Cue Collecting: Counting Inlays

[mamono]

So you're sitting there with a cue in your hands while counting inlays... What would you classify as an inlay and what you would not? There are some things that sit in gray space where some would argue as being an inlay and some would say it isn't. Just thought I'd throw that question out there since we've seen quite a few collector questions lately.

I, myself, have a good idea, but would like to see what others have to say. There are the obvious and there are the not so obvious.

To use an example, here is a TAD cue from the J&J Cue website.

Just one window alone, I count 26 inlays: 24 veneer inlays, 1 ebony window inlay, and 1 notched diamond inlay. Correct me if I'm wrong, looking to get the counting right.

For the rings, would you count the ebony inset between the micarta and the MOP if the base of the ring is made of ebony?

 

[mamono]

Here is another example.

Since the butt sleeve is ebony, I presume that the ebony sections are not counted. Just counting the inlays that make up the feather and everything touching the feather inlay.
22 veneer inlays for the left side of the feather, 1 red sqaure inlaid in center, 24 veneer inlays for the right side of the feather, 2 veneers total on the feather points, and 2 veneers total inlaid on either side of the feather from the windows.
Total count: 51 inlays, correct?

 

[jayman]

So you're sitting there with a cue in your hands while counting inlays... What would you classify as an inlay and what you would not? There are some things that sit in gray space where some would argue as being an inlay and some would say it isn't. Just thought I'd throw that question out there since we've seen quite a few collector questions lately.

I, myself, have a good idea, but would like to see what others have to say. There are the obvious and there are the not so obvious.

To use an example, here is a TAD cue from the J&J Cue website.

Just one window alone, I count 26 inlays: 24 veneer inlays, 1 ebony window inlay, and 1 notched diamond inlay. Correct me if I'm wrong, looking to get the counting right.

For the rings, would you count the ebony inset between the micarta and the MOP if the base of the ring is made of ebony?

In your example, I consider each veneered box an inlay, and each diamond in each box an inlay. The rings are not inlays. They are "fancy ring work".

 

[mamono]

In your example, I consider each veneered box an inlay, and each diamond in each box an inlay. The rings are not inlays. They are "fancy ring work".

If you look closely at the veneer box, you can see the cut of each side. It takes 4 veneers per box, so would it still be considered 1 inlay or 4 inlays?

 

[LAlouie]

Chances are, the cuemaker would count every single thing as an inlay. It makes it seem more impressive.

Thus, one square with the circle and dot would count as 3 inlays. I see 6 squares, or 18 inlays. He would also count every hash mark as a seperate inlay...I see 16 hash marks. However, if you knew how cuemakers create hash marks, then imo it is really bogus to consider EACH has mark an inlay. ( what they do is inlay white strips into a dark round dowel and slice it up like wafer chips. Stack up a bunch of casino chips. It's the same thing) But,,,what da heck, whatever. So anyway, that's 34 inlays right there.

Technically, I think windows are inlays, but that's confusing. Then you have the notched diamond inlay. So to keep it simple, I see the 34 + the notched diamond, or 35 inlays.

 

[LAlouie]

In your example, I consider each veneered box an inlay, and each diamond in each box an inlay. The rings are not inlays. They are "fancy ring work".

Then is a 5 veneered frame just 5 inlays, or 20 including all 4 sides.

While I agree that a window is technically an inlay, everyone just says "window". The problem with counting windows and veneered frames as inlays is that you would have to apply the same criteria to points and veneers as well, so a simple 4point , 4 veneer cue would have to be a 16inlay cue. But no cuemaker says that.

 

[LAlouie]

Here is another example.

Since the butt sleeve is ebony, I presume that the ebony sections are not counted. Just counting the inlays that make up the feather and everything touching the feather inlay.
22 veneer inlays for the left side of the feather, 1 red sqaure inlaid in center, 24 veneer inlays for the right side of the feather, 2 veneers total on the feather points, and 2 veneers total inlaid on either side of the feather from the windows.
Total count: 51 inlays, correct?

If I'm not mistaken, Tad buys those arrow feathers pre-made, so he is inlaying JUST ONE inlay.

 

[deanoc]

I do not consider veneers to be inlays,I believe they are something else not technically an inlay.
This is the only place where I have seen this suggested.
I am not representing myself as an expert,but I would like to hear from an expert in cuemaking make some comments.
If I bought a cue with 100 inlays on the phone and in turned out to be every veneer and every direction,I would return the cue and be very suspicious of that persons descriptions in the future.

I am not impugning anyone here in the forum asking question,I am wanting to hear the solution

Dean

 

[hangemhigh]

Veneers are not inlays. The veneered box was assembled before it was inlaid into the cue, so it counts as 1 inlay. The notched diamond, or whatever shape inside the box is 1 inlay. Ringwork can be inlaid, and counts as inlays, but not if it is cut from a billet. You can ascertain weather it is a ring, or individual inlays, by a close examination. A circle inlaid with another material (silver circle with ivory inside) counts as two inlays.

 

[alphadog]

counting

So you're sitting there with a cue in your hands while counting inlays... What would you classify as an inlay and what you would not? There are some things that sit in gray space where some would argue as being an inlay and some would say it isn't. Just thought I'd throw that question out there since we've seen quite a few collector questions lately.

When reading cue descriptions I am confused as to how many inlays
are a TON?:grin-square:

 

[skins]

Veneers are not inlays. The veneered box was assembled before it was inlaid into the cue, so it counts as 1 inlay. The notched diamond, or whatever shape inside the box is 1 inlay. Ringwork can be inlaid, and counts as inlays, but not if it is cut from a billet. You can ascertain weather it is a ring, or individual inlays, by a close examination. A circle inlaid with another material (silver circle with ivory inside) counts as two inlays.

so if you take a circle of ivory and assemble lets say a silver dot inside that circle outside the cue's pocket for them, is it considered 1 inlay or two when put in the cue?.....are point veneers inlays?....they are "inlaid" when the blank is made so.....many styles of ring work require the maker to "inlay" the dashes and such at some point so why can't those be considered?....by your thoughts it could be a bit vague.... you said a veneered box "assembled" outside the pocket only counts as 1 inlay....how do you know it was assembled outside the cue?.... you can inlay all those veneers and other parts that make up those boxes "AT INLAY", like a puzzle.....which makes every piece an inlay...... no disrespect.....my point is we're talking semantics here.....i don't count "inlays" in cues but rather all the work, and i mean everything it took to create the final product....

skins ------------- love's LOTS of inlays!..........:grin:

 

[hangemhigh]

so if you take a circle of ivory and assemble lets say a silver dot inside that circle outside the cue's pocket for them, is it considered 1 inlay or two when put in the cue?..

2 inlays



...are point veneers inlays?.

No. Before you can inlay the cue, you have to construct the blank, veneers are part of the blank construction.

...they are "inlaid" when the blank is made so.....many styles of ring work require the maker to "inlay" the dashes and such at some point so why can't those be considered?....by your thoughts it could be a bit vague.... you said a veneered box "assembled" outside the pocket only counts as 1 inlay....how do you know it was assembled outside the cue?.... you can inlay all those veneers and other parts that make up those boxes "AT INLAY", like a puzzle.....which makes every piece an inlay...... no disrespect.....my point is we're talking semantics here...

Veneers and billet Ring work are not recognized as inlays. You might not like it, or agree, but you are alone with the above argument.

..i don't count "inlays" in cues but rather all the work, and i mean everything it took to create the final product....



skins ------------- love's LOTS of inlays!..........:grin:

There is no way you can count all the work in any given cue, for obvious reasons. On the other hand, you can count the number of inlays in any given cue.

 

[hangemhigh]

http://jjcue.com/images/Tad41-1-butt.jpg[/IMG]


I think there are 16 inlays in each ring, an 8 Ebony circles and 8 MOP dots inlaid into the billet ring work.

I think there are 12 inlays in the BEM Butt sleeve, 4 boxes, 4 Ebony squares, and 4 MOP notched diamonds. It does look like the 2 inside veneers are part of the Ebony square inlay. I have always counted the matching veneer colors used in a box as 1 inlay regardless.

 

[Big-Tattoo]

Tommy, silver Veneers are NOT Inlays
Ralf:grin:

 

[calboy8686]

I counted 20 veneers in the window, 1 ebony window inlay, 1 notched diamond inlay, and 1 "Window" inlay as a whole, for a total of 23. BTW - I'm jealous... LOL!! He doesn't deal directly with the public, thanks to your email the other day, you have to go through a distributor in so cal.. I think you would not count the other inlays because of the "ring" that they are in, so they would not be in the same classification as the window. Please educate me if I'm wrong.... any readers too

So you're sitting there with a cue in your hands while counting inlays... What would you classify as an inlay and what you would not? There are some things that sit in gray space where some would argue as being an inlay and some would say it isn't. Just thought I'd throw that question out there since we've seen quite a few collector questions lately.

I, myself, have a good idea, but would like to see what others have to say. There are the obvious and there are the not so obvious.

To use an example, here is a TAD cue from the J&J Cue website.

Just one window alone, I count 26 inlays: 24 veneer inlays, 1 ebony window inlay, and 1 notched diamond inlay. Correct me if I'm wrong, looking to get the counting right.

For the rings, would you count the ebony inset between the micarta and the MOP if the base of the ring is made of ebony?

 

[mamono]

so if you take a circle of ivory and assemble lets say a silver dot inside that circle outside the cue's pocket for them, is it considered 1 inlay or two when put in the cue?.....are point veneers inlays?....they are "inlaid" when the blank is made so.....many styles of ring work require the maker to "inlay" the dashes and such at some point so why can't those be considered?

I believe the points are the exception because the Blue Book of Pool Cues classifies cues by number of points and then by number of inlays.

I counted 20 veneers in the window, 1 ebony window inlay, 1 notched diamond inlay, and 1 "Window" inlay as a whole, for a total of 23. BTW - I'm jealous... LOL!! He doesn't deal directly with the public, thanks to your email the other day, you have to go through a distributor in so cal.. I think you would not count the other inlays because of the "ring" that they are in, so they would not be in the same classification as the window. Please educate me if I'm wrong.... any readers too

Sorry Ron, forgot to mention that... You can talk to Tad about the cue you are considering getting commissioned, but you have to go through J&J America in order to commission it. Last I talked to J&J America, I was turned down on the commission because he said Tad was too busy. I don't really know for certain though...

hm... It obviously seems like everyone has a different perspective on this subject. I'm glad that I asked. I think it would be a good idea to bring some cue makers into this discussion to see what they say. I'll have to ask Tad and Fred next time I visit so that I can share their input, unless someone plans to call them first and ask.

 

[LAlouie]

I counted 20 veneers in the window, 1 ebony window inlay, 1 notched diamond inlay, and 1 "Window" inlay as a whole, for a total of 23. BTW - I'm jealous... LOL!! He doesn't deal directly with the public, thanks to your email the other day, you have to go through a distributor in so cal.. I think you would not count the other inlays because of the "ring" that they are in, so they would not be in the same classification as the window. Please educate me if I'm wrong.... any readers too

Many cue windows are executed the same way as rings, just bigger. So if you count windows, you count rings to. And technically the dot/circle are inlayed, just as much as the diamonds are. I would imagine it depends on the process. I saw a pic of Tad in his workshop, and ALL that stuff was already pre-cut and done. So like all he had to do was pop in the window.

http://www.ilovecues.com/5th_ave/tad/tad/01.html watch the changing background. There's a pic of Tad with his "windows".

 

[mamono]

Many cue windows are executed the same way as rings, just bigger. So if you count windows, you count rings to. And technically the dot/circle are inlayed, just as much as the diamonds are. I would imagine it depends on the process. I saw a pic of Tad in his workshop, and ALL that stuff was already pre-cut and done. So like all he had to do was pop in the window.

http://www.ilovecues.com/5th_ave/tad/tad/01.html watch the changing background. There's a pic of Tad with his "windows".

The picture you're referring to can be seen in the following post.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=1818740&postcount=20

I remember reading about other cue makers having pre-assembled sections of their more common cues ahead of time and then assembling the cue together into one final piece at a later time. I don't think it detracts from the fact that there are inlays. But if you look closer, I believe those inlays which are hanging from the workbench are micarta. I have seen that workbench in person, but only from a distance. Difficult to tell...


Okay, then lets try something tough to think about... How you would rate the Tascarella barbell cues? Paying special attention to the Tascarella barbell cue without the ring work above the wrap.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=152639&highlight=Tascarella
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=150819&highlight=Tascarella
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=1611286&postcount=61

Would each veneer within the stack be an inlay?

 

[LAlouie]

The picture you're referring to can be seen in the following post.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=1818740&postcount=20

I remember reading about other cue makers having pre-assembled sections of their more common cues ahead of time and then assembling the cue together into one final piece at a later time. I don't think it detracts from the fact that there are inlays. But if you look closer, I believe those inlays which are hanging from the workbench are micarta. I have seen that workbench in person, but only from a distance. Difficult to tell...


Okay, then lets try something tough to think about... How you would rate the Tascarella barbell cues? Paying special attention to the Tascarella barbell cue without the ring work above the wrap.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=152639&highlight=Tascarella
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=150819&highlight=Tascarella
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=1611286&postcount=61

Would each veneer within the stack be an inlay?

A lot of it is general usage of the term, symantics as it were. In other words people will say "windows" and never consider them inlays. I think the term is usually witheld for stand alone pieces layed into wood.

In the butt samples, I think most(and me included) would say that the whole is one inlay, not the sections that make up it's design. But if Tascarella says "no, I inlayed every single segment of the barbell seperately", then there you go. One could say "that's three inlays(rod + 2 dots)", but Tascarella might say "I put 60 pieces of inlay in the barbell".

This is a nice discussion, but it's getting down to minutea that glosses over the obvious. If it seems what it is, it probably is. Besides, when describing a cue, most people describe what was told to them by the cuemaker. Therefore, the Tad cue was described to you as,,,,,,,,,,,,,what?

 

[mamono]

A lot of it is general usage of the term, symantics as it were. In other words people will say "windows" and never consider them inlays. I think the term is usually witheld for stand alone pieces layed into wood.

In the butt samples, I think most(and me included) would say that the whole is one inlay, not the sections that make up it's design. But if Tascarella says "no, I inlayed every single segment of the barbell seperately", then there you go. One could say "that's three inlays(rod + 2 dots)", but Tascarella might say "I put 60 pieces of inlay in the barbell".

This is a nice discussion, but it's getting down to minutea that glosses over the obvious. If it seems what it is, it probably is. Besides, when describing a cue, most people describe what was told to them by the cuemaker.

I think some cue maker input would be really helpful to this discussion.