Cue ball control on cut shots

justadub

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
This is the area that I need major improvement on, ASAP. (Along with everything else, of course. :p )

I've been making a bit of progress overall in my play, though very small amounts in the scope of where I need to be. Consistency (or the lack thereof) is the biggest stumbling block, and that's to be expected. Especially given my lack of time to really practice, as much as I would like to.

The area that I'd like to concentrate on the most right now is cue ball control on cut shots, to better get to the zone that I need to be for the next shot. Especially when hitting the ball firmer.

I feel that I do OK with softer shots for position sake, but it has been pointed out to me, often (Hi, Tim!) that I need to hit the ball more firmly, and in many cases I believe that to be true. Especially playing 9-ball on the 9-footer. Doing so has been a work in progress, with mixed results. Too often I find myself using too much arm motion when trying to hit it "hard", especially on long shots (on 9-foot tables), trying for two and/or three rails to get position. It's subconscious, and will only get better with focused practice.

It's the ability to hit the ball "firmer" on medium to shorter shots that require a cut, and controlling the cue ball where I need specific suggestions. Stop/stun eludes me, due to the takeoff angle.

Here are my disclaimers, to save everyone time and effort. Most of the regulars here realize this, but I truly know that I need to practice more, and focused practice at that. I know that I should see an instructor, and someday I hope to. You don't need to tell me that again. :) I am simply looking for specific suggestions on stop/stun for position with cut shots, and/or other suggestions for better cue ball control with such shots.

As always, my thanks to you all, it is greatly appreciated. And extremely helpful!
 
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justadub said:
This is the area that I need major improvement on, ASAP. (Along with everything else, of course. :p )

I've been making a bit of progress overall in my play, though very small amounts in the scope of where I need to be. Consistency (or the lack thereof) is the biggest stumbling block, and that's to be expected. Especially given my lack of time to really practice, as much as I would like to.

The area that I'd like to concentrate on the most right now is cue ball control on cut shots, to better get to the zone that I need to be for the next shot. Especially when hitting the ball firmer.

I feel that I do OK with softer shots for position sake, but it has been pointed out to me, often (Hi, Tim!) that I need to hit the ball more firmly, and in many cases I believe that to be true. Especially playing 9-ball on the 9-footer. Doing so has been a work in progress, with mixed results. Too often I find myself using too much arm motion when trying to hit it "hard", especially on long shots (on 9-foot tables), trying for two and/or three rails to get position. It's subconscious, and will only get better with focused practice.

It's the ability to hit the ball "firmer" on medium to shorter shots that require a cut, and controlling the cue ball where I need specific suggestions. Stop/stun eludes me, due to the takeoff angle.

Here are my disclaimers, to save everyone time and effort. Most of the regulars here realize this, but I truly know that I need to practice more, and focused practice at that. I know that I should see an instructor, and someday I hope to. You don't need to tell me that again. :) I am simply looking for specific suggestions on stop/stun for position with cut shots, and/or other suggestions for better cue ball control with such shots.

As always, my thanks to you all, it is greatly appreciated. And extremely helpful!
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What's happening when you shoot those shots? Are you missing the shots? Are you way off in position? Can you be more specific?
 
FranCrimi said:
What's happening when you shoot those shots? Are you missing the shots? Are you way off in position? Can you be more specific?
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, my request was rather vague, especially given how long winded it was....:p

I'm afraid its a little bit of all them. The misses I'm not concerning myself with directly, for the purposes of this thread. I usually can determine why the miss occurred.

It's far more about being able to play position off of a shorter cut shot. Stop and stun in particular, as opposed to using a rail. Keeping the cue ball relatively close to the object ball that was just pocketed, obviously drifting some due to the cut. I'm probably referring to cut shots into a side pocket more specifically. Trying to maintain position in the center sections of the table.

I will admit that CJ's "pinning" discussion peaked my interested, but I'm afraid my stroke isn't nearly consistent enough to even dream of trying to learn that type of technique. Still, I'm sure that there are tendencies that I can use to get me into the general area.

I will watch those videos that linked above, when I get home later. This is quick fly by on a break at work...

Thanks again. I hope that's a bit clearer.
 
justadub said:
I'm sorry, my request was rather vague, especially given how long winded it was....:p

I'm afraid its a little bit of all them. The misses I'm not concerning myself with directly, for the purposes of this thread. I usually can determine why the miss occurred.

It's far more about being able to play position off of a shorter cut shot. Stop and stun in particular, as opposed to using a rail. Keeping the cue ball relatively close to the object ball that was just pocketed, obviously drifting some due to the cut. I'm probably referring to cut shots into a side pocket more specifically. Trying to maintain position in the center sections of the table.

I will admit that CJ's "pinning" discussion peaked my interested, but I'm afraid my stroke isn't nearly consistent enough to even dream of trying to learn that type of technique. Still, I'm sure that there are tendencies that I can use to get me into the general area.

I will watch those videos that linked above, when I get home later. This is quick fly by on a break at work...

Thanks again. I hope that's a bit clearer.
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Well, in some cases, you may not be able to hold the cb if there is too much angle. When you're first learning this stuff, it's hard, because you don't know whether or not it's you or just the angle of the shot.

Here are some things you can try: Shorten up your stroke on those shots. Shortening your bridge length will help you shorten your stroke if you prefer to bring your cue all the way back to your hand rather than take a half-back stroke. Either way works. I prefer to shorten my bridge length on those types of shots.

You can also try hitting the cb lower and slightly softer, but not too soft. You don't want it turning into normal roll too early. If you're trying to hold the cb, then you probably want it to be sliding at impact, but not with too much force behind it. Backspin will allow you to hit it softer. If you execute the shot properly, the cb can slide as much as 4-6 inches on it's way to the ob once the backspin wears off. That gives you a 4-6 inch margin for error in judgement.

But remember, once the angle gets too large, you won't be able to hold the ball, only slow it down a bit.
 
The only way to stop the cue ball is if you are shooting straight at the object ball. Even with a "stop shot stroke", on every cut shot the cue ball is going to move off after contact. With enough practice, you can learn where it's going to go, and with speed control, you can know how far it will go, but I've never seen anyone that could stop the cue ball on a cut shot.
Steve
 
im not an insrtuctor
so my advice is also a question for the instructors
to teach me if im wrong or right
on some cut shots( alittle more than straight in) if you use spin to throw the ball in
you can hit it fuller
and decrease the travel of the cue ball
 
Thanks Fran and Steve.

And Steve, I'm not expecting it to actually stop, but to not move away as far. I've seen better players do it, I just can't get the hang of it, yet.

As always, I appreciate the advice.
 
justadub said:
Thanks Fran and Steve.
And Steve, I'm not expecting it to actually stop, but to not move away as far. I've seen better players do it, I just can't get the hang of it, yet.

As always, I appreciate the advice.
Click to expand...

i guess as a non instructor i shoudnt give my 2 cents
fran you win
 
bbb said:
i guess as a non instructor i shoudnt give my 2 cents
fran you win
Click to expand...

Oh my ....

Yes, thanks for your response, too.

Fran and Steve have been helping me for some time now, so I have some familiarity with them.
 
i am not an instructor but the shot you are asking about if to thin almost always requires going up table to short rail and back to middle if a full enough hit you can use a drag shot.
 
justadub said:
Thanks Fran and Steve.

I've seen better players do it, I just can't get the hang of it, yet.

.
Click to expand...

In that case why don't you ask them to watch you & see what you're doing different/wrong. More than likely they're hitting the same shot fuller & throwing it a little &/or striking the CB very low in order to be able to hit it softer yet still maintain the tangent line. Those are basically the only 2 ways to limit movement on a cut shot. You can drag a shot also. That won't maintain the tangent line but is useful in many situations.
I'm about 3 hrs. from you & if you'd be willing to come down sometime be happy to help you out. There's a poolroom in Portsmouth & also Somersworth, NH (which I think are about 2 hrs. from Bangor) we could meet at.
I'm not an instructor, just have 50 yrs. experience playing. The good news is I wouldn't be looking for any compensation. PM me if interested.
 
I can't wrap my head around exactly what you're talking about without actually seeing the shots you are talking about, but I THINK I understand the basics of what you need. So, lets give this a shot.

Speed control is the key, here... I can shoot some position shots where most would go to the rail without ever touching it and using very little speed. Sometimes almost a "finesse" speed. I'm just going to throw one shot out here. a 3/4 (or so) full hit on the OB a diamond out of the corner with a ball on the rail even with or above it. Most would use a center ball or a little below center ball hit, stroke speed (medium, if you prefer) and send the cue ball off the rail with a touch of outside and it goes up table and gets on your next shot. Try this instead. A slow, finesse speed, about enough to send the cue ball, unabated, half the length of the table, with 2 tips of low, no left or right. This basically draws the ball up to your position on this shot without hitting the rail. If that doesn't get it, then play with speed and tip position... try slower speed with 3 tips low (bottom of the ball) and a quarter tip inside... this creates a little "slide draw" that greatly alters the CB from the tangent line. These are great shots, but do take practice. I'm a proponent of HAMB for learning advanced position play. Nothing like getting on a table and shooting the same shot 100 times to figure out exactly how to play that shot when it comes up in competition.

Don't know if this particular shot helped, but the point is, practice those shots, play with speed and tip position until you get them exactly where you want them.

Gotta run... on my way to Little Rock and the boss lady is upstairs yelling "Are you down there hitting balls?" :smile:

Bob
 
Try hitting the cue ball as low as you can without miscuing and try varying the speed from not even getting the object ball to the pocket to plenty of power to pocket the object ball. The point is to learn to kill the cue ball in open table.

Also, try just rolling the cue ball (with an above-center hit and soft speed) and with just enough speed to barely get the object ball over the brink. Most players lack that touch.

A general drill for position play is described in the August article in http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/cols2008r.pdf
Briefly: choose two random points on the table, one for the object ball and one for position. Take cue ball in hand and find the easiest way to make the ball and get position (within a few inches). Then find other ways. Then try it with other pairs of random points.
 
Larry...You're right, as I showed you. The cut angle has to be very slight, though, to be able to limit how far the CB will run.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

bbb said:
im not an insrtuctor
so my advice is also a question for the instructors
to teach me if im wrong or right
on some cut shots( alittle more than straight in) if you use spin to throw the ball in
you can hit it fuller
and decrease the travel of the cue ball
Click to expand...
 
Dub.
Bob touched on the key in his reply. In case you missed it, the stun/stop shot is accomplished with a combination of speed and spin. If you can hit the cue ball lower, you can take off some of the speed and accomplish the same thing. Practice using a striped ball. With the stripe going around the center/equator you can make contact at the bottom of the stripe without miscueing. You can aim lower than you might think, since it will be the top of the tip that actually makes contact. Check for the chalk mark to see how well you are doing.

Steve
 
Good stuff, EVERYONE.... Hopefully I'm gonna get some time tonight to tackle this, and all of your suggestions.

Portsmouth in 2 hours.....maybe if my wife was driving :p Closer to 3 hours, which is still not a big deal, were I ever to have enough time away from work. Perhaps someday, thanks for the invite. I could use a trip to that delightful store on the traffic circle for supplies, too. :)

Got a chance to look at the YouTube video linked earlier in the thread....so that is the infamous Australian Oyster. That put a smile on my face. I liked what he presented there, but what I watched was mostly straight shots, not addressing my issues with cut shots. I couldnt find the third video quickly when i was watching this morning, so perhaps that was where it was addressed?

Once again, my thanks folks. And I apologize again for the vagueness. I can visualize what I'm thinking of, but describing it has proven to be a challenge.
 
justadub said:
Good stuff, EVERYONE.... Hopefully I'm gonna get some time tonight to tackle this, and all of your suggestions.

Portsmouth in 2 hours.....maybe if my wife was driving :p Closer to 3 hours, which is still not a big deal, were I ever to have enough time away from work. Perhaps someday, thanks for the invite. I could use a trip to that delightful store on the traffic circle for supplies, too. :)

Got a chance to look at the YouTube video linked earlier in the thread....so that is the infamous Australian Oyster. That put a smile on my face. I liked what he presented there, but what I watched was mostly straight shots, not addressing my issues with cut shots. I couldnt find the third video quickly when i was watching this morning, so perhaps that was where it was addressed?

Once again, my thanks folks. And I apologize again for the vagueness. I can visualize what I'm thinking of, but describing it has proven to be a challenge.
Click to expand...

If you look at the rest of his youtube videos there are 3 videos (parts 1 to 3) on actual cue ball positioning. I just sent you the links on stop shots. For me they were quantative (ie 1 diamond distance = ???? tips, etc).
 
*Not An Instructor*

First, are you talking about doing this... http://vvcap.net/db/XSrfnwEpyF-chK6RwvKr.png

If so, I'll try to explain my method for "killing" the CB on cut shots.

What I like to do is hit the CB as low as possible, and fairly firm. I also use more of a punch/quick type stroke. I guess the best way to describe it is being more of a poke than a stroke, although I don't necessarily know if that's what I'm actually doing. I'm pretty much trying to reduce as much spin on the CB as possible. Less spin on the CB = less movement after contact with the OB.

It's definitely a shot to get down pat as it's crucial in a game like 14.1, but also has it's uses in any other game as well.

Hope that helps. Good luck!
 
first one must understand the difference between brain knowledge and arm knowledge.. your brain can know the right answer instantly from the word go.. but if your arm can't pull it off it's useless knowledge

the way I see it... cut angle and cb control .. is a basic fundamental truth about pool... you need to own the tangent line/stop shot line and until you do the answer will elude you because while angle is always repeatable... speed and spin are slaves to distance and playing conditions

you need to own the stop shot line!!!

only then are you prepared to practice repeatable shots over a range of angles with the full spectrum of spins.. from dead straight in.. to thin cut....and shoot them over and over again..

once you do that you come to grips with many truths that the talkers never understand..

the straighter the shot is the more important spin is in the CB's final destination

the thinner the cut is the more important speed is in the CB's final destination

the half ball hit allows you the widest range of options using various amounts of spin vs speed to create the most possible destinations for the CB

that's all the brain knowledge you need for CB control as it relates to cut shots

now go teach your arm how to do it.. I have a sweet drill I invented for this exact purpose and it has done wonders for my game..

I'll give it to you if you PM me with an honest promise to actually DO IT 1 hour a day 3 times a week for 2 weeks..

make me that promise and you will never need to ask this question again..
 
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