Cuemaker build off

Klink said:
What would be a good way to rate the hit of a cue? Some kind of scale for stiffness or flex, like 1 to 10 maybe? What else could you rate or judge? overall hit, feedback, anything else?
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The balance, weight & dimesions give the "comfort" factor. Comfort is very important for playing. The cue can't be too forward or rearward balanced or it'll feel lopsided, akward. It can't be too thick or thin or it'll not feel natural. It can't be too heavy & can't be too light. There's a science in the "comfort" of a cue. You know if it's right as soon as you pick it up. Shaft taper may seem too stiff or too long, and affect the stroke. Some guys have short compact strokes & some have long fluid strokes. Taper must fit the player's game.

Next would be hard hit vs. soft hit & the full spectrum inbetween. The sound of impact also affects how some feel about a cue. The feedback, feel of the hit is important. Some like a mild feel & some like a jolt. Some like the vibration in their hand, some prefer cush.

Then there's playability. How does it move the ball? Is it stiff or flimsy? Does it apply too much spin or not enough? Do you have to power the stroke to get good speed, or can you smooth stroke & get adequate power? The trick will be quantifying the individual aspects on a 1-10 scale, then have one overall impression scale.

It's an incredible science building cues. Each builder has his own theories & techniques. It's kinda good for players that there are so many builders. Lots of choices. I suspect all the cues will be of high quality & all will be plenty pleasing enough for players to like in terms of fit & finish. The test will be how each cue performs & how that relates to what individual players prefer. It'll be good for everybody involved.

All i'll be doing is ensuring nobody cheats, everybody fits the specified guidlines, then i'll record each builder's name & assign a number to it. From there I group them all together with their individual number, pack them in one case & send them off to begin their journey. This way not even FTG will know which cue is which. It'll simply be cue numbers 1-7. I'll keep the names secure & secret until FTG asks for the reveal. I won't give any reviews or thoughts of comparison unless asked by the builders, and only do it publicly if they all agree & want it. I think it should be a fun build-off for everybody. Hopefully it works as planned & the players will find what works for them & in return the builders will all find some publicity & success.
 
First, to clear the air.

If anyone has a problem with who is building cues for this build off and who is not involved with the build off.....you need to speak to me! Nobody but myself had any say so as to who was in this buildoff. I picked some names that I thought I would like to see how thier cues hit. SOme people suggested cuemakers they would like to see involved....2 people that I wanted involved is.....and 4 other cue builders were submitted by people that wanted to test thier cues....1 cue builder asked if he could join....I and I alone was the deciding factor in who was in this. If there is a problem....come see me!

I thought of asking Eric to see if he would participate, but Eric has a full plate right now with taking care of his kids while his wife is deployed, and getting cues ready for Valley Forge...I did not ask him.....


Eric is doing this to help out the forum. He is donating his time to give an initial assessment of each cue, I trust him 100%. If you do not, I am sorry that is just something you will have to deal with on your own.

This is NOT a Competition to see who is better.....This is for FUN! This is to help some cuemakers get their cues out there to us that have never hit with one of thier cues to test them out and see what kind of hit we like. If we dont like cue #1, that is in NO WAY a bad mark on that particular cue maker....it just means FTGOKIE doesnt like that particular hit. Then we can give feedback on each cue on this forum for all to see, you evaluate whether you want to purchase a cue from cue maker #1 or one of the others.

This is meant to be fun, get some cues in our hands to try out, so we can decide on what we would like. The cuemakers will benefit from this as well. They get thier cue into the hands of FTGOKIE from Ft Gibson Okla...where the local pool hall I shoot at has never heard of a BILLYBOB Custom Telescopic Cue of Death. Then, people at my pool hall can say, hey, FTGOKIE...where can I get me one of the telescopic cues of Death? I can tell them and PRESTO....cuemaker BILLYBOB from Tok, Alaska has buisiness that he would probably never had!

So if anyone has any questions about how this is run, or has a better idea than I have...I am open to suggestions. I was pretty much driving home from work one day and thought of this and threw it out there...Maybe this is a foundation for something bigger for AZ...that is my hopes.
 
ftgokie said:
First, to clear the air.

If anyone has a problem with who is building cues for this build off and who is not involved with the build off.....you need to speak to me! Nobody but myself had any say so as to who was in this buildoff. I picked some names that I thought I would like to see how thier cues hit. SOme people suggested cuemakers they would like to see involved....2 people that I wanted involved is.....and 4 other cue builders were submitted by people that wanted to test thier cues....1 cue builder asked if he could join....I and I alone was the deciding factor in who was in this. If there is a problem....come see me!

I thought of asking Eric to see if he would participate, but Eric has a full plate right now with taking care of his kids while his wife is deployed, and getting cues ready for Valley Forge...I did not ask him.....


Eric is doing this to help out the forum. He is donating his time to give an initial assessment of each cue, I trust him 100%. If you do not, I am sorry that is just something you will have to deal with on your own.

This is NOT a Competition to see who is better.....This is for FUN! This is to help some cuemakers get their cues out there to us that have never hit with one of thier cues to test them out and see what kind of hit we like. If we dont like cue #1, that is in NO WAY a bad mark on that particular cue maker....it just means FTGOKIE doesnt like that particular hit. Then we can give feedback on each cue on this forum for all to see, you evaluate whether you want to purchase a cue from cue maker #1 or one of the others.

This is meant to be fun, get some cues in our hands to try out, so we can decide on what we would like. The cuemakers will benefit from this as well. They get thier cue into the hands of FTGOKIE from Ft Gibson Okla...where the local pool hall I shoot at has never heard of a BILLYBOB Custom Telescopic Cue of Death. Then, people at my pool hall can say, hey, FTGOKIE...where can I get me one of the telescopic cues of Death? I can tell them and PRESTO....cuemaker BILLYBOB from Tok, Alaska has buisiness that he would probably never had!

So if anyone has any questions about how this is run, or has a better idea than I have...I am open to suggestions. I was pretty much driving home from work one day and thought of this and threw it out there...Maybe this is a foundation for something bigger for AZ...that is my hopes.
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I think you have done very well in all respects, I have read the entire thread and you have left no stone unturned in attempting to be fair to all concerned. However, there is one thing that I must disagree with respectfully, and that is the following statement you made in the post above.

This is NOT a Competition to see who is better.....This is for FUN!

While you may believe this, I seriously doubt anyone else does, especially the individuals involved in the cue building. Competition is what this is all about whether you see it or not, and whoever wins also knows that it will increase their business at least here on this forum.

I think you have done a great job.
 
manwon said:
I think you have done very well in all respects, I have read the entire thread and you have left no stone unturned in attempting to be fair to all concerned. However, there is one thing that I must disagree with respectfully, and that is the following statement you made in the post above.

This is NOT a Competition to see who is better.....This is for FUN!

While you may believe this, I seriously doubt anyone else does, especially the individuals involved in the cue building. Competition is what this is all about whether you see it or not, and whoever wins also knows that it will increase their business at least here on this forum.

I think you have done a great job.
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Yes, I can see your point...it is not a competition for me, thats not what it was about. It was about bringing some names out to people who probably have never heard of some of the cuemakers involved....So yea, I can see that it would be a competition...but I dont think that if the person that comes in last has anything to be ashamed of.........unless they just make an absolute piece of junk...but the cuemakers names will be on them at the end of the build off....so they will be making thier best cue possible......

I just dont want this to turn into a cuemaker bash....thats not what its about...this is for fun..and to try out some different cues....and to help the cuemakers out.....

I think this will be a good thing for all involved
 
I think you have selected reputable & honest individuals to perform the testing, and they won't be the kind of people to bash cuemakers. I think it'll work out. I can see how competitiveness will surely reveal itself but hopefully it's friendly competition & nothing foul. As far as I know, the builders are all very nice guys & so are the testers. It should be fun.
 
ftgokie said:
Yes, I can see your point...it is not a competition for me, thats not what it was about. It was about bringing some names out to people who probably have never heard of some of the cuemakers involved....So yea, I can see that it would be a competition...but I dont think that if the person that comes in last has anything to be ashamed of.........unless they just make an absolute piece of junk...but the cuemakers names will be on them at the end of the build off....so they will be making thier best cue possible......

I just dont want this to turn into a cuemaker bash....thats not what its about...this is for fun..and to try out some different cues....and to help the cuemakers out.....

I think this will be a good thing for all involved
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I just dont want this to turn into a cuemaker bash....thats not what its about...this is for fun..and to try out some different cues....and to help the cuemakers out.....

I don't see that happening, and I think you should be commended for your intentions. However, there will always be those who will for whatever reason treat your good intentions in a negative manner, you just can't let those people in any way ruin the good thing you have started.

Take care, and have a good night!!!
 
ftgokie said:
I think it will work out good.....I think this will be a positive thing!
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Bro, I'm totally 100% in support of what you're doing. There will always be NAY sayers as you can't satisfy everyone. It's the intent that counts and I don't foresee any bad blood in what you want to achieve.

GO GO GO!!!
 
BlowFish said:
Bro, I'm totally 100% in support of what you're doing. There will always be NAY sayers as you can't satisfy everyone. It's the intent that counts and I don't foresee any bad blood in what you want to achieve.

GO GO GO!!!
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Its on like Donkey Kong :D
 
I also think this will turn out well!

You guys seem to want to focus on the negative aspects of what I stated, kind of funny to me, seeing how we are all adults here!

Take it for what was said and quit trying to read feelings into it..lol



qbilder said:
Wow. Some people's children. It never stops. This site has went to utter shit. Something fun & positive is being turned into horse crap by people totally uninvolved. Only on AZ.
qbilder said:
Firstly, this is a public forum so all who read it and anticipate the results are involved!

Some people's children are intelligent and call it as they see it. Just because it happens to be you in question this time doesn't mean that I am some idiot troll trying to cause any disruption. I had a genuine suggestion and gave my reasons to back it up.

I'm sorry that doesn't sit well with you.


qbilder said:
The batting back & forth on online forums is a past-time, meaningless BS. Maybe that clears things up a little about me. I can only say what I feel & believe. But anybody can speculate. If anybody has ill feelings towards me, well i'm sorry you feel that way.[QUOTE=qbilder]

That goes for all of us on here, I'm sure. Who doesn't have more in their lives than AZ billiards? C'mon! Meaningless online BS, so why do people get sooo worked up?

Ill will is not where I'm coming from.



qbilder said:
I do see a lot of hatred on this site & that bothers me.[QUOTE=qbilder]


Hatred is an ugly thing.

I have strong opinions and thoughts and since this is a public forum where everyone shares their thoughts I have as much say as anybody else.

Once again, hatred or ill will is not where I'm coming from.


qbilder said:
Call me arrogant, egotistical, jackass, whatever & it's probably true in certain situations. That's fine with me. I'm certainly self-aware. But don't judge my personal character & claim to know what's important to me because you simply don't know. I won't judge anybody, & hope nobody feels self righteous enough to judge me. I indeed have my faults. I don't deny them, nor hide them.
qbilder said:
Again, I'm sure everyone who is well balanced and has an ounce of intelligence recognizes that they have faults and feels this way... However, Nature as it is, we ALL judge each other and others judge us.
That is natural and that is good.

How would you know whom to deal with and whom to steer clear of without judging others?

The realistic people admit they have faults and either try to work on them or decide that they are okay with themselves.


I am not judging you Eric, I was giving my opinions on why I thought you should be in the build-off, which IS a competition. How could it be seen as anything but that?


I have read each of your posts, as well as this whole thread, and I realize, that you don't need to make money selling cues, you don't feel you have to compete with anyone else, and you don't want to take the time from your kids to put together a cue for something that you feel is not worth your time.

I get that.

Even so, I still feel the way I do about it. :)

Agree to disagree.

Enter or don't. Personally, I don't care. I just thought it would make for better COMPETITION!!!
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Eric and I have talked about this.....there are no hard feelings toward anyone at all....This is all just constructive criticism....everyone should be able to take it....

Again....there are no hard feelings about any of it.

The cuemakers involved are well respected on here......
 
The only competitive aspect of this activity is going to be the fit and finish of the cues in relation to the price being asked for them once the results are made known as to which maker belongs to each cue. Assuming the cues are all made within similar measurements, being those that most people who play the game seriously would not find strange in both heft and appearance, there is no way to seriously distinguish them as to their feeling or hit given that every person who tests them will judge them based on their own experiences.

For example a person who favors the way a Meucci hits will gravitate that direction and should tend to give lower marks to a cue with a hit that is more like a Joss West.

To my mind I would like to see the cues inspected by Mr. Crisp before they are sent out with no mention made as to his findings. Then at the end of the tour I would like to see the cues inspected by him again to check the condition of them after traveling throughout the country. That will show how well the cues held up under the conditions.

As for Mr. Crisp building a cue for this activity I would encourage him not to while he has a long waiting list. I am certain that if he were going to then he would not have agreed to donate his time to inspect and insure that the cues are kept within specifications.

I would encourage the person who is managing this event to come up with some kind of grading criteria for those things that are objective based on what the thing actually is, and subjective based on how the person wielding it feels about what it does.

Objective things are;

How well done is the finish.
Are all the parts flush?
Is the pin centered?
Is the cue round?
Is it straight? (this one could be important as the cue travels to determine which ones are able to withstand different climates better)
What is the balance point?

Subjective criteria:

How does the cue feel?
Is the balance comfortable?
What kind of action does it give to the cue ball?
Is it stiff, whippy, medium?
How does it deflect? (arguably this can be measured but the subjective answer is just an opinion based on play)

If nothing else the cuemakers involved should all get some very good feedback on their cues and they should learn a lot about how people in general judge cues by observing their reactions.

As a final thought I would like to suggest that the cuemakers themselves be offered the opportunity to receive the seven cues. Each one will of course know the cue that they made (or maybe not) but they should add their own observations to the pool (anonymously).
 
Gwen's up, fair enough. I don't know you & you don't know me. I'm sure you mean no harm. Possibly I read into your words wrong. Just seemed to be casting unneccesary doubt on my character, intent, & integrity. Again, maybe I read it wrong. If so, i'm sincerely sorry. If not, then there's nothing more to say as I have made myself pretty clear on my point of view.
 
Roadie, I fully intend on keeping my opinions to myself, unless requested by the cuemakers & even then it'll be private. Only if they all want my opinions to be public, then i'll post it at the end of testing. Otherwise, it'll be between each individual builder & myself. My task is not to judge the cues but to assign numbers to names & ensure the cues are built to specification. I, too, agree each builder should have the opportunity to inspect the cues just like the player testers. It would be insightful for them.
 
qbilder said:
I, too, agree each builder should have the opportunity to inspect the cues just like the player testers. It would be insightful for them.
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Great idea! I concure with qbilder and Roadie.

Have they already been included in the tester list or will this postpone the results?
 
It may postpone things a few weeks, but nothing everybody can't deal with. They are, after all, making this happen so at the least they should be given opportunity to see their rivals' work first hand. It's hard to know where you stand without a solid basis of comparison. They will find out what they are doing well & what they need to work on. It's a win for the players.
 
Ok guys and gals.....We need a few more people to host the cues. We would like them to go to diff parts of the country...I think we have North East , Florida, California covered.....if your not from these locations and want to participate...send me a pm...I have a list and just have to try and get these cues all over the us....I dont want them to just be limited to for example...27 people in California :thumbup:

So if you wanna host...lemme know...

We also are in the process of making a sheet on what to grade on the cues being tested....anyone has any ideas on what you would like to be tested let me know also..

Thanks to everyone that is participating and this is rolling along pretty smoothly. Keep it up guys!

Shawn
 
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