Cue Prices

Brain71 said:
Hi, I'm relatively new here (on this forum anyway), and I just wanted to say that prices are getting rediculous. I just seen a "sugartree" sneaky pete on the wanted/for sale forum for $800. Rediculous!! A plain jane sneaky pete! I'm not talking bad about whomever is selling the cue or the cue maker. I'm sure both are extremely reputable people. I just think prices are going way overboard nowadays. It's getting to the point that you're just buying the name and not the cue. $1500 for a plain jane bluegrass cue? I know they're supposed to be hard to get and that there is a waiting list for his cues but my god! Be paitent, they go on ebay all the time. Even if I could afford to collect cues I think I would still complain about these crazy prices. Like I said I'm in no way bashing anyone who sells cues or makes them. I'm guilty of paying a little more than I should have on a couple of cues myself. After seeing that sneaky pete for $800, I just felt like I had to say something.
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You are a man after my own heart !!!!!!

As a custom cuemaker, I have made many waves on here regarding realistic and affordable prices regarding custom built cues....

I totally 100% agree with your entire statment and it is ridiculous... I for one build "tools" for players not "art" for collectors and my high quality custom fitted cues built 100% to the customers specs. start at 350.00 for a peak at my work follow this link: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=91822

There are very few of us cuemakers who are NOT trying to make a mortgage payment off of one sale or trying to compete on the secondary market....

The prices need to come down becasue this is a poverished sport that is almost impossible for the avg. player to recouperate his equipment expense due to very limited payouts and greedy tournament directors and pathetic gambling conditions, much less having to shell out a 1000+ just for a decent custom cue becasue the player needs a little more than what the production side offers but cannot afford to finance a custom cue to obtain it either so that's where a few of us come into the picture becasue there IS a market for great quality cues at a realistic affordable price !!!

Kudos to you on a very accurate evaluation of todays custom cue market !




- Eddie Wheat
 
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Quick Question Eddie Wheat if your shop., and supplies burn to the grown today, and you need a check to replace it all. What would the amount on the check be?

Point is what have you got invested in your business?
 
Brain71 said:
Hi, I'm relatively new here (on this forum anyway), and I just wanted to say that prices are getting ridiculous. I just seen a "sugartree" sneaky pete on the wanted/for sale forum for $800. Rediculous!! A plain jane sneaky pete! I'm not talking bad about whomever is selling the cue or the cue maker. I'm sure both are extremely reputable people. I just think prices are going way overboard nowadays. It's getting to the point that you're just buying the name and not the cue. $1500 for a plain jane bluegrass cue? I know they're supposed to be hard to get and that there is a waiting list for his cues but my god! Be paitent, they go on ebay all the time. Even if I could afford to collect cues I think I would still complain about these crazy prices. Like I said I'm in no way bashing anyone who sells cues or makes them. I'm guilty of paying a little more than I should have on a couple of cues myself. After seeing that sneaky pete for $800, I just felt like I had to say something.
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You mean SOME cues' prices are getting ridiculous.
There are plenty of CHEAP "custom" cues out there.
PLENTY.
Kerry Zeiler and Sugartree are among the few whose "sneakies" go for a lot more than a lot of cues with veneered points even. It's called resale value.
Dennis Searing's coco sneaky went for 2 grand here iirc.

Now, look at it from the maker's point of view. Let's say he gets $500 for sneakies. His phone is ringing off the hook. People are asking for them. He makes some batches and delivers them. Next thing he sees them being flipped on Ebay or here for $650 and up easily. Should he make the next batch for $500 each? Now, he raises the price to $650, and makes 5 of them and they are SOLD BEFORE they are even finished.
Great, the $650 more he made gets him to pay for gas for his next trip to his wood supplier.
Btw, these sneakies who are very sought after is not a coincidence. There's one common denominator among them, GREAT HIT.
The resale value is determined by the market. The demand is created by the makers. If they make kaka cues, they'll get kaka demand.
 
Murray Tucker said:
You can't blame the cuemaker for the secondary market pricing.

However I do believe that cue prices in general are too cheap. I have $4200.00 (in 1998 money not including my air line tickets, rental car, hotel, etc) invested in the stock on my shotgun. I would be willing to bet that my stock maker has less time and materials invested than a comparable $4200 cue.
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Try buying a Purdey Shotgun Murray. You will never shoot anything else.
Peace, Purdman :duck:
 
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ridewiththewind said:
Brain (is it really Brain?)....often times cue prices are driven here by what I have fondly coined the "Cue du Jour Syndrome". In other words, that cuemaker which is currently enjoying a great deal of hype, thereby driving up demand, while supplies are low. It changes cuemakers from year to year, but that is the gist of it. Several years ago, Zylr cues was enjoying a similar condition....now those cues are back down to within a reasonable level. The BlueGrass cues go up and down, as RH opens and closes his orders list. I suspect the same will be true as Eric gets more of his orders completed, and those who got into the 'game' early enough flip them over for the quick, big buck.

This is not to say that these makers have not earned their reputation...far be it from me to say one way or another, as I have owned none-of-the-above.....precisely because the entire make money off of a cuemakers' work really tends to turn me off. I prefer to deal with makers directly, as when I order a cue, it is not to resell....or for it's potential resell value, but to actually PLAY with. :eek:

There are many fine cuemakers out there who have not been subjected to all the hype, who craft a cue that is very likely every bit as good a player as the makers who are being dealt like they are on the commodities market.

My best advice as to how to deal with this....trust me, I think some of the pricing is a bit whacked myself....is to stay true to yourself, and to get what YOU like, from a cuemaker that YOU would be comfortable with. YOU are the only person you have to please in the long haul.

In the end, the entire flipping market will all come crashing down like a house of cards, and only those makers who have earned their reputation for crafting a fine playing quality cue, with excellent customer service, will be the ones left remained standing.

Lisa
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What an articulate post, this is the kind of post that deserves rep.
My rep gun salutes you, and I don't fire it very often.
 
CocoboloCowboy said:
Quick Question Eddie Wheat if your shop., and supplies burn to the grown today, and you need a check to replace it all. What would the amount on the check be?

Point is what have you got invested in your business?
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Since my shop is part of my house we really cant include that in the equation....

If I said under 50,000 than that would be realistic !

I see what you are getting at, but no one said in order to a successful cuemaker you had to go out and buy a warehouse or start a storefront to be legitimate just to build great cues....

I am fortunate enough to have my shop at my house just as Pete Omen does... this obviously keeps the prices reaonable due to overhead expenses !

However, I DID have the choice on what end of the market I wanted to approach and I chose the one from a players point of view and not a collector aspect of the market....

There IS a demand for quality custom fitted cues at a very very reasonable price and since I'm looking at volume sales I simply want everyone to be able to afford my work and satisifed customers will advertise for me on a global scale....

So even though I understand your intent with your question, we ALL had a choice at the beginning of this venture to decide what aspect of the cuemarket and the few select groups with deep pockets we were going to attack or work twice as hard but sell more cues to players who NEED tools...

I am a player before anything else so I already had my ducks in a row when I decided to go pro with this...

But becasue I do have alot less invested in my equipment and inventory doesnt mean I do NOT have the right few state-of-the-art pieces of equipment to get the job done very well !!!

I'm not an excessive person with my inventory or equip. I did NOT set my shop up to look "cool" for customers to see so I can jack up the price of my cues.... I also do NOT compete on the secondary market so there's another huge chunk of additional money I do NOT have to add to the price of my cues ....

What I 'm saying is that we ALL had a choice to charge what we do from the get-go and just becasue I chose to be humble with my talent regarding prices is no different than another cuemaker who decided he wanted to charge Picasso prices for his art !

All that machinery and inventory is great !!! I personally love it, but I don't need it as of yet......

I'm just trying to solidify myself in the industry as a quality cuemaker and sweating the mortgage payment every month, and it will pay off in the long run, I have dedicated my life to this industry and I'm going to continue to build affordable quality tools for a long long time..


- Eddie Wheat
 
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There's been so much added replies since my original thread. My whole point on prices (and I'm positive alot of you will not agree) is on the first and secondary market. The "high end collectible" cues I can understand their high prices. Even just the high end cues. The work that goes into making some of those cues are incredible. The fine details of Mike Bender (and the hit), the craftsmanship of a Josswest (and the hit), the pure quality of a Keith Josey (and,you guessed it, the hit). I have been to a few reputable cue maker's shops. I have seen the work that goes into high end cues, middle of the road cues, plain jane cues, and bottom of the line sneakys. Like I stated before, I know the game. I know what materials cost. I know for a fact that Keith Josey (I hate to mention names but for creditablity....) made a very ornate ebony,ivory and torquiose cue for Tony Watson. In materials the cue was $500. Don't really know the amount of time but I'm pretty sure it was under a year. The cue sold for $10,000. I'm not calling that ridiculous, I'm just saying I know what what costs and what goes into what. Keith is an outstanding cuemaker. I love his cues. Truly. My post on that sneaky was just that. I still think it's crazy to pay $800 for a sneaky pete. No matter what your name is. Like I said on that post, you're not buying the cue, you're buying the name. I absolutelt agree that if a cue hits awesome and it's the one for you, then the money shouldn't matter. But what if it was a Muecci sneaky pete? Would you still pay $800 for it? Once again, I'm not trash talking at all. Not the cue makers, buyers, traders, or sellers. Me personally, I can't afford the high end cues. I have to sell the cue I have before I buy another one. I love looking at all cues, collectible or not. The whole point of this was that I seen an extremely basic cue for going for a crazy price. With one shaft no less:) One more thing. I know alot of you are buddies with some cue makers and are standing up for them. Great, hope you get a good deal in the future. I know that some cue makers that this is their living, their bread and butter so to speak. I'm not trying to take away from that. Just saying that for a sneaky, that price is stupid. Don't care who made it. Dennis Searing, Gus Szamboti, Jesus Christ, or Sugartree. Sorry for the long post.
 
ridewiththewind said:
Brain (is it really Brain?)....often times cue prices are driven here by what I have fondly coined the "Cue du Jour Syndrome". In other words, that cuemaker which is currently enjoying a great deal of hype, thereby driving up demand, while supplies are low. It changes cuemakers from year to year, but that is the gist of it. Several years ago, Zylr cues was enjoying a similar condition....now those cues are back down to within a reasonable level. The BlueGrass cues go up and down, as RH opens and closes his orders list. I suspect the same will be true as Eric gets more of his orders completed, and those who got into the 'game' early enough flip them over for the quick, big buck.

This is not to say that these makers have not earned their reputation...far be it from me to say one way or another, as I have owned none-of-the-above.....precisely because the entire make money off of a cuemakers' work really tends to turn me off. I prefer to deal with makers directly, as when I order a cue, it is not to resell....or for it's potential resell value, but to actually PLAY with. :eek:

There are many fine cuemakers out there who have not been subjected to all the hype, who craft a cue that is very likely every bit as good a player as the makers who are being dealt like they are on the commodities market.

My best advice as to how to deal with this....trust me, I think some of the pricing is a bit whacked myself....is to stay true to yourself, and to get what YOU like, from a cuemaker that YOU would be comfortable with. YOU are the only person you have to please in the long haul.

In the end, the entire flipping market will all come crashing down like a house of cards, and only those makers who have earned their reputation for crafting a fine playing quality cue, with excellent customer service, will be the ones left remained standing.

Lisa
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Lisa, there is so much wisdom in your words it is astounding!
 
simply put it, "A" gets a sneaky direct from the maker at around $500, then sells it at $800 and "B" finds it reasonable, thus buying it at $800.

Who are we to judge how much a cue is worth as long as someone is willing to fork out the money to buy the cue from a guy with intention of flipping the cue to make a profit????
 
chaozzzsg said:
simply put it, "A" gets a sneaky direct from the maker at around $500, then sells it at $800 and "B" finds it reasonable, thus buying it at $800.

Who are we to judge how much a cue is worth as long as someone is willing to fork out the money to buy the cue from a guy with intention of flipping the cue to make a profit????
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Because that is the "art" mentality.... it's only worth what someone will pay for it !

And that should not be included in an industry that uses the "art" as working instruments....

Let's face it... most people play with thier cues..only a select few hang them on the wall or store them in a vault without ever hitting a ball with them....

I just personally feel it is a direct insult to the cuemaker to have his working instrument to be clasified as art and it never gets to be used for the original purpose it was intended for unless it doesn't contain a shred of playability and it's only good to look at !!!!



- Eddie Wheat
 
A few cumakers come to mind that will not KNOWINGLY make a cue for someone who has a history of flipping, and/or buying cues to be 'closet queens'. They make their cues for PLAYING...and some keep VERY close track of who has what cue, and know when they go up for sale.

Some makers have the 'other' list...people for whom they will not make a cue, for whatever reason.

Lisa
 
ridewiththewind said:
A few cumakers come to mind that will not KNOWINGLY make a cue for someone who has a history of flipping, and/or buying cues to be 'closet queens'. They make their cues for PLAYING...and some keep VERY close track of who has what cue, and know when they go up for sale.

Some makers have the 'other' list...people for whom they will not make a cue, for whatever reason.

Lisa
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You're on my curly bdr with braz rosewood handle and two yellowish shafts list.
I'm going to Alaska next week to find some mammoth teeth for ferrules.:smile:
One foreign-based dealer one time tried to talk me into selling my braz rosewood house cue. He had no chance.
 
JoeyInCali said:
You're on my curly bdr with braz rosewood handle and two yellowish shafts list.
I'm going to Alaska next week to find some mammoth teeth for ferrules.:smile:
One foreign-based dealer one time tried to talk me into selling my braz rosewood house cue. He had no chance.
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:yikes: Is there such a thing as curly BdR?!!! And you do not have to share the Brazilian...I'm thinkin' Tulip/BdR might be very cool. :cool: :smile:
 
ridewiththewind said:
A few cumakers come to mind that will not KNOWINGLY make a cue for someone who has a history of flipping, and/or buying cues to be 'closet queens'. They make their cues for PLAYING...and some keep VERY close track of who has what cue, and know when they go up for sale.

Some makers have the 'other' list...people for whom they will not make a cue, for whatever reason.

Lisa
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How very true !! And as we've all seen evidenced in some recent threads, some buyers have probably made some additions to their own lists....for people from whom they will never order a cue. :smile:

Seriously, Lisa, great insightful post earlier in this thread. It will be interesting to see if the proverbial house of cards (cue flipping) does come crashing down. If the current conditions are any indicator, that may be soon. Some of the 'closet queens' seem have to have already become 'old maids'. My thought is that there will always be a place for it, if demand exceeds the supply and we all continue to live in our "in the moment" society...albeit not like what we've seen in the last decade.
 
ridewiththewind said:
A few cumakers come to mind that will not KNOWINGLY make a cue for someone who has a history of flipping, and/or buying cues to be 'closet queens'. They make their cues for PLAYING...and some keep VERY close track of who has what cue, and know when they go up for sale.

Some makers have the 'other' list...people for whom they will not make a cue, for whatever reason.

Lisa
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Very well said. :thumbup: Can you PM me the list? :D
 
Brain71 said:
There's been so much added replies since my original thread. My whole point on prices (and I'm positive alot of you will not agree) is on the first and secondary market. The "high end collectible" cues I can understand their high prices. Even just the high end cues. The work that goes into making some of those cues are incredible. The fine details of Mike Bender (and the hit), the craftsmanship of a Josswest (and the hit), the pure quality of a Keith Josey (and,you guessed it, the hit). I have been to a few reputable cue maker's shops. I have seen the work that goes into high end cues, middle of the road cues, plain jane cues, and bottom of the line sneakys. Like I stated before, I know the game. I know what materials cost. I know for a fact that Keith Josey (I hate to mention names but for creditablity....) made a very ornate ebony,ivory and torquiose cue for Tony Watson. In materials the cue was $500. Don't really know the amount of time but I'm pretty sure it was under a year. The cue sold for $10,000. I'm not calling that ridiculous, I'm just saying I know what what costs and what goes into what. Keith is an outstanding cuemaker. I love his cues. Truly. My post on that sneaky was just that. I still think it's crazy to pay $800 for a sneaky pete. No matter what your name is. Like I said on that post, you're not buying the cue, you're buying the name. I absolutelt agree that if a cue hits awesome and it's the one for you, then the money shouldn't matter. But what if it was a Muecci sneaky pete? Would you still pay $800 for it? Once again, I'm not trash talking at all. Not the cue makers, buyers, traders, or sellers. Me personally, I can't afford the high end cues. I have to sell the cue I have before I buy another one. I love looking at all cues, collectible or not. The whole point of this was that I seen an extremely basic cue for going for a crazy price. With one shaft no less:) One more thing. I know alot of you are buddies with some cue makers and are standing up for them. Great, hope you get a good deal in the future. I know that some cue makers that this is their living, their bread and butter so to speak. I'm not trying to take away from that. Just saying that for a sneaky, that price is stupid. Don't care who made it. Dennis Searing, Gus Szamboti, Jesus Christ, or Sugartree. Sorry for the long post.
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We all put values on things in life...could be the value of a car, value of a guitar, value of a good woman.....and even our own value perception on pool cues.

I am more than happy to spend $ 1,800.00 on a Searing Sneaky....or Gus Szamboti, Jesus Christ(I'm not sure if there were pool tables back then).

I remember the first cue I bought when I was a kid..it was a Huebler merry widow and I paid about $ 100.00 for it and that was a lot of money for me at the time...others thought what are you nuts paying $ 100.00 for a stick.

Then I remember when I spent five hundred on a cue....I was nervous and excited...five hundred ...what are you nuts.

Then when I spent $ 2,500 ..........

Then when I spent $ 5,000.00.......

Then when I spent $ 7,500.00.......

Then when I spent $ ........................

If you don't want to spend $ 800.00 on a sneaky that's your choice...

Everyone of the cuemankers you listed in your post deserves every dime they get on a cue and then some....

You say you know what it costs and what goes into what.....are you a cuemaker? If not you DO NOT know what goes into building a cue which means you have absolutely no credable point of reference to base your opinions on, only your feelings and as you say limited financial resources.

It involves materials,equipment,time,overhead,knowledge,experience,countless hours of learning and improving,dedication,reputation,heart,
and most importantly talent....

One can appreciate a cue without the knowledge of how it is built...
when you build one yourself and experience the zen of the experience you will understand why guys like me are out there paying what you believe are ridiculous prices.


You say you are not bashing or putting down any cuemakers...well guess what you are doing exactly that. Saying buyers are over paying (ridiculous prices) for cues from these and other cuemakers.

And as for the ..."I know you guys are buddies with some of the cuemakers and are standing up for them and hope you get a deal in the future".

You are right..... we stand up for them because we appreciate who they are, what they do, and the talents they have...and that's pretty much priceless. That's the "good deal" we get.
 
HIRUN526 said:
We all put values on things in life...could be the value of a car, value of a guitar, value of a good woman.....and even our own value perception on pool cues.

I am more than happy to spend $ 1,800.00 on a Searing Sneaky....or Gus Szamboti, Jesus Christ(I'm not sure if there were pool tables back then).

I remember the first cue I bought when I was a kid..it was a Huebler merry widow and I paid about $ 100.00 for it and that was a lot of money for me at the time...others thought what are you nuts paying $ 100.00 for a stick.

Then I remember when I spent five hundred on a cue....I was nervous and excited...five hundred ...what are you nuts.

Then when I spent $ 2,500 ..........

Then when I spent $ 5,000.00.......

Then when I spent $ 7,500.00.......

Then when I spent $ ........................

If you don't want to spend $ 800.00 on a sneaky that's your choice...

Everyone of the cuemankers you listed in your post deserves every dime they get on a cue and then some....

You say you know what it costs and what goes into what.....are you a cuemaker? If not you DO NOT know what goes into building a cue which means you have absolutely no credable point of reference to base your opinions on, only your feelings and as you say limited financial resources.

It involves materials,equipment,time,overhead,knowledge,experience,countless hours of learning and improving,dedication,reputation,heart,
and most importantly talent....

One can appreciate a cue without the knowledge of how it is built...
when you build one yourself and experience the zen of the experience you will understand why guys like me are out there paying what you believe are ridiculous prices.


You say you are not bashing or putting down any cuemakers...well guess what you are doing exactly that. Saying buyers are over paying (ridiculous prices) for cues from these and other cuemakers.

And as for the ..."I know you guys are buddies with some of the cuemakers and are standing up for them and hope you get a deal in the future".

You are right..... we stand up for them because we appreciate who they are, what they do, and the talents they have...and that's pretty much priceless. That's the "good deal" we get.
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WOW !!! :thumbup:



- Eddie Wheat
 
the secondary market makes the prices, its all supply and demand.
i have cues from both makers you stated in your first post, and believe me, it is the best money i spent in my life ever.
i would like to buy from the cuemaker personnaly, because i would like to see my money in the pockets of the maker instead in of someone flippin cues on the secondary market, but if the builder stopped taking orders, no chance!
for myself, i have set amounts that i am willing to spend for a sneaky or a plain jane, but still i prefer spending more on a players cue than just for the looks of it.
so i am keeping my sugartree and my bluegrass and will never selling them.
greetings, David.
 
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