# Cue Ball Frozen to Object Ball - What are the Options

#### the chicken

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When the cue ball is frozen to an object ball, what are the shooting options needed to avoid a double kiss or a push shot?

John

#### BRussell

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Under most rules, you can shoot straight through both. The bigger problem is when there's a small gap.

#### Curt

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You may shoot anyway you'd like. There cannot be a "push" foul when the two balls are frozen

#### timothysoong

##### TS Billiards
Gold Member
Silver Member
There is no double-hit if the balls are touching/frozen. But if there's a small gap in between, if u hit anything within 45 degrees it's most likely a foul(double-hit).

#### the chicken

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks for the video link, Dogs.

I'm just sorry that I thought I understood this shot, since 1963. Duh!

John

#### DogsPlayingPool

Silver Member
Thanks for the video link, Dogs.

I'm just sorry that I thought I understood this shot, since 1963. Duh!

John

Glad it helped. Essentially, when the balls are touching you could say they behave like a single ball, so the cue ball chases after the object ball without being hit a 2nd time.

Now, if there is even the slightest gap between the balls and the cue ball goes following after the OB, you can be sure it was double hit. Thanks again to the good Dr. Dave, here's a video that illustrates what is actually happening:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-12.htm

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#### wrickyb

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Keep in mind it is a NORMAL stroke not a extended stroke like a break stroke. If you push through that is not a Normal stroke and will cause a Double hit.

In my Dads time in rotation they would call that type of shot "putting your stick in and staring it up" basically frozen to object ball and trying to luck something in

#### Donny Lutz

##### Ferrule Cat
Silver Member
push shot

You may shoot anyway you'd like. There cannot be a "push" foul when the two balls are frozen

It's confusing, but yes, you can foul by pushing the cue ball through whether the balls in question are frozen or not.

The "push" is an option after the break in 9-ball. It's actually called a "push out" but players often shorten it to "push. It is perfectly legal.

The illegal "push" we're talking about here refers to actually "pushing" the CB with the cue tip, - in other words the tip stays in contact with the CB during the follow through.

So, a double hit is an accident (with the exception of when a shooter tries to get away with the double hit foul), but a "push" is something done intentionally by placing the tip on the CB and then pushing forward.

A good analogy is boxing. It's the difference between hitting an opponent and pushing them.

#### Curt

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's confusing, but yes, you can foul by pushing the cue ball through whether the balls in question are frozen or not.

The "push" is an option after the break in 9-ball. It's actually called a "push out" but players often shorten it to "push. It is perfectly legal.

The illegal "push" we're talking about here refers to actually "pushing" the CB with the cue tip, - in other words the tip stays in contact with the CB during the follow through.

So, a double hit is an accident (with the exception of when a shooter tries to get away with the double hit foul), but a "push" is something done intentionally by placing the tip on the CB and then pushing forward.

A good analogy is boxing. It's the difference between hitting an opponent and pushing them.

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#### caff3in3

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
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Lol yup!

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

#### Donny Lutz

##### Ferrule Cat
Silver Member
sorry

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Sorry if you are unable to understand my explanation. Perhaps you can get someone in your area to demonstrate the difference between a "push", a "push-out" and a double hit.

Thought my boxing analogy might work. Is the problem that you don't get the difference between a "hit" and a "push"? When you strike a CB with the tip of your cue, it's not unlike striking a boxer with your fist, - a quick contact and that's all. When you push a CB, the contact is maintained for at least a second or two, just like when you push a boxer or anything for that matter, - your hand stays in contact as long as you continue to push. Another analogy that may work for you is the difference between hitting a car and pushing a car.

Hitting a cue ball when it is frozen to another ball is legal, pushing the CB is always illegal. The "push shot" is listed as Standard Foul # 6.8 in the World Standardized Rules.

#### Curt

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
" When you push a CB, the contact is maintained for at least a second or two"

I strongly disagree with your premise. You'll have to direct me to a Dr Dave video showing 1 sec contact let alone a two sec contact

#### Bob Jewett

##### AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
" When you push a CB, the contact is maintained for at least a second or two"
...
Well, maybe not a whole second, but it might be. Here's a kind of push shot:

Freeze the object ball on the side rail four inches from a corner pocket. Freeze the cue ball to the OB and straight out from the rail. Address the cue ball for a shot straight at the OB but with side spin on the side away from the pocket. Don't stroke the shot but gradually bring the tip up to the cue ball. The press the tip into the cue ball without any backstroke. You can turn/pinch the OB straight along the cushion into the pocket.

You can do something similar with a frozen ball out in the middle of the table. If you come up to the cue ball slowly and push rather than stroke, you can take the ball off-line by quite a bit. The trick is to accelerate after the ball has moved some.

Both of these shots are illegal, of course.

#### Curt

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bob, I understand the scenario you're describing, however, I don't believe that was what Donny had in mind.

#### Cornerman

##### Cue Author...Sometimes
Gold Member
Silver Member
You may shoot anyway you'd like. There cannot be a "push" foul when the two balls are frozen

Well... Yes there can be a push foul. There can even be a double hit but foul. Neither of these fouls care if the balls are frozen or not frozen. Someone should link to a video

But for the initial poster, you can hit straight at the cueball that is frozen to an object ball with a normal stroke. Care must be taken if there are other object balls in the vicinity.

Freddie <~~~ master of fouling

#### Cornerman

##### Cue Author...Sometimes
Gold Member
Silver Member
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Read it again. What Donny wrote was as clear as anyone's explained it. (With some minor nitpicking)

Freddie <~~~ can't give 100%

#### KissedOut

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just for the sake of completeness, in 3C billiards if your cue ball is frozen to an object ball you only have two choices: 1) shoot completely away from the object ball (if the object ball moves it is a foul), or 2) have both balls spotted and continue from the resulting position.

#### dr_dave

##### Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Glad it helped. Essentially, when the balls are touching you could say they behave like a single ball, so the cue ball chases after the object ball without being hit a 2nd time.

Now, if there is even the slightest gap between the balls and the cue ball goes following after the OB, you can be sure it was double hit. Thanks again to the good Dr. Dave, here's a video that illustrates what is actually happening:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-12.htm
For those interested, many more videos and instructional resources dealing with these topics can be found on the following pages:

frozen-ball aiming, fouls, and position control

double-hit foul detection and avoidance

push shot fouls

Enjoy,
Dave