Cue Balance Point

I respectfully disagree Bob,

The weight distribution is important to both the feel and playability of the cue.

I had two cues from the same maker. Two sneaky petes weighted at 21 ounces. One had a 5 ounce weight bolt in it and the other one a 3 ounce weight bolt in it.

The cue with the 5oz weight bolt was unwieldy, almost uncontrollable. The other one felt normal and was easy to play with.

Another experiment I did was to take various weight bolts and tape them to various spots on the cue to see how the cue felt with weight at various spots.

Do this yourself if you think weight distribution does not matter. I found that the cue was very awkward of the weight was too far back or too far forward. For me. Other people obviously will have differing experiences.

I think that balance is one of the key characteristics that make up the hit of the cue, along with the sound. If the cue swings easily and sounds good then it is deemed to have a good hit.
 
JB Cases said:
... The weight distribution is important to both the feel and playability of the cue. ..
Click to expand...
I was not clear. When I said: "if you took two cues with the same weight and same balance point," I really did mean "with the same balance point." What I'm saying is that if you can achieve a particular balance point for a particular weight in two cues with different distributions of the same weight along the length -- but with the same balance point!!! -- and the cues are not visibly different, it will be hard for a player to tell the difference. Your examples almost certainly had different balance points.

This topic (technically, moment of inertia about a minor axis in a cue stick) was discussed fairly extensively in RSB, but maybe that was when you weren't reading it.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I was not clear. When I said: "if you took two cues with the same weight and same balance point," I really did mean "with the same balance point." What I'm saying is that if you can achieve a particular balance point for a particular weight in two cues with different distributions of the same weight along the length -- but with the same balance point!!! -- and the cues are not visibly different, it will be hard for a player to tell the difference. Your examples almost certainly had different balance points.

This topic (technically, moment of inertia about a minor axis in a cue stick) was discussed fairly extensively in RSB, but maybe that was when you weren't reading it.
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In that case I certainly agree with you then.

Thanks
 
The usual balance point is 18" from the back?! Isn't that quite backward balanced?

The reason I say this is, I have a 58" McDermott (which is known to be butt heavy, and it does feel that way) and it has a balance point of 18.5".
 
balance point too far forward...

what happens when the balance point is too far forward?

I like my balance point at 19" from the butt but my new cue is too fat in the butt end.

I'm thinking of making it thinner but this would move the balance point to 19.5 or 20"
 
Bob Jewett said:
I was not clear. When I said: "if you took two cues with the same weight and same balance point," I really did mean "with the same balance point." What I'm saying is that if you can achieve a particular balance point for a particular weight in two cues with different distributions of the same weight along the length -- but with the same balance point!!! -- and the cues are not visibly different, it will be hard for a player to tell the difference. Your examples almost certainly had different balance points.

This topic (technically, moment of inertia about a minor axis in a cue stick) was discussed fairly extensively in RSB, but maybe that was when you weren't reading it.
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That was in the good old days (1999), when we had Thomas Wayne and Steven Hegg to contend with...

I brought it up over there, and this is what I said -- for starters at least.

***************

So let's say you're building a 20 oz 60" cue and you've decided you want
the balance point 20" from the rear. The issue now is how to distribute
the mass. Forget joint-type, densities of materials, diameter, etc.
Let's suppose for the sake of argument you built the cue out of materials
with zero density, and that all 20 oz comes from lead you insert at
various locations. Where, consistent with the balance point, do you put
the lead? One possibility (a) is to put it all at the balance point.
Another (b) is to try to distribute it evenly. Another (c) is to put
some at the balance point, some at the back , and some at the front. And
still another possibility (d) is to put none at the balance point, and
split the mass between the back and the front.

What are the considerations? Why would one distribution be better than
another? The *only* two considerations *I* can think of are (1) squirt
and (2) feedback to the rear hand. Actually by "feedback," I mean moment
of inertia about the bridge hand, which translates to resistance to moving
off course, and more is better. I think this is what Ron Shepard calls
feedback to the rear hand, so that's what I'm calling it. [Because of squirt],
so we don't want mass [near] the tip. Let's suppose we can safely
put as much mass as we like 10 inches from the tip, and let's further
suppose that 10 inches is our typical bridge length.

So the squirt consideration just says don't put mass more forward than the
10 inch mark. The feedback consideration suggests we should maximize the
moment of inertia about the bridge hand.

(a) With all the mass at the balance point, the moment of inertia about
the bridge hand is 18,000 oz*in**2 [I = m* r**2 = 20 oz * (30 in)**2 ].

(b) With 10 oz at the balance point and 5 oz each twenty inches forward
and back, the moment of inertia is 22,000 oz*in**2, somewhat larger than
the first case.

(c) distributing the mass evenly 0.5 oz per inch for 20 in either side of
the balance point gives a moment of inertia of 20,666 oz*in**2.

(d) But case (d) is the one that maximizes the moment of inertia. Put 12
oz at the butt cap and 8 oz right at the bridge hand. Then the moment of
inertia is 30,000 oz*in**2!

Now a sideways stroke imperfection (sideways force) that would produce a
1.0 degree deviation in the alignment of the stick at contact for case (c)
would produce the following deviations for the various weight
distributions.

case deviation
____ ____________
(a) 1.15 degrees
(b) 0.94 degrees
(c) 1.00 degrees
(d) 0.69 degrees

so (d) is the most stable

These come from T =I*a

T= torque about the bridge hand, which for a given grip position is
proportional to the force

I = moment of inertia

a = angular acceleration (the alignment screwup is proportional to this)

So, until someone comes up with other legitimate considerations, I will
maintain that (d) is the optimum weight distribution.
 
catscradle said:
In my experience, I've never seen the thread hole for weight bolts extend beyond the butt sleeve into the handle. Don't forget the butt of your cue is generally 3 pieces forearm, handle, and butt sleeve. You've got to attach the butt sleeve to the handle somehow. With the threaded hole extending down into the handle, I would think the connection between the buttsleeve and handle would become precarious.
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Esp. if they were 5/8" in diameter...
 
mikepage said:
[massive snippage here]

(a) With all the mass at the balance point, the moment of inertia about
the bridge hand is 18,000 oz*in**2 [I = m* r**2 = 20 oz * (30 in)**2 ].

(b) With 10 oz at the balance point and 5 oz each twenty inches forward
and back, the moment of inertia is 22,000 oz*in**2, somewhat larger than
the first case.

(c) distributing the mass evenly 0.5 oz per inch for 20 in either side of
the balance point gives a moment of inertia of 20,666 oz*in**2.

(d) But case (d) is the one that maximizes the moment of inertia. Put 12
oz at the butt cap and 8 oz right at the bridge hand. Then the moment of
inertia is 30,000 oz*in**2!

[more snippage here]
Click to expand...

I think I speak for all of us when I say, "Huh?"

Seriously, though...

Am I right that your optimum distribution is designed to have as much weight at the butt as possible, which is accomplished by pushing all of the remaining weight up to the bridge (for maximum effect from minimum front weight)?

Would each weight distribution above feel different? I.e., if instead of our hands we put the cue on two scales at the same grip and bridge positions, would they register different weights for each of your distributions?

pj
chgo
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
I think I speak for all of us when I say, "Huh?"

Seriously, though...

Am I right that your optimum distribution is designed to have as much weight at the butt as possible, which is accomplished by pushing all of the remaining weight up to the bridge (for maximum effect from minimum front weight)?

Would each weight distribution above feel different? I.e., if instead of our hands we put the cue on two scales at the same grip and bridge positions, would they register different weights for each of your distributions?

pj
chgo
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No. As Bob points out, they would feel exactly the same holding the cue in the set position.

And they would feel exactly the same executing a perfect piston stroke.

Where they would feel different is if you have small tendencies to swoop during your stroke. You would feel different amounts of resistance to these sideways motions.
 
Mike:
...they would feel exactly the same holding the cue in the set position.
Click to expand...

So the "balance feel" of the cue is entirely determined by the balance point, and the "moment of inertia" goal is to concentrate the rear weight as far back as possible, which is accomplished by concentrating the front weight as far forward as possible (but no farther than the bridge to avoid increasing squirt)? This sounds like valuable stuff for cuemakers to know. It also sounds like cues are basically made this way now - weight bolts at the butt and pro tapers at the front.

pj
chgo
 
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But with a more forward balance point, does the tip dive faster through the stroke? Or is this something I just think I feel?

Jeff
 
bluepepper said:
But with a more forward balance point, does the tip dive faster through the stroke? Or is this something I just think I feel?

Jeff
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I don't think it will. If it does, I think it has more to do with the pecularities of your stroke than with balance point. Given how far forward of the BP the bridge (the fulcrum point) is, I see very little reason why 1 or 2 '' in the location of the balance point will effect what is going on at the tip. I think the effect of the balance point has more to do with a person's comfort factor than it does anything else.
 
mrinsatiable said:
what happens when the balance point is too far forward?

I like my balance point at 19" from the butt but my new cue is too fat in the butt end.

I'm thinking of making it thinner but this would move the balance point to 19.5 or 20"
Click to expand...

My wife has a Scruggs and a Pechauer with 20.5" balance point. What happens? - you probably will love it.
 
bluepepper said:
But with a more forward balance point, does the tip dive faster through the stroke? Or is this something I just think I feel?

Jeff
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Mental.
If you are not deathgripping the cue and it just craddles between your bridge and hold fingers , level, it won't make a difference if it 18.5 or 22 imo.
 
TheBook said:
Changing the weight bolts will also affect more than the balance point. A cue's weight and feel is more than just the final weight and balance point. Take a bar that is 60" (5 ft) long and weights 25 lbs or 5 lbs per ft evenly distributed. The balance point is at 30" from either end. Now take a bar that is also 60" that weighs 5 lbs and add 10 weights to each end. This also weights 25 lbs and has a balance point at 30".

Which one would feel better if you moved your hand 6 inches behind the balance point? Two cues with the same balance point and weight are not always equal.
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This is spot on and exactly what I've experienced.

I like playing with very light cues (17.8-18.0oz) that balance around 18.5-19.0". I had 2 x 4.1oz shafts. To get the specs I was looking for, I needed a really light butt and .5oz weight bolt to pull the weight back. It met my normal specs but didn't feel right. I moved on to another setup with lighter shafts (~3.6oz) and a naturally heavier butt. Even though the final balance point and weight were identical, the second setup felt much better balanced.
 
To Mr. Wheat..................

WheatCues said:
Hello, I'm a professional custom cuemaker and I just wanted to put my 2 cents worth in regarding balance point....

Unless the balance point is relatively close to your hand than it's irrelevant and because we all have different stroke lengths and armspands due to our unique stances and style of play ther is absolutely no way in hell a typical built cue with an average balance point is correct or suitable for everyone...

So in order to measure the correct balance point, you must first measure your armspand and where you typically grip the cue for your average shot, and that is your balance point and then you have to determine a minimal of 6 ounces of forward weight just to compensate for upward deflection when stroking the cueball with top english...FYI: 6oz. is how much the red multi-dotted abortion of a cueball weighs"


This is where engineering and experience come into the equation and why custom built cues is a necessity in this industry for any serious player or simply for those who want to improve their game on any level !


If you have any questions please call me anytime ! 321-631-1827



Sincerely, Eddie Wheat- East Coast Cue Repair / WheatCues
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Dear Mr. Wheat, As you know I have critized some of your past posts for your angrandizement and boosting of your cue making ability. However this post is one of the most intelligent, clear thought out posts on this subject that has been posted by anyone. IMHO thanks for the info.and input.


You're also right to withhold some info. as not to give your approach to this part of the cue making process to anyone that happens along to read it. The details of this process should be discussed with you clients only.
 
Dawgie said:
Dear Mr. Wheat, As you know I have critized some of your past posts for your angrandizement and boosting of your cue making ability. However this post is one of the most intelligent, clear thought out posts on this subject that has been posted by anyone. IMHO thanks for the info.and input.


You're also right to withhold some info. as not to give your approach to this part of the cue making process to anyone that happens along to read it. The details of this process should be discussed with you clients only.
Click to expand...


Thank You !

I try to be as upfront and open as possible......



- Eddie Wheat
 
I was at the DCC talking with Mark Tad, who obviously plays 100 times better than me, we were talking about how the cue when you hit the CB and he likes a cue that goes through the CB right when it hits the CB. Thats what I like(he just expressed it better than I could). anyways we were talking about one cue a top player uses, Mark summed it up best it hits light in the middle of the stroke, you can feel the cue struggle to go into the CB before and after the hit the cue feels fine, its just at the middle it feel light to us the moment of impact, please dont think for a minute I have dillusions I play like mark but our stroke is similar, its possible to be a weaker player and have a similar style, the owner(who will forever remain nameless) has a longer stroke, I asked him if it "felt light in the middle" he replied "hell I dont know" he never misses so it dosent matter to him, different strokes different folks.


so my question is this seems to change during the course of a stroke, because that cue does feel light in the middle(could it be the balance point), I have played alot with the cue were talking about and man I cant make a ball with it, I like a cue that feels lighter up top and gets heavier through the stroke and lightens up at the end-Mark Tad agreed. Heavy in the middle of the stroke.

So my question to Mr. Wheat is what the hell am I talking about :confused: , the cue I currently use is a 19oz cue that feels closer to 20, i'm not a banger and have played with custom cues for years not the weight bolt stuff I out grew that after 18 months of playing, thus my experience is up to par, but until Mark said "light in the middle" I hadnt thought of it like that.


there has to be a coorlation to balance point here, I have another custom cue a Gus Szam that Jay Helfert loves but for mee its ass heavy and gets lighter and lighter as the stroke starts and is light at the end. There must be a coorlation between the balance point and (weight of the feel of the stroke from top to bottom) any here know what i'm talking about. Mark did he called it to my attention, remember the Budweiser Cue pic I took of him at the DCC, that was a good cue under cover, thats when we talked about this, I just forgot to post it. that cue went through the ball, you could feel it nicely on the handle too, Bushkas, Szams, SW, Sugartree, Ginacurs all feel similar that way, .....WHY

there has to be something to this

thanks in advance

Fatboy
 
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Fatboy said:
I was at the DCC talking with Mark Tad, who obviously plays 100 times better than me, we were talking about how the cue when you hit the CB and he likes a cue that goes through the CB right when it hits the CB. Thats what I like(he just expressed it better than I could). anyways we were talking about one cue a top player uses, Mark summed it up best it hits light in the middle of the stroke, you can feel the cue struggle to go into the CB before and after the hit the cue feels fine, its just at the middle it feel light to us the moment of impact, please dont think for a minute I have dillusions I play like mark but our stroke is similar, its possible to be a weaker player and have a similar style, the owner(who will forever remain nameless) has a longer stroke, I asked him if it "felt light in the middle" he replied "hell I dont know" he never misses so it dosent matter to him, different strokes different folks.


so my question is this seems to change during the course of a stroke, because that cue does feel light in the middle(could it be the balance point), I have played alot with the cue were talking about and man I cant make a ball with it, I like a cue that feels lighter up top and gets heavier through the stroke and lightens up at the end-Mark Tad agreed. Heavy in the middle of the stroke.

So my question to Mr. Wheat is what the hell am I talking about :confused: , the cue I currently use is a 19oz cue that feels closer to 20, i'm not a banger and have played with custom cues for years not the weight bolt stuff I out grew that after 18 months of playing, thus my experience is up to par, but until Mark said "light in the middle" I hadnt thought of it like that.


there has to be a coorlation to balance point here, I have another custom cue a Gus Szam that Jay Helfert loves but for mee its ass heavy and gets lighter and lighter as the stroke starts and is light at the end. There must be a coorlation between the balance point and (weight of the feel of the stroke from top to bottom) any here know what i'm talking about. Mark did he called it to my attention, remember the Budweiser Cue pic I took of him at the DCC, that was a good cue under cover, thats when we talked about this, I just forgot to post it. that cue went through the ball, you could feel it nicely on the handle too, Bushkas, Szams, SW, Sugartree, Ginacurs all feel similar that way, .....WHY

there has to be something to this

thanks in advance

Fatboy
Click to expand...

Fatboy,

To answer your question and if I follow you correctly you are talking about the point during the the follow-through stroke is where the cue actually feels like its much lighter than any other time you are holding it, almost to the point where it feels like you have no control over it...

That my friend is a balance point issue due to your unique stroke and armspand requirements that the cue can't resolve... and also mabey an incorrectly average balanced cue....

If you have to choose between an improperly balanced cue or one that's averaged out. it's better to have more forward than rearward weight due to the neccessity of follow through.....

When you hold a properly balanced cue it should feel slightly forward weighted but not too light, there should still be enough forward balance to it and feel very comfortable at the same time !

typically a cue feels atleast 1 to 1 1/2 ounces lighter when holding horizontal at the the wrap than when held vertical.. the same rules apply when you grip it and bridge... if you notice a control issue or "skipping" off the cueball during the executed stroke than that should directly tell you the cue is not right for you....

It is mandatory that the cue does not change it's feel during the executed stroke and more importantly it doesnt lose it's point of reference on the cueball during follow-through....

I hope this is what you are referring to... please let me know if this clarifies Mark's reference !



Sincerely, Eddie Wheat
 
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