CTE Journey

[sixpack]

I guess I just don't get the challenge - but good luck with it.

pj
chgo

Where it gets interesting is when you realize that the pre-pivot point is the aim point if you are planning to use inside (on an outside pivot).

But not always exactly.

But enough that you think you can depend on it.

Until you miss a 4 inch shot because of it.



Then it's interesting and challenging all at once.

 

[cookie man]

Where it gets interesting is when you realize that the pre-pivot point is the aim point if you are planning to use inside (on an outside pivot).

But not always exactly.

But enough that you think you can depend on it.

Until you miss a 4 inch shot because of it.



Then it's interesting and challenging all at once.

Pool is challenging period.

 

[Dan White]

Pool is challenging period.

Absolutely, which is why I believe aiming systems of all kinds are really just training aids to get the player to the point where all the calculations and estimations are done automatically (subconsciously). Whatever method you use to get that cue down on the table in the right place, at that point a decision has to be made: Does this shot look right or not? That question can only be answered by a player who has put in the time to recognize when the shot is on and when it isn't. That's what many of us mean when we say we play by feel. No more complicated than that.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Absolutely, which is why I believe aiming systems of all kinds are really just training aids to get the player to the point where all the calculations and estimations are done automatically (subconsciously). Whatever method you use to get that cue down on the table in the right place, at that point a decision has to be made: Does this shot look right or not? That question can only be answered by a player who has put in the time to recognize when the shot is on and when it isn't. That's what many of us mean when we say we play by feel. No more complicated than that.

Yep, "I know it when I see it" is the essence of "feel". I think it's also, ironically, what system users experience as their system's "objective" solution - the better they get at knowing it when they see it, the more "objective" it seems. Maybe the difference is mostly semantic.

pj
chgo

 

[cookie man]

Absolutely, which is why I believe aiming systems of all kinds are really just training aids to get the player to the point where all the calculations and estimations are done automatically (subconsciously). Whatever method you use to get that cue down on the table in the right place, at that point a decision has to be made: Does this shot look right or not? That question can only be answered by a player who has put in the time to recognize when the shot is on and when it isn't. That's what many of us mean when we say we play by feel. No more complicated than that.

Opinions vary. as a aiming system user i disagree

 

[cookie man]

Yep, "I know it when I see it" is the essence of "feel". I think it's also, ironically, what system users experience as their system's "objective" solution - the better they get at knowing it when they see it, the more "objective" it seems. Maybe the difference is mostly semantic.

pj
chgo

Opinions vary. as a aiming system user i disagree completely.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Opinions vary. as a aiming system user i disagree completely.

And politely. Thanks.

pj
chgo

 

[cookie man]

And politely. Thanks.

pj
chgo

Hopefully we can leave this thread to Sacman now. Be nice for him to continue to share his journey.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Yep, "I know it when I see it" is the essence of "feel".

It can be when a player has to "look" for it and "search" for each shot.

I think it's also, ironically, what system users experience as their system's "objective" solution

Whether a system user "knows" where to look based on training or the "feel" player gets there by "searching" and "groping", the end result is always an "objective" solution. That is unless it's the incorrect solution.

- the better they get at knowing it when they see it, the more "objective" it seems. Maybe the difference is mostly semantic.

pj
chgo

What happened to your own "objective" solution of CONTACT POINTS and aiming by them? Do you have to guess and "feel" your way to it every time or does it JUMP OUT at you as you stated in an earlier post?


Learning to visualize the OB contact point has been the single most helpful thing I've done for my own aiming. I think it would help anybody's aiming, no matter what method they use, even if their method ignores the contact point. It's a powerful reference when used consciously, but also valuable just as "context info".

If you could choose to have the contact point be visible on the OB for every shot, would you? I think most players can, with practice.

pj
chgo


I hate to break the news to you but that's an "OBJECTIVE" SYSTEM you're using. But you already knew that.

Getting behind the OB on a direct line to the pocket will tell you exactly where the contact point is and lining up the CB to it properly takes all the guesswork and "feel" out if you're trained over a long period of time as a knowledgeable user exactly as you stated.

It's the same with all other proven aiming systems. You already knew that also. Please don't start waffling and changing gears to the "feel" version again.

No need for either of you two to answer. The debate (nice word for "WAR") has been going long enough.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Absolutely, which is why I believe aiming systems of all kinds are really just training aids to get the player to the point where all the calculations and estimations are done automatically (subconsciously). Whatever method you use to get that cue down on the table in the right place, at that point a decision has to be made: Does this shot look right or not? That question can only be answered by a player who has put in the time to recognize when the shot is on and when it isn't. That's what many of us mean when we say we play by feel. No more complicated than that.

When you're playing your favorite and most important game that's taken over your pool life which is hit the middle diamond on the end rail to come back and strike the tip of your cue at the head spot...is it all subconscious?

Or are you consciously lining up the tip of your cue very precisely and carefully at the dead center of the CB and AIMING it to the MIDDLE DIAMOND on the end rail which you can see each time you do it or is it subconscious feel? I don't have a clue how it could possibly be feel when it's as objectively visual as it can get.

How about your stroke? Is it automatic or are you thinking of certain "KEYS" to get it going along the perfect path you've found successful to make the accurate hit and rebound back to the tip of the cue?

I AGREE WITH COOKIE. THIS IS SACMAN'S THREAD. ALLOW HIM TO CONTINUE HIS POSTING OF THE JOURNEY. I'M SORRY SACMAN FOR ALLOWING MYSELF TO GET SUCKED IN AND GOING OFF ON ONE OF THE TANGENTS THAT DESTROY ALL AIMING THREADS. GUILTY AS CHARGED!

 

[chefjeff]

Absolutely, which is why I believe aiming systems of all kinds are really just training aids to get the player to the point where all the calculations and estimations are done automatically (subconsciously). Whatever method you use to get that cue down on the table in the right place, at that point a decision has to be made: Does this shot look right or not? That question can only be answered by a player who has put in the time to recognize when the shot is on and when it isn't. That's what many of us mean when we say we play by feel. No more complicated than that.

Don't say that. It's inaccurate, and as you know, leads to troubles.

You said a player gets to "the point where all the calculations and estimations are done automatically (subconsciously)." That's accurate, but incomplete. WHY can the mind do it automatically now when before (something happened), it couldn't do it? Because it overlearned the skill through learning how to do it by failing at it first, learning from those failures, improving, learning, repeating with failure and without failure....until the mind has overlearned the process so well that it now does it automatically.

Feel has little to nothing to do with it. It may feel right when aiming and that's real, but the HOW and WHY of it feeling right is the secret of aiming. In a nutshell: work.



Jeff Livingston

 

[lfigueroa]

Don't say that. It's inaccurate, and as you know, leads to troubles.

You said a player gets to "the point where all the calculations and estimations are done automatically (subconsciously)." That's accurate, but incomplete. WHY can the mind do it automatically now when before (something happened), it couldn't do it? Because it overlearned the skill through learning how to do it by failing at it first, learning from those failures, improving, learning, repeating with failure and without failure....until the mind has overlearned the process so well that it now does it automatically.

Feel has little to nothing to do with it. It may feel right when aiming and that's real, but the HOW and WHY of it feeling right is the secret of aiming. In a nutshell: work.



Jeff Livingston

I don't disagree with what you're saying about the mind learning from repetition and failure. But "feel" still has much to do with it.

Pool is not all science and physics and geometry. Pool is also art, and the blending by feel done on the final pool stroke is what separates the men from the boys. To become a strong player requires taking everything you know from the right and left sides of your brain, and all your accumulated muscle memory, and artfully applying small variances and nuances to make the OB and CB go where you want.

That's the inescapable "feel" part of it all.

Lou Figueroa

 

[chefjeff]

I don't disagree with what you're saying about the mind learning from repetition and failure. But "feel" still has much to do with it.

Pool is not all science and physics and geometry. Pool is also art, and the blending by feel done on the final pool stroke is what separates the men from the boys. To become a strong player requires taking everything you know from the right and left sides of your brain, and all your accumulated muscle memory, and artfully applying small variances and nuances to make the OB and CB go where you want.

That's the inescapable "feel" part of it all.

Lou Figueroa

I didn't diss the feel, I said it was incomplete to successful aiming and to understanding how aiming happens.

That's all.

I feel it when I've got it, for sure, and I suppose all players feel it when they got it. But getting it in the first place? There's the rub. The feeling comes after "getting it" and the getting it comes after the work. If one puts the feeling first, he ain't getting it...at least not for long and then the feeling, backed by nothing, is lost along with the match.

That's all. I'm claiming that it takes work and a lots of it to aim so successfully that it feels good and right and accurate.


Jeff Livingston

 

[sacman]

Hopefully we can leave this thread to Sacman now. Be nice for him to continue to share his journey.

I have yet to read a post regarding CTE without at least one (DW) chiming in to attempt to divert the intensions of the OP. .... initials are DW in case you didn't catch that. :wink:


CTE Learning Process As I've Experienced It:

1) Stan's DVD & YouTube instruction on how it's done (I've watched the DVD at least 3 times completely and some sections of it at least 10 times. I've watched Stan's YT videos several times and have converted some of the more lecture-based versions to MP3 to listen to during my commute.)

2) Practice and learn the precise aim-point adjustments and visual sweeps on the table at the pool hall beginning with the zero-angle shots and progressing to specific shot points as shown on many of his videos. Set up a perfectly straight tape line on my desk at home and practice the sweeps each day. Follow that with 100 straight strokes over that line each day. Tor Lowry gave me a great tip to always keep the thumb on the gripping hand pointed down. I have to say my stroke is much straighter as proof of pocketing some long shots with the cue on the rail and object ball 6-7 diamonds away.

3) Continue to memorize the key points of CTE as gleaned from the education sources and repeat the visualization/sweep exercises so that it becomes subconcious to a level that I can shift my focus more to cue ball control. This is starting to happen - very exciting!

- visual perceptions are 15/30/45 - 7 degree perception (1/8 ball) for straights that are closer than 12.5" apart and 60 degree perception for extreme cuts.

- mnemonic: INSIDE edge of cue ball (for ETA/B/C) is on INSIDE of the angle of the shot

- distance plays a huge part in choosing the correct visual.

- sweeps put you on the shot line with the cue tip pointing close to the object ball's contact point.

- the pivot point (fulcrum or "V" of the bridge hand) is on the shot line

- sweep accuracy: move your eyes first, then the body follows I never move my feet until I've identified the pivot point. Although - this is becoming more subconscious as I practice.

4) Doing the above leads to remembering what the move from ball address to full stance for a given alignment/sweep is.. Do this enough and the next time you go down on the table your subconsious tells you this "looks" ... or "feels" correct it is because of repetitive practice of objective aim points and specific sweep movements.

I hope this helps. There will undoubtedly be some corrections when Stan's Truth Series and book comes out. But this is to convey my journey and thus I ask for some leeway as I make discoveries and share them with the AZ community.

For the CTE pocketing drills that I do my shot percentage average is now 69%.

 

[Vorpal Cue]

Your journey mirrors my own. There's a lot to keep track of when you begin. Moving from a traditional aiming system to cte is like learning to use a manual transmission after driving an automatic all your life. With practice it becomes second nature and the individual steps merge into a smooth technique. Don't let the 'automatic drivers' discourage you, take their advice with a deer lick size grain of salt. They never made it out of first gear. You'll be able to burn rubber when you hit second after the final pieces fall into place.

One of the last things that helped me with the system was the placement of my left foot. (right handed stance) Placing it parallel with the shot line brought my hips into the same position, square to the shot line. I was inconsistent with my body alignment and I was missing some shots that I normally made.

Keep practicing, you'll be cruising at 80 soon.

 

[Dan White]

I have yet to read a post regarding CTE without at least one (DW) chiming in to attempt to divert the intensions of the OP. .... initials are DW in case you didn't catch that. :wink:

OK,OK. It would be nice if you reread this thread from the beginning. I posted what I thought was pretty useful information for you to consider. There are a lot of CTE experts saying conflicting things, so your confusion is not all on you.

I'd be happy to delete all my posts in this thread if you like, but you'll find that I don't have that many. Several others have posted here and taken things away from your journey.

I'll delete all my post if you want. I wonder if a certain guy who screams in red and blue and bold will do the same... you think? :wink:

 

[Patrick Johnson]

You said a player gets to "the point where all the calculations and estimations are done automatically (subconsciously)." That's accurate, but incomplete. WHY can the mind do it automatically now when before (something happened), it couldn't do it? Because it overlearned the skill through learning how to do it by failing at it first, learning from those failures, improving, learning, repeating with failure and without failure....until the mind has overlearned the process so well that it now does it automatically.

Your quote is incomplete. He said "...at that point a decision has to be made: Does this shot look right or not? That question can only be answered by a player who has put in the time to recognize when the shot is on and when it isn't".

pj
chgo

 

[cookie man]

recognize when the shot is on and when it isn't"[/U][/B][/COLOR].

pj
chgo

And do they do this by moving there head back and forth?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

And do they do this by moving there head back and forth?

Ironic, isn't it, that you're the most consistent complainer and the poster with the least substance in these CTE threads? Do you ever actually have anything to say?

pj
chgo

 

[cookie man]

Ironic, isn't it, that you're the most consistent complainer and the poster with the least substance in these CTE threads? Do you ever actually have anything to say?

pj
chgo

I just asked a simple question. Do you have an answer?