Cue ball and object ball touching (frozen) rule change?

[Slider]

It all depends on who's watching the shot...

The only way to legally execute a straight on shot or a very slight angle cut would be to elevate the cue at 90 degrees and shoot down at the CB (properly executed will draw the CB backwards avoiding the double hit). If the CB follows OB in a straight line, or even stays at the same place, then it's foul.

I agree, however...

A few years ago I was faced with a cue ball and object ball that were about 3/4 inch apart. (in USPPA Texas Express 9-ball) We called the TD to watch the shot. My plan was to do the elevated draw shot and play a safety, backing the cue ball up against the head rail (about a foot away) and moving the OB to the other end of the table. I attempted the very shot you describe. Instead of getting draw, the cue ball jumped up on top of the object ball, and ended up going past it. It was obviously not a double hit, however since the only part of the rules the TD knew was the part where the subsequent action of the cue ball is used as an indicator of whether or not a double hit had occurred, a foul was called.

I took the foul, but was inwardly more than a little disappointed that the TD chose to disregard what he actually saw, and instead, used a section of the rule that is (my interpretation) intended as a general guideline to be used when no one watched the shot that closely.

I only mention this because the effectiveness of any rule regarding object balls in close proximity to the cue ball is going to be highly dependent on the sophistication of the referee. I say sophistication instead of knowledge and experience, because the TD had more than enough of the latter two.

Ken

 

[gulfportdoc]

There is no rule at pool that will work if shooting into a frozen ball is changed to a foul. Prove me wrong by proposing a rule that will work. I say you can't.

I agree, Bob. The rule should remain as it stands. The conflict is based on a misunderstanding of what constitutes a "push shot". A push shot occurs only with a double hit-- including a sustained contact of the cuetip on the cueball, such as in the old trick shot where a frozen object ball is forced laterally into the corner pocket by pushing through the cueball. Shooting directly into the cueball frozen to another does not have to result in a double hit, which is amply demonstrated in the super slo-mo videos.

Doc

 

[jay helfert]

Better wording would be simply:

It is a foul to play a push shot or a double hit.

But that is more or less the same as the present rule, since it is a foul to play a push shot and it is a foul to play a double hit. The current rule is more verbose than the above, however, since it tries to define both of those situations.

Maybe you want to redefine "push shot" in which case you need to add a definition. As I've stated before, your use of the term is different from the present rule book.

Your rule doesn't give any hint as to what's permitted or required when the cue ball freezes to the lowest object ball at nine ball.

The same rule would apply in Nine Ball. I like your simpler wording, although an official would probably have to make the call.

The problem remains what constitutes a push shot. I continue to believe that shooting directly thru an object ball with the Cue Ball frozen to it, is such a shot. What is the difference if the Cue Ball and object ball are a mere fraction of an inch apart? It amounts to much the same shot. Would you then allow the player to shoot directly through these two balls as well?

 

[Bob Jewett]

I'll point it out again, Jay:

Your rule doesn't give any hint as to what's permitted or required when the cue ball freezes to the lowest object ball at nine ball.


You need to fix that before your rule can be considered viable.

 

[jay helfert]

I'll point it out again, Jay:

Your rule doesn't give any hint as to what's permitted or required when the cue ball freezes to the lowest object ball at nine ball.


You need to fix that before your rule can be considered viable.

How about "It is a foul to play a push shot or a double hit".

Once again, I like your wording Bob. So simple, even a cave man could understand it.

 

[Bob Jewett]

...
Should the rule at pool be changed? If so, what should it be changed to? Is there a single rule that will work for 14.1, nine ball, eight ball and one pocket?

I just got a response from a TD/official from some other continent who proposes that if the cue ball is frozen to the object ball, the player should be required to shoot away from the ball, and in addition, the player should not get credit for having hit the ball.

At nine ball, if the cue freezes to the one ball, you have to kick at the one (or play a masse shot away and back and then get a cushion). At straight pool, if you are frozen to the side of the nearly full rack, you can't play the typical thin hit to a far cushion for a safety. At one pocket, where perhaps the most frozen ball situations occur, you will probably have to kick at something. Also at one pocket, it would be a good safe to leave the cue ball frozen to an object ball in the jaws of your opponent's pocket since he wouldn't be able to shoot directly at it.

I'm not saying that all this would be a disaster, but it would certainly be different.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Should the rule at pool be changed? If so, what should it be changed to? Is there a single rule that will work for 14.1, nine ball, eight ball and one pocket?

Hi Bob,
There is also the game of English Black Ball (2-shot 8-ball) where a player can shoot into the balls in a direct line (incurring a double hit) when the balls are not touching, so long as the stroke is done in one movement....ie. You can't decellerate, then accellerate or try to steer the balls.

Having played several games, I find this rule works best. In fact, I would extend it to be legal for touching balls as it is in US pool.

4 reasons come to mind:
1. It is quite intuitive for beginners to want to hit through balls that they are close to, hence such rules make sense to them.
2. Very few arguments can arise and easy to referee.
3. It brings in a new set of creative skills for players to develop and gives them more options at the table.
4. It generally provides a fairer outcome after an unlucky positional shot.

Colin

 

[Bob Jewett]

... where a player can shoot into the balls in a direct line (incurring a double hit) when the balls are not touching, so long as the stroke is done in one movement....ie. You can't decellerate, then accellerate or try to steer the balls....

Is it permitted to do this when the cue ball is six inches from the object ball? Suppose the cue ball is close to the side of a nearly-solid rack. Are you permitted to shoot towards the rack with a break-shot stroke? (Provided your stick doesn't hit any object balls, of course.) Is there any limit to the number of times you can hit the cue ball provided it is done with one forward stroke (no hiccupping or reaccelerating allowed, as you said).