Cue Breakdown during match play
- Thread starter sr 9ball
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When it is your turn at the table you can switch shafts, get jump portion of break cue ect. When it is your opponets turn at the table, it is a foul to break down any of your cues. ie forfiet of match
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Just curious, what set of rules is this?
I've always understood this rule to go like this:
If you, without prior warning to your opponent, begin to break down your cue during a match, you are effectively forfeiting that match. Not a foul, not a loss of game. The MATCH. I've never heard any rule where you have to wait till a particular moment, (i.e. your inning vs. your opponents), but it makes sense that it should be done during your inning. I've had to change shafts mid-match, and all it takes is a heads up to your opponent playing.
For those of you are going to want to know which rule book its in, I have no flippin clue. I learned this from playing the game, not reading about it.
If you, without prior warning to your opponent, begin to break down your cue during a match, you are effectively forfeiting that match. Not a foul, not a loss of game. The MATCH. I've never heard any rule where you have to wait till a particular moment, (i.e. your inning vs. your opponents), but it makes sense that it should be done during your inning. I've had to change shafts mid-match, and all it takes is a heads up to your opponent playing.
For those of you are going to want to know which rule book its in, I have no flippin clue. I learned this from playing the game, not reading about it.
that's a good question. Logically a player could break down his break cue once it's clear he no longer needs it (i.e. the final break of the match has been done, or it's alternate break and the upcoming final break is definitely the other player's).
But - the main reason for this rule is it's a brutal shark technique. Someone who is at the table shooting won't necessarily be able to tell that it's just your -break- cue, if he sees it out of the corner of his eye. Or he might know it's the break cue but it sharks the shooter anyway.
Without knowing what the rulebooks say, if I truly don't intend to shark anyone I won't unscrew anything until the match is over. Do I REALLY need to save that 20 seconds by unscrewing earlier? At the worst, I will wait until it's my inning and cannot shark my opponent.
And if someone does unscrew anything at all while his opponent is shooting, he better be ready for an argument.
But - the main reason for this rule is it's a brutal shark technique. Someone who is at the table shooting won't necessarily be able to tell that it's just your -break- cue, if he sees it out of the corner of his eye. Or he might know it's the break cue but it sharks the shooter anyway.
Without knowing what the rulebooks say, if I truly don't intend to shark anyone I won't unscrew anything until the match is over. Do I REALLY need to save that 20 seconds by unscrewing earlier? At the worst, I will wait until it's my inning and cannot shark my opponent.
And if someone does unscrew anything at all while his opponent is shooting, he better be ready for an argument.
Here's what the WPA (world standardized) rules say:
This doesn't seem to answer all relevant questions. For tournament play, I'd say it's best to have any such questions answered in advance at the players' meeting, so everyone knows what the operating rules are.
1.11 Concession
If a player concedes, he loses the match. For example, if a player unscrews his jointed playing cue stick while the opponent is at the table and during the opponent’s decisive rack of a match, it will be considered a concession of the match.
If a player concedes, he loses the match. For example, if a player unscrews his jointed playing cue stick while the opponent is at the table and during the opponent’s decisive rack of a match, it will be considered a concession of the match.
This doesn't seem to answer all relevant questions. For tournament play, I'd say it's best to have any such questions answered in advance at the players' meeting, so everyone knows what the operating rules are.
I remember when the rule was first implemented, Denver Open, early 80's, Earl the pearl playing Chewy Rivera (he's won the BCA 8 ball event in the past), Chewy had a great match and was on his way to beatin' Earl, but, during Chewys run out, Earl was sitting directly in line of sight on the rail and uncorked during the shot, Earl went on to win. This was the tipping point of sharking, I think Scott Smith was running the event for Frank Burgess.
It's not a foul; it's a concession of the entire match.
There are 3 rules in BCA pertinate to the topic at hand:
1.4.c Once you use a cue stick, no part of that cue stick may be replaced or substituted durring that match...
1.43 concession of game:...Before a game has ended, you must refrain from ...such as putting away your cue...
1.44 Consession of Match: When you opponent is on th hill, if yo make a motionto unscrew your playinig cue stick durring your opponents inning, you lose the match.
So, it looks like unscrewing you play cue is consession of game, unless the opponent is on the hill.
1.4.c Once you use a cue stick, no part of that cue stick may be replaced or substituted durring that match...
1.43 concession of game:...Before a game has ended, you must refrain from ...such as putting away your cue...
1.44 Consession of Match: When you opponent is on th hill, if yo make a motionto unscrew your playinig cue stick durring your opponents inning, you lose the match.
So, it looks like unscrewing you play cue is consession of game, unless the opponent is on the hill.
Looking at the current 2009-2010 BCAPL rules, I do not see a 1.4.c section at all. Maybe 1.4.c is from an older set of rules.
Under section 1.43.1 it is a concession of the game, but not the match, if you put your playing cue away. This does seem rather odd as I cannot fathom why anyone would put away their cue for a single game in a match. However, it does not say it is a concession for just unscrewing it. It seems to me that if you unscrew your playing cue to change shafts then you have not put your cue away and therefore is not a concession. On the other hand, 1.43.1 also leaves it open to the interpretation of the referee as to whether or not any of your actions indicated a concession.
Under section 1.44 it is clear that unscrewing your playing cue while your opponent is on the hill AND it is during your opponents inning, it is considered a concession. This appears identical to WPA rule 1.11. I did find it interesting that 1.44 only applies to the playing cue, not the break cue. This is from page 96 in the Applied Rulings section:
It is also worth noting that it can still be judged as unsportsmanlike conduct under 1.45. This is also from page 96 in the Applied Rulings section.
All in all, it appears to be legal to change shafts during a game. I would however consider it proper etiquette to only perform such actions during your turn and not your opponents. I would also consider it proper to inform your opponent that you are changing shafts before doing so. This would alleviate any confusion and allow an opportunity to involve a referee in the case that there is a difference of opinions regarding the rules.
To answer the OP, it appears to be legal to put away your break cue before the end of the match as long as it cannot be construed that you were trying to shark your opponent. Personally I would prefer to just keep all of my equipment assembled until the end of the match. That way there would be no arguments.
Of course, all of the above regards current BCAPL rules only. Other leagues might vary in how they rule on these situations.
John
Under section 1.43.1 it is a concession of the game, but not the match, if you put your playing cue away. This does seem rather odd as I cannot fathom why anyone would put away their cue for a single game in a match. However, it does not say it is a concession for just unscrewing it. It seems to me that if you unscrew your playing cue to change shafts then you have not put your cue away and therefore is not a concession. On the other hand, 1.43.1 also leaves it open to the interpretation of the referee as to whether or not any of your actions indicated a concession.
Under section 1.44 it is clear that unscrewing your playing cue while your opponent is on the hill AND it is during your opponents inning, it is considered a concession. This appears identical to WPA rule 1.11. I did find it interesting that 1.44 only applies to the playing cue, not the break cue. This is from page 96 in the Applied Rulings section:
It is also worth noting that it can still be judged as unsportsmanlike conduct under 1.45. This is also from page 96 in the Applied Rulings section.
All in all, it appears to be legal to change shafts during a game. I would however consider it proper etiquette to only perform such actions during your turn and not your opponents. I would also consider it proper to inform your opponent that you are changing shafts before doing so. This would alleviate any confusion and allow an opportunity to involve a referee in the case that there is a difference of opinions regarding the rules.
To answer the OP, it appears to be legal to put away your break cue before the end of the match as long as it cannot be construed that you were trying to shark your opponent. Personally I would prefer to just keep all of my equipment assembled until the end of the match. That way there would be no arguments.
Of course, all of the above regards current BCAPL rules only. Other leagues might vary in how they rule on these situations.
John
Wait for your turn and re-shaft my friend....SPF=randyg
That is what I would do, but 1.4.c quoted above seems to say that even that would be illegal.
Steve
so im guessing there is no real rule on breaking down your break cue.
i would never do it. but ive had alot of people try sharking me. breaking there break cue down, when im down on a shot. and even people start unscrewing there playing cue. but not all the way.
some one should enter a new rule. u can only break down ANY cue on your turn only. or immediately after your break if nothing falls!
i would never do it. but ive had alot of people try sharking me. breaking there break cue down, when im down on a shot. and even people start unscrewing there playing cue. but not all the way.
some one should enter a new rule. u can only break down ANY cue on your turn only. or immediately after your break if nothing falls!
Anytime you break down your playing cue in the middle of the match it is technically considered a forfeit that being said as a gentleman etiquette wait till you opponent is at a moment where the distraction wont matter and verbally annouce you are going to change shafts if that is your intent, but verbalize it so there is no confusion.
It is from the 2007-2008 set of rules.
But perhaps this caused some consternation with issues like tip comming off, that it got yanked in 2009-2010.
