Cue construction

[JB Cases]

You making a mockery of the forum is what happened. Do you realize that you hold an opinion that we can't change? Do you realize Joey holds an opinion you can't change? No you don't, and that's the problem. You've lost this debate by not realizing that a persons perception of what a pool cue should feel like when hit forms their opinion. Their opinion is that's the best feel, so best construction. You're trying to take the feel out of a cue and only focus on the engineering. A lot of people dislike Mezz because of how stiff the cues hit, which is directly related to the construction. Why don't you call those people out too?

The feels man, gotta remember them feels.

You also fail the reading comprehension test. Go back to the beginning of the thread and read what I wrote very slowly. Write it out in longhand and you will begin to understand maybe.

For 25 years I have sold cues using the hit is personal concept. So respectfully, you have even less business in this thread than Joey hack-a-cue Bautista.

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

You also fail the reading comprehension test. Go back to the beginning of the thread and read what I wrote very slowly. Wrote it out in longhand and you will begin to understand maybe.

For 25 years I have sold cues using the hit is personal concept. So respectfully, you have even less business in this thread than Joey hack-a-cue Bautista.

I guess you're right. Your chicken wing stroke obviously knows more than I do. You need an education on life John. And it starts with not being an ass to get your point across. Had you never attacked anyone's opinion, which you seem to think no one else is entitled to have. You wouldn't of made this thread get derailed. You would have been able to carefully point out discrepancies and form an argument as to why. Instead all you do is attack first, and tell people to **** off when they call your bullshit out.

No matter how much time you've spent around cue builders, you still can't call yourself a cue builder. And as such you have no opinion to say the techniques used by other makers are wrong, bad, or outdated. It is my personal opinion that Mezz cues are over engineered, but as long as you're alive. You will fight me every chance you get to say that I'm wrong. It's your nature.

 

[JB Cases]

And still no proof from the communist.
Oh, talking to an advanced one-pocket player often before shooting=cheating.
No matter how you spin it like he was just a cheerleader .
Undermining your dealer=slimy.

Guess I have to respond to edited posts.

#1 there was no coaching. The video shows clearly that I played horrible taking flyers for nine hours that no advanced one pocket player would take. And anyway pal all that was on camera was me and lou playing.

#2. I dont really know what you are referring to about undermining any dealers since I have taken about ten cross country sales trips in my life. During most of those trips I visited with many cuemakers, often trading so that I could take their cues back to Europe to sell. At one point I had more than 100 cues in our shop from super cheap to high end from dozens of cue makers and brands.

If you have a more specific accusation I would be happy to address it.

Although neither of the above points you are using to attack me has anything to do with the topic. I do understand your need to lash out. As many times as I have successfully defended against your personal and defamatory attacks and slurs I would probably be quite emotionally scarred if I were you and unable to stay on topic either.

My sincere apologies Joey. I just can't let bigoted comments like yours about cues go by without rebuttal. Sorry that you took it like a bad dowel full of splinters being shoved up your butt.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Guess I have to respond to edited posts.

#1 there was no coaching. The video shows clearly that I played horrible taking flyers for nine hours that no advanced one pocket player would take. And anyway pal all that was on camera was me and lou playing.

#2. I dont really know what you are referring to about undermining any dealers since I have taken about ten cross country sales trips in my life. During most of those trips I visited with many cuemakers, often trading so that I could take their cues back to Europe to sell. At one point I had more than 100 cues in our shop from super cheap to high end from dozens of cue makers and brands.

If you have a more specific accusation I would be happy to address it.

Although neither of the above points you are using to attack me has anything to do with the topic. I do understand your need to lash out. As many times as I have successfully defended against your personal and defamatory attacks and slurs I would probably be quite emotionally scarred if I were you and unable to stay on topic either.

My sincere apologies Joey. I just can't let bigoted comments like yours about cues go by without rebuttal. Sorry that you took it like a bad dowel full of splinters being shoved up your butt.

Cry me a river John.
You're the ahole who made this a war. You're manipulative butt hurt b!tch.
1. Bull kaka . You were getting pointers.
2. You sold below Mueller's price. You sold below retail and probably really close to wholesale .

You spin like a politician.
This was nothing more than the OP asking if the production cues today hit better than cues 25 years ago.
My opinion is, AND IT STANDS, the Adam ebony full-splice cues and the Runde era ( and I just learned Szamboti was a consultant to them after this thread went haywire. And as usual YOU ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF IT ) are better than production cues today,
You made a mountain out of that one .
You could have easily OPINED the Mezz and whatever cues are better today.
Instead, you went the high road and the ahole road.
You live for that. Thousands and thousands of words of argument is your thing.

 

[JB Cases]

I guess you're right. Your chicken wing stroke obviously knows more than I do. You need an education on life John. And it starts with not being an ass to get your point across. Had you never attacked anyone's opinion, which you seem to think no one else is entitled to have. You wouldn't of made this thread get derailed. You would have been able to carefully point out discrepancies and form an argument as to why. Instead all you do is attack first, and tell people to **** off when they call your bullshit out.

No matter how much time you've spent around cue builders, you still can't call yourself a cue builder. And as such you have no opinion to say the techniques used by other makers are wrong, bad, or outdated. It is my personal opinion that Mezz cues are over engineered, but as long as you're alive. You will fight me every chance you get to say that I'm wrong. It's your nature.

Awe the guy who just posted no ad hominem attacks leads with a crack about my stroke?

Of course everyone is ENTITLED to an opinion. They are free to have. But everyone is also ENTITLED to have an opposing opinion as well and has the right to voice that opposition.

How do you know I haven't made any cues? Did I say I haven't. I don't believe I did say it one way or the other but in case I didn't you're absolutely right. I can't call myself a cue maker.

However you're foolish to discount my experience because of it. I promise you one thing with 100% certainty. I can purchase a Joey Bautista cue and bandsaw it and then have it duplicated to the 1000th of a millimeter within weeks any time I choose to.

How do I know that? Well because I worked inside a factory that does exactly that with any cue their clients bring them week after week.

They have just about every shaft taper known programmed into their CNC lathes and can make the mm exact.

Their business is to build what the customer wants......repeatedly. and to tweak it until the customer is satisfied.

I worked there for a year. So no, not a cue maker. Just a guy with 25 years in this business. Sorry that's not enough for you to bow out and let us handle our own business.

 

[JB Cases]

Cry me a river John.
You're the ahole who made this a war. You're manipulative butt hurt b!tch.
1. Bull kaka . You were getting pointers.
2. You sold below Mueller's price. You sold below retail and probably really close to wholesale .

You spin like a politician.
This was nothing more than the OP asking if the production cues today hit better than cues 25 years ago.
My opinion is, AND IT STANDS, the Adam ebony full-splice cues and the Runde era ( and I just learned Szamboti was a consultant to them after this thread went haywire. And as usual YOU ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF IT ) are better than production cues today,
You made a mountain out of that one .
You could have easily OPINED the Mezz and whatever cues are better today.
Instead, you went the high road and the ahole road.
You live for that. Thousands and thousands of words of argument is your thing.

1. You were there? No you weren't. No one heard me getting coached because I wasn't getting coached and any way none of the conversation was on camera anyway..which was your assertion.

2. Ahh Muellers....you mean my dealer in Nebraska whom I passed out catalogs for all across the country? The one I put on all the receipts as the source for cases after we left town?

You mean to say that you have a problem when they didn't? Let's be clear here pal....I sell my cases to whomever I want whenever I want and for whatever I want to. It is none of your business what my business is with my dealers. Mueller's was never harmed by any of my sales anywhere in the United States. Exactly the opposite in fact as our on-the-ground promotion introduced the cases to hundreds of people across America who could then show off and explain to those who saw them in the Muellers catalog.

You should really stop stretching so hard because you are going to hurt yourself badly. Go build a cue to fill out your yearly amount of five. Show it off and tell us how perfect the wood is, how you counted 20,000 birdseyes in it and it hits a perfect c major. That should relax you and take all the stress away from this verbal smack down away.

 

[JB Cases]

And hits em hard if you said Mezz is over enginered then I couldn't possibly argue with that as I am not a cuemaker and I wouldn't know what that state would be. What I do know is that holding an opinion about something you know nothing about when that something is tangible and dissectable is pretty ignorant.

so since you want to be here tell us where your experience in the cue business lies? Cuemaker? Sales? Or just player?

 

[JoeyInCali]

1. Bull kaka. Judging from your manipulative and lying
character, IMO of course .

2. Slimy IMO . Who knows how many got "dealers" price.

Wow, you worked inside a factory who copied cues.
That's so you .

Still waiting for your proof Mezz today hits better than
full-splice Adam or Runde-era Schon.
You got none

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

You talk about people not getting the point, it's you who doesn't get it John. No matter how much you are in love with your factory perception, you omit the detail of how the wood is processed and selected for that copy cue. They visually make the same cue. But do they take the time to align everything like a custom cue maker does? I'd be willing to say no as the are a factory, not a custom shop. They can't afford the time lost to perfect the cues. You preach of them being able to match every known taper out there. Why is it so hard to get them to make shafts for these cues then? You preach of how good they are, but the only example you can point to(Mezz) is by many people's standard. Is too stiff.

If the general feedback says that a cue shoots too stiff, and you choose them to showcase better construction. Do I really need to point out the obvious connection between over building and the playability of a cue? Or are you going to say again that their opinions don't matter because they haven't experienced what you have? For someone as experienced in all facets of life like you proclaim, you sure aren't that experienced with dealing with people. Stop being an asshole John. You could have made your point by being nice and pointing out why. Instead you preach of others experience as your own. There is far more to this subject that you have been exposed to in your short time around cue assemblers.

 

[JB Cases]

1. Bull kaka. Judging from your manipulative and lying
character, IMO of course .

2. Slimy IMO . Who knows how many got "dealers" price.

Wow, you worked inside a factory who copied cues.
That's so you .

Still waiting for your proof Mezz today hits better than
full-splice Adam or Runde-era Schon.
You got none

1. You weren't there pal....but if you want to see how I can play personally then you put some money up and you and I can dance for ten thousand. I will play you 10 ahead for ten thousand. You're Filipino so I ought to ask for weight but I will try you even since I am confident you're probably the worst Filipino pool player living.

2. Yes I worked in a factory that makes it their business to learn how to build what the customer wants. Did you invent some new way of building cues Joey or do you also use methods and techniques that other Cuemakers before you did?

Kao Kao has in fact invented a few new ways to build cues.... Which may or may not be better but they are new.

Funny that the guy who RELIES on his possession of xrays of cues to act like an expert would be intolerant of those who actually dissect cues to learn from them.

 

[JB Cases]

You talk about people not getting the point, it's you who doesn't get it John. No matter how much you are in love with your factory perception, you omit the detail of how the wood is processed and selected for that copy cue. They visually make the same cue. But do they take the time to align everything like a custom cue maker does? I'd be willing to say no as the are a factory, not a custom shop. They can't afford the time lost to perfect the cues. You preach of them being able to match every known taper out there. Why is it so hard to get them to make shafts for these cues then? You preach of how good they are, but the only example you can point to(Mezz) is by many people's standard. Is too stiff.

If the general feedback says that a cue shoots too stiff, and you choose them to showcase better construction. Do I really need to point out the obvious connection between over building and the playability of a cue? Or are you going to say again that their opinions don't matter because they haven't experienced what you have? For someone as experienced in all facets of life like you proclaim, you sure aren't that experienced with dealing with people. Stop being an asshole John. You could have made your point by being nice and pointing out why. Instead you preach of others experience as your own. There is far more to this subject that you have been exposed to in your short time around cue assemblers.

How much are you willing to bet?

Now you got my attention. And FYI...this thread is about Production Cues.

 

[MahnaMahna]

how much are you willing to bet?.

lol.........

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

Are today's methods producing better quality than cues made 25 years ago? Are today's cues better built, more consistent,and more stable over the long term?

How much are you willing to bet?

Now you got my attention. And FYI...this thread is about Production Cues.

I'd be willing to bet a million you are so ****ing full of it that you're completely unaware of the original question asked. Where does that say production you dolt? You and others harping the 'gospel' of how to build production cues forgot the original question. Go sit down and suck on your thumb you big cry baby.

 

[JoeyInCali]

1. I believe Lou and the witnesses . And common sense. Not you

.
2. Still slime ball.


Still no proof.

 

[JB Cases]

I'd be willing to bet a million you are so ****ing full of it that you're completely unaware of the original question asked. Where does that say production you dolt? You and others harping the 'gospel' of how to build production cues forgot the original question. Go sit down and suck on your thumb you big cry baby.

the second question was about production cues. you know the one you jumped all over me about...

and gosh more name calling, from the guy lecturing me on how to argue? how ironic.

 

[JB Cases]

1. I believe Lou and the witnesses . And common sense. Not you

.
2. Still slime ball.


Still no proof.

What witnesses? The people sitting across the arena?

2. joey what do you know about this business really? far as I know and feel free to correct me, you're a small time hobby cuemaker with a day job. have you ever owned your own business with employees to be responsible for in the billiard industry or otherwise? just trying to gauge the experience level of the guy who presumes to judge me and what I have done in this industry. I think you're a super nobody outside of this forum. and I agree with you, your opinion doesn't matter. I should not have addressed it as a point worth discussing. instead focusing my attention on you only benefits you.

I also never said that a modern mezz hits better than any other cue from any era. I said I don't think that you have any proof that they don't. the way you phrased it you said that all modern production cues can't compare to old schons or old adam cues....I bet OB Cues disagrees with you...as does every manufacturer.... and not only because hit is subjective.

now I am going to tell you two stories that you will call lies but both are 100% truth.

At the BCA nationals in 2003 I was tasked with selling fury cues. I decided not to pitch them but instead to allow players to hit with them and give me their feedback. I put no prices on the cues and just let them hit with it and tell me what they thought the price should be. in nearly all cases the guessed price was higher than the actual price. but the best one was when a guy tried to trade his $1000 schon for a $100 Fury. We didn't accept of course and when told the price was $100 he just bought it outright.

Story number two involves a very good player and part of a national championship team from Chicago. Bob was out at the SBE and found himself in a mini tourament without a cue. he came to the booth and asked if we had a cue to loan him. we said sure just pick one. he did and went to win the tournament. when he came back he said that the cue hit better than his 2k custom. he asked the price and was shocked when we said $115.

now, call me a liar so I can offer to bet you $10,000 that Bob Romano will tell you the same story.

 

[deanoc]

could someone please state the true nature of the question being debated here?

i thought it started out with something like"are new cues made better"
what is the question being discussed?

Has evidence been brought forth to prove that John is a communist?

Can Joey please define the term communist for us before claiming that
John is one?

Is any one going to take any bet I offered?

How long will John be attacked before he is barred?

At this rate I might cover more than 1 bet.

 

[JB Cases]

It is OK Dean...the questions have long been answered....right now it's just Joey on tilt.

 

[JB Cases]

Hits em soft..

Where exactly was I an asshole here?

 

[galipeau]

The burden of proof lies with the claimant.... but that depends on whether or not you are using rational thought to argue your point.

I waded through pages of BS hoping to find some decent train of thought emerge on what could have been a very interesting topic of discussion. STOP with the name-calling and personal quarrels. This is a billiard forum for many people to enjoy, so check your ego's before logging in and typing whatever random words seem to occur in your head.

ANYWAYS.... it seems like there are several discussions going on.
-Production cues Now vs Production cues 25 years ago.
-Comparing the above categories quality in terms of Construction
-Comparing the above categories quality in terms of Feel

I'm sure I missed some other questions posed, but I had a hard enough time getting through this thread all the way to this point to go back and look for them. I've simply chosen to list the major topics that have been covered.

Also, my thanks go out to those who have kept their comments somewhat rational and objective, or at the very least, biased but positive.