations and because of that I learned the technique and now bank better.
You bought into Stan's explanation of why his system works and you still do. That does not make him right.

Stan is not the only one who can make shots where the pocket is blocked. You made a video attempting to debunk Stan's demonstrations and you made i think two or three shots and stated that Stan don't such amounted to a "trick"and shouldn't be taken seriously as a testimonial for the effectiveness of cte.
The purpose of my video was made very clear. Stan was over hyping CTE and using curtain shots to "prove" how it works. My video was simply to show the newer and less informed players that there is nothing magical about pocketing balls through a curtain, and certainly should not be taken as proof of anything about CTE.

You did three shots with marked positions that you practiced until you figured out the objective aim, one a half ball and the other a quarter ball hit iirc and change and came to a conclusion. Stan has done thousands of such shots and a hundred or so on video unedited. Stan has made his shots from random placements.
Which makes him a poor example to prove to someone that CTE banks balls for you. I thought CTE takes you to a diferent pocket, or at least VERY close to it depending on the table if you choose the wrong perception. That implies that pocketing multi rail banks is no harder than a straight in shot. Just pick a different CTE perception and whack it, as Hal would say.


When I was at stan's place I challenged him to do the curtain shots on demand and he did, in front of myself and Andreas Sattler from Germany. Andi had no idea about cte until I took him there and explained what it was and the controversy surrounding it.
Yes, and if you were at Stan's house 20 years ago before he knew Hal he would have done it back then, too.

Andi tried curtain shots aiming his way which was feel+experience and failed. Four days later after I had arranged for Andi to get a lesson in CTE he was making more of the curtain shots.
So Andi made more banks after practicing them. OK.

Stan doesn't need to do curtain shots to teach cte. This came about because Hal would frequently hold a ball tray blocking the ability to see the pocket while lining up and tell the shooter to go ahead and trust the line. And Hal's students would often make the shot. For Hal this was just to get the students to stop using the pocket as a visual guide.

Stan took it farther and built a curtain system that could be positioned anywhere on the table. He did this to challenge himself with Hal's instruction to focus on the connections between the balls instead of the pocket to object ball line.

No one else to my knowledge has built anything like it so when they do build blocking barriers they almost always fix them to the table and the set up is janky and inflexible. Thus most people do it for a bit and then dismantle it.

But the activity is absolutely not a party trick. You cannot achieve the same level of accuracy as I can if you are using feel. I might miss more than Stan, in fact I know I will, but I will make more than you.
Says you.

Mohrt will make more than me. Gerry Williams will make more than me. Scott Rohleder will make more than me. There are dozens of cte users who are more skilled at using cte than me who will make more curtain shots than me.

The reason is because they are very diligent about following the process and know without any hesitation which visual perception to start with for the shot they face
With all due respect this is horse shit. The reason is they are very good players who have a good feel for the pocket. So you are saying after 20 years or whatever you simply don't know which perception to use and simply aren't able to execute the CTE steps?

.



I plan to build something similar to what Stan did in order to be able to challenge the students in our training center. Even without cte aiming I think that there is something instructive there.

We tell people that if their stroke is good they can turn their head and make the ball. But we don't tell them that their aim must also be correct. We use that head-turn/eyes closed method to "test"their stroke but with a curtain we can test their aiming. We could let then aim and then block the ability to see the pocket and see how well they aimed.

As well this is a good way to test any aiming system. One would rightly assume I would hope, that an aiming system that allows a person to aim and pocket without ever using the pocket as a visual reference would be pretty strong. Especially if a before/after comparison could be made.

I plan to test players of all skill levels and collect data, with video for analysis. I will use the same shot making tests created by other instructors such as Dr. Dave to measure proficiency. These tests, with the right set up can be performed with the curtain blocking the pocket and without and with the user of ghost ball and with other methods. I am just curious what the data will show.

I do not think it will show what you claim in terms of anyone can do it and that's it's a "party trick" done by an already experienced player to fool viewers.

The curtain shots demonstrate the highest level of mastery of the Center to Edge method. When you can do them using CTE you have clearly achieved full mastery of the process.

If you can do them with any other technique as consistently as with CTE then that technique in my eyes would be as good as CTE. And I would welcome that. The more great tools available to us the better.
I'm all for tests but I think you are kidding yourself if you are letting people look at the pocket and aim before dropping the curtain (unless you are testing for something else other than CTE). Here's a better test: Put the curtain up over half the table. Put the cb in a random place in the kitchen and then put the ob in a random place somewhere near the curtain maybe 1.5 diamonds from the cb. You tell the shooter which perception to use but don't tell them anything about the pocket or whether this is a bank shot or straight hit. See how close they come to the pocket. Do this 10 times and then remove the curtain and do 10 more shots. That's a better test. Your better players will probably score better because, like I said, they have a feel for where the pocket is based on the part of the table they can see. I suspect even the newbies will score better when they can see the pocket. It might be interesting.
 
Watch how intently a pro focuses while shooting even mundane shots. There is a reason for that "focus." They are looking at the shot correctly and it's hard to do willy nilly. Sure, you can pocket a certain shot 8/10 times, but they do it 9/10 or 10/10 and get shape. :)
Not sure what your point is. was I disagreeing with you about something?
 
It's alright to have a different view on matters, it presents other possibilities.

How does one know the truth if they've not experienced it? Aiming is not a big deal, pocketing the ball is.👍
What is the very first step on the way to pocketing a ball?
 
I thought that you and I had an understanding of how we were going to talk to each other. If you can't be bothered to be accurate in your criticism then is this an indication that you are resuming hostilities?

I think you know what I'm saying yet you pretend that it makes no sense.

No, not at all. I am countering your assertion and innuendo that Stan is LYING about CTE being great for banking and is ONLY making the curtain bank shots because of his banking experience. My explanation is far more likely, a bank pool expert is far more likely to be able to accurately evaluate the efficacy of any aiming method proposed for banking.

You bought into Stan's explanation of why his system works and you still do. That does not make him right.

No, I said I got interested in the efficacy of the system by seeing Stan bank balls without seeing the rails. Has nothing to to with BUYING INTO some description of HOW or WHY it works. I can go to the hardware store and see a hammer that is advertised with all kinds of bullet points about WHY it works better than other hammers and none of that is more powerful for me than a video demonstrating it working better than other hammers. If I buy it and it actually works better then I will say that. If it doesn't then I will add my experience and say it doesn't. If someone then says, did you read the instructions and I say no and they say go read the instructions and report back and I find that I was not using it properly and in fact it does work better then I will report that.

The purpose of my video was made very clear. Stan was over hyping CTE and using curtain shots to "prove" how it works. My video was simply to show the newer and less informed players that there is nothing magical about pocketing balls through a curtain, and certainly should not be taken as proof of anything about CTE.

Overhyping? The guy throws out balls at random and banks them one, two, three and four rails without seeing the target rails. Very very few people can do this with no curtain blocking the rails. There is no magic trick in play there. You try making ten banks in a row with a mix of one two and three railers with no curtain and report back. Then add a curtain and show us your results.

Which makes him a poor example to prove to someone that CTE banks balls for you. I thought CTE takes you to a diferent pocket, or at least VERY close to it depending on the table if you choose the wrong perception. That implies that pocketing multi rail banks is no harder than a straight in shot. Just pick a different CTE perception and whack it, as Hal would say.

Um, amazingly that is what happens a lot of the time. That's the crazy part. I still can't get over it and love it when I use CTE to aim banks and watch them split the pocket.

Yes, and if you were at Stan's house 20 years ago before he knew Hal he would have done it back then, too.

See, this is the kind of defamation that is extremely uncool. If you were ever at Stan's house you would be hard pressed to not understand how deeply he loves pool and teaching. With 100% certainty if you went to visit him and had any other conclusion then it would be just dishonest and malicious. If you think that this is all something that any bank pool player can do then pick your champion, Brumback, Daulton, Billy Thorpe, whomever and they can ALL get action on Stan's ten foot table with curtains blocking the rails. You know I like to put my money where my mouth is so I will bet up to $10,000 that Stan outbanks them in that format. The only condition is that they must not be on record anywhere saying that they use any ball to ball aiming system like CTE.

So Andi made more banks after practicing them. OK.

No, he made more banks after learning CTE and using that aim them.

Says you.

yes, says I who knows more about this, who knows Stan personally, and who knows CTE.

With all due respect this is horse shit. The reason is they are very good players who have a good feel for the pocket. So you are saying after 20 years or whatever you simply don't know which perception to use and simply aren't able to execute the CTE steps?

That's not what they say, so are you calling them liars? Do you know them better than they know themselves? As users of the CTE aiming method they are not under any obligation to do do any videos, say anything to anyone about CTE or otherwise share their knowledge and demonstrate their ability. You don't have to say with all due respect when you are going to follow it by telling me that people who have mastered a system better than me won't make balls better than me if they do a curtain exercise. And you show a complete lack of respect by throwing in the "after 20 years" crap. I have said dozens of times that I am NOT as diligent about mastering the process as others are. That's like me saying to you why can't you run 400 after 40 years of playing pool? You know as well as I do that someone really dedicated to practice and mastering techniques for two years can surpass many players who have been playing for 20 years.

If you were being respectful then you would already know that Stan's teaching in the form of free videos online, DVDS and now a book, started about 8 years ago.

I'm all for tests but I think you are kidding yourself if you are letting people look at the pocket and aim before dropping the curtain (unless you are testing for something else other than CTE).

I JUST SAID that it would be useful for testing for acuity in stroking. Please take the time to read what I said before responding.

Here's a better test: Put the curtain up over half the table. Put the cb in a random place in the kitchen and then put the ob in a random place somewhere near the curtain maybe 1.5 diamonds from the cb.

See, NOW you're being productive.

You tell the shooter which perception to use but don't tell them anything about the pocket or whether this is a bank shot or straight hit. See how close they come to the pocket.

Ok. That's a pretty good way to it. I will often set up a random shot and go through all the perceptions/sweeps to see where the cueball goes. I see no problem with such a test and it would be interesting to see what happens.

Do this 10 times and then remove the curtain and do 10 more shots. That's a better test. Your better players will probably score better because, like I said, they have a feel for where the pocket is based on the part of the table they can see. I suspect even the newbies will score better when they can see the pocket. It might be interesting.

Maybe, but if so can you explain how a person with a straight stroke ever misses by more than a fraction of a diamond? Nick Varner told me that he never missed a ball because of his stroke and only missed because he aimed wrong. He said this to me at the Fox and Hound in downtown Charlotte in 2008 at a party that was thrown in conjunction with the BCA expo as we were conversing about aiming in pool.

But yes, with a curtain setup it opens up all sorts of tests that can be done when you have a large enough pool of players/humans to draw from.
 
Back
Top