cue's path

[Banks]

What has me confused though is how you claim to not be putting spin on the cue ball yet transfering spin to the object ball. I understand where Bob was going when he asked the question about the angle but imo the collision would not induce the kind of spin you are reffering to. Perhaps you are in fact putting a lot of spin on the cue ball and there is something you do that allows more of the spin to transfer to the object ball?

You can induce quite a bit of spin onto a ball by merely hitting it at an angle with the cue ball. Well, it may not necessarily be the amount of spin, but hitting it at such a speed that the CIS(collision induced spin) has the greatest effect upon contact with the rail.

 

[Fatboy]

Can someone tell me where the center of the cueball is?

its in the middle, no matter what side you look at it from(assuming your CB is round):thumbup:

 

[Mikjary]

You use this shot a lot in one pocket and banks. If you hit normal spin you get a double kiss on the short straight backs.

Best,
Mike

 

[stan shuffett]

John, I hope I understood your question.

I am thinking that you use a lot center cue ball.

On many of your shots the cue ball is sliding or essentially stunning the OB.

The stun effect will result in more OB turn than cue ball spin will.

So, I think you are creating your turns with stun. And that is the best way to do it when possible.

Stan Shuffett

 

[Bob Jewett]

... What has me confused though is how you claim to not be putting spin on the cue ball yet transferring spin to the object ball. I understand where Bob was going when he asked the question about the angle but imo the collision would not induce the kind of spin you are referring to. ...

If a cue ball with no spin at all hits the object ball for about a 25-degree cut, the object ball will get as much spin as it ever does from the cue ball. This has been measured and is easy to demonstrate. Those observations and measurements (and the theory that explains them) seem to conflict with your statement above.

This aspect of throw and transferred spin is explained in this article of Dr. Dave's: http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2007/june07.pdf where he also explains why harder shots are less effective at getting throw and transferred spin.

Measurements that match the theory shown in that article (and which were done long before the article was written) are here: http://www.sfbilliards.com/throw.gif That plot shows throw for stun shots but it is well known that the amount of side spin on an object ball is directly proportional to how much it is thrown.

 

[Banks]

I think he's trying to get the explanation down for his video before somebody at 1P.org tells him he doesn't know what he's doing.

 

[bbb]

my 2 cents

john use a stripe or a rempe ball or something that will show us where you aim and where you hit
those before and after might help explain the answer to your question

 

[(((Satori)))]

If a cue ball with no spin at all hits the object ball for about a 25-degree cut, the object ball will get as much spin as it ever does from the cue ball. This has been measured and is easy to demonstrate. Those observations and measurements (and the theory that explains them) seem to conflict with your statement above.

This aspect of throw and transferred spin is explained in this article of Dr. Dave's: http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2007/june07.pdf where he also explains why harder shots are less effective at getting throw and transferred spin.

Measurements that match the theory shown in that article (and which were done long before the article was written) are here: http://www.sfbilliards.com/throw.gif That plot shows throw for stun shots but it is well known that the amount of side spin on an object ball is directly proportional to how much it is thrown.

Thanks, I will read up on that.

 

[lfigueroa]

Who thinks that you can alter the path of the cueball and the object with your cue's path or (pass,if you will) as you go through the cueball? All the while.. hitting the cueball in the center.What I'm talking about is hitting the cueball in the middle but going through the cball at a different angle.
Hope this question makes since.I think i can and do this but not 100% sure about it.Thanks,John B.

John, I'm certainly not in your weight class as a player but one thing I've always felt and have mentioned many times in the past is that: on those rare occasions that I'm playing really well, I feel like I can go through the center of the CB at different angles.

No science to go with that. Just my feeling as a player of 40+ years.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Jal]

Mr. Jim,

Well stated. Many want to elude to the very short tip contact time as making some things impossibly. However if the motion is incorporated or put into operation prior to contact some or many of those things can be accomplished, especially with a soft tip that allows maybe as much as twice the contact time of a hard tip.

The effects may seem small, but even 1 mm can make the difference between a ball that drops & one that gets rattled or ponited out. To me, any difference IS significant.

Best Regards to You &

English, thank you and ya doesnt has to call me Mr. J.

As was indicated earlier, and I think you're indicating agreement, if you haven't done it before the tip reaches the ball, whatever that 'it' may be, it isn't going to happen. There just isn't enough time once contact is initiated. The longer contact time of a softer tip doesn't really gain you much of anything, practically speaking. It's also very small compared to, say, the time it takes to deliver the cue during your stroke.

I can't remember the numbers offhand, but I think twice the contact time for a soft tip compared to a hard one is about right. Some people infer that you can get more action on the cueball with a soft tip because of this. But, that longer contact time is countered by the fact that the average force during that longer collision is proportionally smaller (i.e., about one-half if the period is doubled). In other words, the action imparted to the cueball is really a function of other things, things that are essentially set up before contact begins.

Just an aside.

Jim

 

[J-Flo]

I found it

Who thinks that you can alter the path of the cueball and the object with your cue's path or (pass,if you will) as you go through the cueball? All the while.. hitting the cueball in the center.What I'm talking about is hitting the cueball in the middle but going through the cball at a different angle.
Hope this question makes since.I think i can and do this but not 100% sure about it.Thanks,John B.

Im a you tube junkie and I came across this vid with Efren and the camera work is incredible. At 1:01:35 of the video you can see efren use a sweeping motion across the face of the ball. Severl times in this video you can see efran stroking and his stick looks like a piece of spaghetti . There is so much movement that it make you wonder how he ever makes aball. But in reality it just shows how much control he has over the shaft and cue ball. Here is the link , you love the slow motion after every rack.
http://youtu.be/fEW3RV2Ox-o

 

[Ratta]

maybe it's a t.o.o. (touch of outside)

randyg.....:grin:

l-m-a-o!
:d

 

[John Brumback]

Is this for shots where the object ball is cut by about 20-30 degrees?

No Bob not at all.I do it alot when the ball is straight on.Are you thinking collision induced? If you are... it could be but how do I do it when I'm shooting straight on or into to the oball? That's the part I would like to be able to explain and or show better.Thanks for your time. John B.

 

[John Brumback]

You use this shot a lot in one pocket and banks. If you hit normal spin you get a double kiss on the short straight backs.

Best,
Mike

Right on the $. Thanks.John B.

 

[John Brumback]

John, I hope I understood your question.

I am thinking that you use a lot center cue ball.

On many of your shots the cue ball is sliding or essentially stunning the OB.

The stun effect will result in more OB turn than cue ball spin will.

So, I think you are creating your turns with stun. And that is the best way to do it when possible.

Stan Shuffett

Hey Stan,glad to hear from ya!! You know I use alot of center,as you've seen it up close and personable,lol. You make it sound so simple and I guess it is.
That's what I have always called it. I stun the cball every chance I get.But it's so hard for folks to grasp this concept.What do you think about this term.."the gear effect"? Do you think this term goes with what we are talking about? I think it does. John B.

 

[John Brumback]

John, I'm certainly not in your weight class as a player but one thing I've always felt and have mentioned many times in the past is that: on those rare occasions that I'm playing really well, I feel like I can go through the center of the CB at different angles.

No science to go with that. Just my feeling as a player of 40+ years.

Lou Figueroa

Me too,Lou. And I'm glad to hear that.I don't think I have ever heard anyone mention it though.But you said you have,and that's cool.

I don't think it's a swooping motion or any wrist turning and I don't think the tip has anything to do with it either.Do you? I never have liked science when it comes to a pool and not to worry..I won't knock your action Thanks for your time,bud.John B.

 

[Fast Lenny]

Hey John. I was recently showing someone an aiming method and how using english at speed did not change where I was aiming on the shot. He said show me and I did, we set up the cue ball on end rail and the object on the other with both lined up with one another, the cue ball was 6 inches away from the rail. I would put extreme right or left english on the cue ball and hit center of the object ball on the other side of the table with speed.

He noticed I was aiming center ball until my last stroke where I would hit the cue ball with whatever spin I wanted. I know there are players out there who do this playing a high level, I also feel that it might cause the cue ball to deflect a little less too. What are your feeling on this and do you do this too?

P.S. Take down the banks this year bud! :thumbup:

 

[lfigueroa]

Me too,Lou. And I'm glad to hear that.I don't think I have ever heard anyone mention it though.But you said you have,and that's cool.

I don't think it's a swooping motion or any wrist turning and I don't think the tip has anything to do with it either.Do you? I never have liked science when it comes to a pool and not to worry..I won't knock your action Thanks for your time,bud.John B.

You're right, it's not a swooping motion or wrist action, nor is it the tip.

I think it is just a particular setup/stroke that allows you "stab" through the CB at various angles. When I'm doing it I feel like I can generate all kinds of different CB paths and action with little effort.

Lou Figueroa

 

[mikepage]

Hey Stan,glad to hear from ya!! You know I use alot of center,as you've seen it up close and personable,lol. You make it sound so simple and I guess it is.
That's what I have always called it. I stun the cball every chance I get.But it's so hard for folks to grasp this concept.What do you think about this term.."the gear effect"? Do you think this term goes with what we are talking about? I think it does. John B.

OK I'm not Stan...

But I think this is a good example of why "gear effect" is a bad term.

Sure it's a mental model that helps people to understand why there is a spin-induced effect at all. But beyond that it leads straight away to some predictions that are far from what actually happens.

For instance, with gearing, the two balls should have the same amount of spin after the collision (because they were locked together). They don't.

Also, with gearing, you should get more spin on the object ball when the cueball is spinning faster. Again, generally you don't.

For the particular case of turning a bank with a straight shot, stunning a cueball with a small amount (like a quarter of maximum) of sidespin hit somewhat firmly just might be the best you can do. With 25% sidespin, you can get fully half the maximum induced spin on the object ball. The good thing is that is true at pretty much any speed. So you can hit firmly enough that the induced spin isn't rubbed off by the time the object ball gets to the rail.

So this doesn't explain NO spin on the cueball (I think we might have a physical impossibility problem there), it does explain relatively low spin on the cueball.

The bottom line is if you hit farther out on the cueball, then you have to hit softly. But if you hit only a little bit out on the cueball, you can get good effect at any speed.

 

[John Brumback]

OK I'm not Stan...

But I think this is a good example of why "gear effect" is a bad term.

Sure it's a mental model that helps people to understand why there is a spin-induced effect at all. But beyond that it leads straight away to some predictions that are far from what actually happens.

For instance, with gearing, the two balls should have the same amount of spin after the collision (because they were locked together). They don't.

Also, with gearing, you should get more spin on the object ball when the cueball is spinning faster. Again, generally you don't.

For the particular case of turning a bank with a straight shot, stunning a cueball with a small amount (like a quarter of maximum) of sidespin hit somewhat firmly just might be the best you can do. With 25% sidespin, you can get fully half the maximum induced spin on the object ball. The good thing is that is true at pretty much any speed. So you can hit firmly enough that the induced spin isn't rubbed off by the time the object ball gets to the rail.

So this doesn't explain NO spin on the cueball (I think we might have a physical impossibility problem there), it does explain relatively low spin on the cueball.

The bottom line is if you hit farther out on the cueball, then you have to hit softly. But if you hit only a little bit out on the cueball, you can get good effect at any speed.

Ok and thanks.So maybe it's like when I say.."just a half of tip of english from the center of the call" will turn the oball the most for bank shots.So maybe it just takes so little of english (to do it) that the turn on my cball is just not very noticeable if at all. It does seem to me that I have to use a certain amount of speed to get the full effect.Thanks for the good info and help. John B.