CTE/Pro One, the lesson.

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..."Shortly after getting started, Landon came into the pool room where Stan gives his lessons and we racked up some 9 ball. Landon broke the balls and proceeded, just as Stan had said the day before, to run several racks and telling me with each shot what aiming system he was using for that particular shot. Now this got me to thinking. On eight different shots after making a ball on the break, Landon was not using the same aiming system on every shot but what seemed to be the best system for a particular shot. Most of the time he was either using the CTE or quarter ball system. And the longer and more difficult the shot was, he most often chose the CTE method."....

Gramps

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No CTE on every shot?
Thanks.:wink:
 
This is for Humor Purposes Only :)

First, i just would like to point out that this is a joke that I thought all would enjoy. I'm only putting it in this thread because it is the only CTE thread active at this time...I hope you're OK with it Joey.


I finally found the detailed explaination of CTE from a class I attended so I thought I'd share:

Formula.jpg


Hope everyone enjoyed it. I have no dog in this hunt and I believe all systems have something to offer.

Love,

Dave
 
I finally found the detailed explaination of CTE from a class I attended so I thought I'd share:

Formula.jpg


Hope everyone enjoyed it. I have no dog in this hunt and I believe all systems have something to offer.

Love,

Dave


I think you read the equations wrong...that is clearly not CTE....That is BHE:rolleyes::wink:
 
First, i just would like to point out that this is a joke that I thought all would enjoy. I'm only putting it in this thread because it is the only CTE thread active at this time...I hope you're OK with it Joey.


I finally found the detailed explaination of CTE from a class I attended so I thought I'd share:

Formula.jpg


Hope everyone enjoyed it. I have no dog in this hunt and I believe all systems have something to offer.

Love,

Dave

That was FANTASTIC, Dave!
 
Today,
I rushed over to a neighboring city where I had last minute information about a tournament on some Diamond Bar Tables only to arrive after the tournament had already started. After a couple of minutes of hem and hawing the powers that be allowed me to play. I went for twenty bucks in the Calcutta and ten for entr fee amd ten for green fee and played my first match against a good player from Slidell. He whacked me 5-1. My next match was against a person who couldn't beat me on my worst day. He came out the gate strong with luck hanging from his fingers to his toes and had me 3-1. I broke the next game (alternating breaks) and was running out the rack when he walked away for a few minutes and came back to inform me that it was a race to 3 on the one loss side. :grin:

I buried my pride and went back to Metairie with my tail between my legs, where I ran into one of my regular opponents who was shooting light out. I normally give this person 8-7 but we were playing 9-7 because I just felt like playing and thought I could still win at that game. He beat me four games in a row and finally I won one game and he quit.

CTE/Pro One won't make you a winner every time you go to the post. :grin: Hell, it might not make you a winner at all.

My "high" got taken down a notch but I still feel confident about CTE/Pro One being of benefit to me. I promised to talk about banking but it won't be tonight. I'm tired and disgusted as I expect to win every time I play. :p :grin:

I'm a no playing dog and can't beat a GingerBread Man.
 
OK. Me too.


I didn't know this, and it surprises me. That's exactly the amount of time that I've played regularly - I thought you had been at it longer than me.


I won't argue with your statement; I'll just point out that the benefits you list above are also acknowledged by those same people.

The important thing is that they're benefits that any pool player could use, including me, and if CTE is your preferred way of getting them then it's certainly valuable.

Nice informative post, Joey, and good reading too.

pj
chgo

Patrick,
I've played pool a lot longer than 15 years. Prior to that, I just hustled pool in the bar rooms finally making my way into the real pool rooms in the 80's but still laying down, stealing anyone's money that I could get my hands on. It was probably early to mid 90's when I started trying to actually improve my pool game and quit watching who was walking in the door. People change and while I still enjoy gambling, it is far harder to win because I don't care who knows how I play. I just play now to see if I can get any better at the game. If I pick up a few dollars along the way, I do so. If not, I donate a few dollars.

I have noticed how much more I pay attention to the center of the cue ball. In the past, I just kind of got close to the center of the cue ball and looked at the shot and decided what English I needed to apply to make the shot and get shape. Now, I pay more attention to the center of the cue ball and it certainly seems that I can pocket balls a little better, just maybe not today. lol
 
Pretty sweet shot and she made it on the first attempt.

I intentionally edited the video to show that it was the first attempt even if it meant having Dieckman in the clip.

Steve

ps
sorry to hijack your thread Joey :sorry:

NP Steve, you get a free pass anytime.
:wink:
 
As you may gather from my handle (Gramps) I am a wonderful 62 years young and have been around pool for about the last 50 years. I have been lucky enough to have been around and seen most of the great masters of the game from Lassiter to Efren. I even played and was beaten by Johnny Archer when he was only 16 in a tournament. I've seen so many arguments on and about pool from who is the greatest players are or were to what's the best rules to play 9 ball with and weather jump cues should be legal or not. But to this day, I have not seen so much controversy as I've seen lately over something such as where should I hit this ball or as we are calling it, a aiming system.

A little background here. Years ago I sold a business in Charlotte, NC and decided to open or, as it turned out, buy a pool room in North Georgia. I was in my mid 30's at the time and felt like I was probably playing my best pool ever. Then at my wife's request, sold the pool room and went into another line of work for about the next twenty years. After getting a little tired of the working 14 hours a day, we decided to close shop and open another pool room. It didn't take long to find out that I hadn't forgotten what I knew about playing the game, but it was going to take a while to get the old stroke back. I knew there was just one small something missing from my stroke and didn't know exactly what it was. Being a friend of Stevie Moore and having talked to him a little, he suggested I contact Stan Shuffet and get with him for a refresher. I talked it over with my wife and unknown to me at the time, she contacted Stan and arranged a two day visit with him at his home as a Christmas gift to me.

OK, here I am a (at the time) a 58 year old man that thought I knew all there was to know about pool, getting ready to go take a pool lesson. So, I packed my bag and cue case and headed off to Kentucky. I met with Stan on the morning of the first day and told him that I thought that I just might have a small problem with my stroke. In a matter of about the next ten minutes, Stan had spotted my problem and had me hitting balls like I was 30 years old again. Now here I was, my only problem I thought I had was finally fixed, now what was I possibly going to do or learn in the next day and a half ? We went over some other basic fundamentals and position plays when Stan finally brought up aiming methods.

We went over a few aiming types starting with ghost ball, quarter ball, something Stan called Shis-Ka-Bob and finally got around to CTE (Center to Edge). At the time, that was the only name he had for CTE, know referred to as CTE / Pro One aiming system. We spent the most time on this new (to me) CTE and I have to admit, I was not getting it right away. Stan told me that this was not something that everyone took to right away and that it might take some time to get used to. Basically, he said, if it doesn't look right, then it probably isn't right. I was getting confused on, center of what to the edge of what ? And then there was a shift involved that I was totally confused about. Stan said, tomorrow, I'll have Landon (his at the time 14 year old son) come in and run a few racks of 9 ball and explain what aiming method he is using on each shot. I said sure, have your barely teen age son come in and run a few racks. I didn't actually say that out loud but was thinking it in my mind and very sarcastically I might add too. I should add that at that time, Stan did not have any written material or video available on the CTE system and was only explaining the system verbally.

The next day came and after a night of restless thinking about this new aiming thing in my motel room I headed back to Stan's for day two. Shortly after getting started, Landon came into the pool room where Stan gives his lessons and we racked up some 9 ball. Landon broke the balls and proceeded, just as Stan had said the day before, to run several racks and telling me with each shot what aiming system he was using for that particular shot. Now this got me to thinking. On eight different shots after making a ball on the break, Landon was not using the same aiming system on every shot but what seemed to be the best system for a particular shot. Most of the time he was either using the CTE or quarter ball system. And the longer and more difficult the shot was, he most often chose the CTE method.

I spent another night in Kentucky and headed home the next morning with about a half days drive ahead of me and was thinking most of the way about CTE. Was I losing my sanity ? Was I to old to learn new tricks ? I finally resigned myself to what Stan had told me in the lesson that it would not come to me until I kept trying it out and sooner or later, it would finally come to me.

When I got home I talked to a friend of mine that had taken Stan's course a month or so earlier and asked him if he understood CTE and he said, "if you ever get it, please explain it to me". Well, about a month or so later, I was just by myself in the poolroom and was practicing a few long difficult shots and stood up from the shot and it was like someone had turned on a light inside my head. There it was ! I now understand CTE. Stan was right ! It came to me like a bolt of lightning out of the sky. I got a pad and pen and wrote down a few notes. Then I got out my camera and took a few pictures of the shot I was looking at so I could make a later document that I could pass on to Stan on how I finally saw the shot.

I saw Stan and Landon at a tournament several months later and gave Stan the document I had written on the subject in hopes that there might be something in it that might help better explain how the system works. He thanked me and said it might help. I don't know if any of the information I gave him was helpful or not, but I have been able to explain it to some other players a lot easier now.

In conclusion, I just want to say that all aiming systems are not perfect for every shot as Landon demonstrated to me. Just as not all aiming systems are all right for every person using them. No matter what system you use, you still have to execute the shot properly or you will still miss. And as Joey has pointed out, this system has actually made me look more closely at how I do aim and has improved my shot making by a large percentage. At least its better to aim at those difficult shots and have a chance at making it and running out than it is to just swing, miss, and let the person your playing run out.

VERY NICE POST GRAMPS! Thanks for chiming in.
 
i'm interested in seeing mr. shuffet's video. i learned cte from hal houle. i believe it is an invaluable tool for any pool player. as it's almost as easy to sight the center of the cue ball to the edge of the object ball as it is to put one leg in front of the other to manufacture 'walking'. my primary interest in the video is to see if mr. shuffet can validate hal's claim that you can do the same thing (reversed for thin cuts) on every shot. in my empirical experience, and while casually thinking about the problem, this has not been the case.

you certainly can aim at the same place on every single shot, and, imo, this is the true value of the system. aiming via (visualization + x; where x is the players ability to visualize the gb/midpoint of the ghost ball, etc. and properly align himself) is more difficult, for me at least, than sighting/visualizing the center of the cue ball to the edge of the object ball.

in my experience you can not use the same pivot/initial offset for every shot. the reason why should be obvious. therefore whenever i play pool i have to gauge the shot beforehand. pockets in pool are rather generous and there truly are only a few shots in pool (see randy kukla's wonderful tome). i do believe that i can make most any shot on a pool table from just a few initial offsets.

again, in my experience, cte frees up the shooter to shoot unconsciously, which frees up a player to get into a relatively effortless stroke. just as you can't really stroke a ball well, if you are thinking about stroking a ball well when you do it; you also can't stroke a ball very well if you are thinking about aiming or have been thinking about aiming over the shot.

just my two cents, i am anxiously awaiting the dvd.

best.
 
..."Shortly after getting started, Landon came into the pool room where Stan gives his lessons and we racked up some 9 ball. Landon broke the balls and proceeded, just as Stan had said the day before, to run several racks and telling me with each shot what aiming system he was using for that particular shot. Now this got me to thinking. On eight different shots after making a ball on the break, Landon was not using the same aiming system on every shot but what seemed to be the best system for a particular shot. Most of the time he was either using the CTE or quarter ball system. And the longer and more difficult the shot was, he most often chose the CTE method."....

Gramps

-------------------------------------------------

No CTE on every shot?
Thanks.:wink:

No, now it's Pro One for every shot. I also had a lesson with Stan and Landon was running some racks while using Pro One on every shot, he would even explain what he'd see and the movements involved. Remember that Gramps lesson, as I read it was before Stan really developed Pro One and Stan also taught the quarters system. I assure you it's all Pro One now :cool::wink:
 
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No, now it's Pro One for every shot. I also had a lesson with Stan and Landon was running some racks while using Pro One on every shot, he would even explain what he'd see and the movements involved. Remember that Gramps lesson, as I read it was before Stan really developed Pro One and Stan also taught the quarters system. I assure you it's all Pro One now :cool::wink:

OK it's CTE/Pro One...all shots.:thumbup:
Thanks.
 
I have noticed how much more I pay attention to the center of the cue ball. In the past, I just kind of got close to the center of the cue ball and looked at the shot and decided what English I needed to apply to make the shot and get shape. Now, I pay more attention to the center of the cue ball and it certainly seems that I can pocket balls a little better, just maybe not today. lol
Your increased awareness of centerball has made you more aware of (and better at) exact tip placement for shots with and without spin?

pj
chgo
 
Today,
I rushed over to a neighboring city where I had last minute information about a tournament on some Diamond Bar Tables only to arrive after the tournament had already started. After a couple of minutes of hem and hawing the powers that be allowed me to play. I went for twenty bucks in the Calcutta and ten for entr fee amd ten for green fee and played my first match against a good player from Slidell. He whacked me 5-1. My next match was against a person who couldn't beat me on my worst day. He came out the gate strong with luck hanging from his fingers to his toes and had me 3-1. I broke the next game (alternating breaks) and was running out the rack when he walked away for a few minutes and came back to inform me that it was a race to 3 on the one loss side. :grin:

I buried my pride and went back to Metairie with my tail between my legs, where I ran into one of my regular opponents who was shooting light out. I normally give this person 8-7 but we were playing 9-7 because I just felt like playing and thought I could still win at that game. He beat me four games in a row and finally I won one game and he quit.

CTE/Pro One won't make you a winner every time you go to the post. :grin: Hell, it might not make you a winner at all.

My "high" got taken down a notch but I still feel confident about CTE/Pro One being of benefit to me. I promised to talk about banking but it won't be tonight. I'm tired and disgusted as I expect to win every time I play. :p :grin:

I'm a no playing dog and can't beat a GingerBread Man.

Joey,

Trust me and stick with Pro One, once you have the visuals down the movements will become fluid. This may take a little time but it will all become a natural part of your game.
 
Great thread Joey.. It's nice to see a civil discussion amongst members from our community.. Even though I had a Pro One lesson a while back, I'm still anxiously awaiting the DVD as well..
 
in my experience you can not use the same pivot/initial offset for every shot. the reason why should be obvious. therefore whenever i play pool i have to gauge the shot beforehand. pockets in pool are rather generous and there truly are only a few shots in pool (see randy kukla's wonderful tome). i do believe that i can make most any shot on a pool table from just a few initial offsets.
Excellent points. FYI, I have some diagrams that illustrate this here.

in my experience, cte frees up the shooter to shoot unconsciously, which frees up a player to get into a relatively effortless stroke. just as you can't really stroke a ball well, if you are thinking about stroking a ball well when you do it; you also can't stroke a ball very well if you are thinking about aiming or have been thinking about aiming over the shot.
Based on my understanding, what you describe is an important benefit of CTE. FYI, many other potential benefits are listed here.

Regards,
Dave
 
Your increased awareness of centerball has made you more aware of (and better at) exact tip placement for shots with and without spin?

pj
chgo

On shots that do not require side spin, I have pivoted to center and I pay more attention to where the center is, instead of "seeing" if my aim is correct. I trust that the pivot is going to bring me in line with the shot and bring the tip to the center of the cue ball. When I pivot, I look mostly at the cue ball, simply making sure I have the tip on the center of the cue ball.

On side spin shots, I either apply BHE (back hand English), don't pivot all the way to the center of the cue ball leaving enough spin to obtain the desired result or sometimes I simply use ProOne where I automatically set my hand and cue tip where I want to apply the English. I highly recommend people who decide to try CTE/Pro One to manually do the mechanical movements until they have a complete grasp of the system. This has worked well for me. It would have been far easier for me to move into the more fluid motion of ProOne but I may have missed something in the more mechanical motion of CTE/Pro One and I wanted to make absolutely certain that I was doing the steps correctly before going on to something far more fluid and "natural".

If I had gone quickly to the ProOne manner of playing you would never know that I was incorporating CTE/Pro One aiming. The movements in ProOne are subtle.

I think that the regular practice of using the mechanical movements helps me in many ways. I've heard from other users that they prefer the mechanical movements of CTE/ProOne (vs. fluid movements of Pro One) and I can understand their perspective.

I feel certain that I will move toward a more natural fluid motion of Pro One in the near future. I am actually concerned that I will lose the mechanical precision of CTE/ProOne by moving into Pro One entirely. Right now, I am happy to do the mechanical movements and occasionally fall into the more fluid movements every now and then.

Also, the mechanical movements give my mind something to occupy my time that kind of satisfies my impulses to do think about things outside of the game.

Look, I am still new at this and sometimes I don't know what I am thinking about or what I am doing at each specific stage of shooting unless I pay attention to that particular moment in time. For the most part, I can't even remember a shot in the last game, unless I missed it.

I am satisfied that CTE/Pro One is an ACCURATE method of aiming and shooting.

The things about CTE that I have seen in the past posted on web sites and internet forums is dissimilar from what I learned from Stan.

There is no subconscious adjustment that I make when using CTE/Pro One, EXCEPT the fine tuning that players like myself do when adjusting for throw, shape, etc.

I believe that Stan learned a LOT from Hal Houle but that he broke down CTE as taught by Hal Houle and discovered for himself the strengths and weaknesses of CTE and capitalized on the strengths and made adjustments for the shots that create problems for basic CTE/Pro One. The shots that require adjustments are few and far in between in my opinion.

The truth is that I kind of am holding back on going to Pro One. It's an individual thing I'm sure. Using Pro One is kind of like aiming ghostball, contact point to contact point or overlap aiming without really thinking about any of them. With all aiming systems, if you are making the ball and getting shape, you wind up at the same point but you already know that and most everyone else does too.

I believe that I could teach you CTE/Pro One quite easily. I know that you know certain things about CTE but you don't know CTE/Pro One at least from what I have read from your posts and neither does most of the other people who believe that CTE/ProOne is "silly" and the users are "delusional". Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not trying to get under any one's skin by referring to the problems of the past. I write the way I talk and the thoughts just flow. I don't write rough drafts for forums although I did once or twice and didn't like the way the word processor transribes the characters. :)

I genuinely believe that a lot of people will make a transition to Stan Shuffet's CTE/Pro One aiming system, especially if they take the time to learn it like I did and APPLY what you learned "religiously". :D

We'll just have to see if I am wrong or not. Advanced apologies to anyone who reads more into my posts than what I intended. These posts are simply MY experience and perspective.

I realize that my posts influence people and while I like Stan as a gentleman, family man and a teacher, if what he taught me didn't work well FOR ME, I wouldn't be posting it here on the forum.

I would have kept my mouth shut and just leave the talking to others who have discussed CTE in the past with both pros and cons if I hadn't learned what I learned from Stan.

I hope that others put for the effort to learn CTE/Pro One and that the video gets them over the hump but in my heart, I know that someone with my capabilities and understanding of aiming could learn CTE/Pro One quite easily. Applying and practicing what you learn is a different story.

I will go one step further and say that anyone can learn CTE/Pro One. I didn't learn it from a video. I learned it directly from Stan and I know I would have had some problems learning it from the video and may have gotten discouraged if I had just seen the video alone, because when you miss and you THINK you applied the correct principles, it takes someone who is experienced to go through the steps to "prove" that you took the correct steps. It's really not complicated like I may be making it out to be. When the video comes out there will be plenty of communication between users to iron out any wrinkles.

It's different but after you learn the vocabulary (which you already know) it's just a matter of learning the steps and implementing them and practicing it.
 
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Interesting developments

I gave my first bona fide CTE lesson to a close friend who plays at a high C level.

It was a disappointing lesson for me. I just knew this guy who is of above average intelligence and has played pool most of his life would take to this like a duck takes to water. He didn't. He struggled but promises to stick with it for a while. I showed him exactly what I was doing. I told him exactly what I was doing and he was unable to CONSISTENTLY make the shots that I effortlessly make using CTE/Pro One. He has an eye stigmatism but shoots relatively well but it is discouraging to say the least.

If I could not assist my friend with CTE/Pro One, I wonder what would happen to people who only have the video and do not have access to someone who is proficient using CTE/Pro One. They would certainly be disappointed.

I still stand by every single word that I expressed about CTE/Pro One. It isn't going to make you a great player but I am using it with great efficiency and I am still using it with great confidence. I did however have a match where my opponent was getting too much weight from me and the weight became uncomfortable and it affected my game. :frown:

It befuddles me that my friend could not execute the shots consistently. I wonder now if there is some visual perspective that allows some people to see the precision in the system but that some simply do not have the same visual capacity. I've got great vision but I am sure that that isn't the problem or the difference. I can only hope that others won't have the same problems that my friend has.

If he improves, I will report back. Heck, I will report back if he doesn't improve. :smile:

JoeyA (still using CTE/Pro One)
 
Joey,

Trust me and stick with Pro One, once you have the visuals down the movements will become fluid. This may take a little time but it will all become a natural part of your game.

I agree, I have been using this system Exclusively on every shot
for about a year or so. I have been through a lot of things I hear Joey talking about. Now there is no doubt in my mind about any shot angle.
Stay focused Joey, You will get to another level . My eyes are very bad, but I dont think it affects my game.
Most nights I am playing pretty close to perfect
 
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I gave my first bona fide CTE lesson to a close friend who plays at a high C level.

It was a disappointing lesson for me. I just knew this guy who is of above average intelligence and has played pool most of his life would take to this like a duck takes to water. He didn't. He struggled but promises to stick with it for a while. I showed him exactly what I was doing. I told him exactly what I was doing and he was unable to CONSISTENTLY make the shots that I effortlessly make using CTE/Pro One. He has an eye stigmatism but shoots relatively well but it is discouraging to say the least.

If I could not assist my friend with CTE/Pro One, I wonder what would happen to people who only have the video and do not have access to someone who is proficient using CTE/Pro One. They would certainly be disappointed.

I still stand by every single word that I expressed about CTE/Pro One. It isn't going to make you a great player but I am using it with great efficiency and I am still using it with great confidence. I did however have a match where my opponent was getting too much weight from me and the weight became uncomfortable and it affected my game. :frown:

It befuddles me that my friend could not execute the shots consistently. I wonder now if there is some visual perspective that allows some people to see the precision in the system but that some simply do not have the same visual capacity. I've got great vision but I am sure that that isn't the problem or the difference. I can only hope that others won't have the same problems that my friend has.

If he improves, I will report back. Heck, I will report back if he doesn't improve. :smile:

JoeyA (still using CTE/Pro One)


A few thoughts on your last two posts:

- When applying english with CTE/Pro1, pivoting shy of center or beyond center isn't a great way to use english. A BHE pivot and aiming pivot are likely different arcs. You should always, in my humble opinion, pivot to center to lock your aim in and then pivot with BHE (at the cue's pivot point) to apply your english. Sounds like a lot but it's not--- two distinct movements are required to be consistent.

- I think people who watch the video will 100% get the info correct. Applying the info is not a fault of the CD. I've found that MANY players THINK they're aligning a certain way (regarding a CB/OB orientation) but they're not. Analytical players will be able to make the required alignment adjustments to correct themselves, but a few might need someone standing there to tell them, "You're nowhere near your alignment line-- trust me. Move this way---"

- Perception errors paired with non-analytical players who can't self-diagnose will prevent someone from succeeding with this info. However, that holds true for ANY info, imo.

Dave
 
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