curving an object ball....

[lfigueroa]

I didn't see that so I don't know if it's true or not, but if it is, doesn't it prove that discussions like this are a good thing? If people said a few years ago that you couldn't transfer spin, and JB convinced them you could, we've all learned something. I know I've read lots of Dr. Dave-type articles on transferring spin, especially for bank shots, so it has now become common knowledge.

I really don't get the attitude in here that you can't question anything, that it's wrong to try to prove or demonstrate something. What if JB is wrong about what he thinks is happening - then we've discovered a new myth. How cool would that be? I bet JB would be the first to agree and find it interesting if what he thought was a curve was really a jump or whatever. Or, better yet, what if it can be finally definitively captured on video so that everyone who looks at it can agree? Either way it's a win for everyone, right? So why the nastiness?

The whole thing does have a bit of the "trial of Galileo" flavor to it.

Lou Figueroa

 

[ENGLISH!]

When did history start?

1995?

 

[ENGLISH!]

I'm just wondering what the core issue is?
The ball doesn't move in a straight line off the rail.
Anyone who does it or who has seen it KNOWS that.

So what's the problem then?
If it's curving from the get go, or hops in the air and then changes trajectory, or if aliens come down from outer space and hit the object ball with an invisible ray gun, IT'S STILL NOT TRAVELING IN A STRAIGHT LINE OFF THE RAIL.

So what is this? Is it a semantic thing where we must break this shot down into its sub parts and define every little detail of what is happening?

It doesn't travel in a straight line. THATS IT!
Who cares if it's in the air or on the surface the entire time.

What do you people want?
It's amazing how dense some people are with their need to categorize something.

This shot reminds me of when I used to watch bowling on TV as a kid.
You had these guys ripping this bowling ball down the lane, and the ball had tons of spin on it, and it would go straight, before BREAKING, and making a left turn.

And all this because a World Champion wants to give some insight into how they do things.

No wonder champions bail on this forum left and right. You can't say anything without a bunch of people trying to cut them down at every opportunity.

Let this be a lesson to champions who choose to share their trade.
DON'T SHARE and let everyone stay ignorant.

Let them all EARN insight the old fashioned way.
You pound them for lots of money, and give them a nugget of info for the donation.
J.B. should take all his DVDs off the market and let the pool world learn the hard way.
Through SACRIFICE.

:thumbup2:

Or... just don't try to share here on AZB.

Find other outlets to give back.

CJ had a very thick skin but he was finally run off when he tired of all of the senseless crap to the point of where he was spending more time dealing with the crap than doing what he was trying to do...

and there is nothing wrong with selling a DVD to put matters out to where it is in solid form & can possibly help more individuals down the road.

and there is nothing wrong with making a bit of money for the effort to a least cover production costs & put some 'change' in their pockets.

I've been selectively censored from the aiming forum. Perhaps AZB needs a Pro Section were 'science guys' are prohibited from posting. Or a science only section for them.

Just a thought.

 

[Corwyn_8]

How about any of the scientists playing John some bank pool for some cash. I want to see their cash curve right into John's "pocket".

Because that isn't the question in discussion?

There is an offer of cash on the table, $1000 for a single shot. Surely no pool player worth admiring could possibly pass that up.

Thank you kindly.

 

[dr_dave]

The brain trust swore that you couldn't transfer enough english to the object ball for it to matter a few years ago... (please don't make me link stuff... you haven't deleted them all and wayback works). AND Brumback made you change your song.....

Chris,

Why do you keep attempting to re-write history on this topic? You might believe what you are writing, but it is a grossly inaccurate.

Anyone who has been active on Internet pool forums for a long time, and has a decent memory, will know that the "science guys" have worked really hard to convince many players, some instructors, and even some pros that throw and spin transfer are important in pool. This is also clear to anyone who read the public debate about throw and spin transfer between Bob Jewett and Mike Sigel on the pages of Billiards Digest (in the late 1990s, I think), or has read my book The Illustrated Principles of Pool and Billiards (published in 2004) which covers both topics in detail, or has seen the demonstrations, examples, and proofs on my spin transfer and throw resource pages. I have also written numerous articles in Billiards Digest dealing with throw and spin transfer, starting with the August, 2006 issue.

Chris, please try to be more careful with your "facts" in the future. If you keep repeating this same claim on AZB and Facebook (I have seen it several times already), I will keep re-posting this same reply so people can do the fact-checking on their own. Somebody has to keep you honest and prevent you from attempting to re-write history.

When did history start?

1995?

Certainly not a few years ago.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Because that isn't the question in discussion?

There is an offer of cash on the table, $1000 for a single shot. Surely no pool player worth admiring could possibly pass that up.

Thank you kindly.

I can't see why so many insults are flowing from this thread. The question is, does the OB curve? Money has been placed to prove it does. Post the video of it curving. Or even better, try being civil to your fellow pool players.

Sent from my SM-T530 using Tapatalk

Agreed!

In case people missed it the first time, here it is again, with additional info:

That's why Bob's $1500 challenge is so excellent. It totally eliminates the potential for optical illusions or deception. If the ball is curving, it should be able to get around the middle peg. Place the board wherever you want and at any angle you want, place the middle peg wherever you want, use more than one middle peg if you want, hit the shot as many times as you want, move the board and middle peg(s) as many times as you want to make adjustments, use "little white donuts" and/or rail markers and/or lasers to help you with aiming and alignment adjustments, and even use a thicker board if you want. If this challenge cannot be beat after a large number of attempts and adjustments, then it is probably safe to say that bending a bank is probably not a reliable and important technique that can be used with confidence in an actual game situation.

Stop with all of the claims. Just do it, and post a video. It could potentially be worth $1500. Until that happens, I don't see any need for further smack talk, woofing, or immature schoolyard insults.

I honestly still think bending a bank a useful amount is possible with the right combination of cut angle, spin, speed, cue elevation, angle into the cushion, ball height at cushion contact, and ball/cushion/rail/cloth conditions (humidity included). I just haven't seen it yet.

Sincerely,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

I'm just wondering what the core issue is?
The ball doesn't move in a straight line off the rail.
Anyone who does it or who has seen it KNOWS that.

What we think we see isn't always what is happening. Check out how straight the stiffened and shortened banks go in the following videos:
HSV B.41 - bank speed effects, with Bob Jewett
NV B.95 - Post-rebound spin, angle, and curve for stunned kicks and banks
NV H.3 - Pool Myth Buster - Bending Bank Shots

Also, here's a pertinent except from one of my recent posts:

The problem with anecdotal statements about what people claim they have seen in person is: our eyes and brain aren't fast enough to accurately visualize the path of the OB with fast-speed banks. As several people have pointed out in the thread, there are too many visual clues that can create optical illusions and mislead us:

- the ball can compress and slide down the cushion a significant amount during rebound.
- the ball typically bounces into the air (sometimes high, with multiple subsequent bounces) after rebound
- the ball typically has a combination of sidespin and topspin after rebound that might visually look like masse or bank-bending spin.
- the ball "turns" when it heads into the pocket if it hits the cushion adjacent to the pocket first.
- we are used to seeing slower-speed banks curve long (due to incoming topspin), so a fast-speed bank might seem to curve short in comparison.

Again, when all of this happens very quickly, or if poor-quality video is being used, our eyes (and brains) can easily be fooled into thinking something is happening that is not. Freddy's "bank benders" included and analyzed in my recently-posted video are good examples of this.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

So you are saying, that a ball not traveling in a straight line off the rail, regardless of why, isn't curving.
Is that it?
You are saying that this is the sum of two different trajectories?

 

[12squared]

Bob's $1500 challenge[/URL] is so excellent. It totally eliminates the potential for optical illusions or deception. If the ball is curving, it should be able to get around the middle peg. Place the board wherever you want and at any angle you want, place the middle peg wherever you want, use more than one middle peg if you want, hit the shot as many times as you want, move the board and middle peg(s) as many times as you want to make adjustments, use "little white donuts" and/or rail markers and/or lasers to help you with aiming and alignment adjustments, and even use a thinner board if you want. If someone cannot beat this challenge after a large number of attempts and adjustments, then it is probably safe to say that bending a bank is probably not a reliable and important technique that can be used with confidence in an actual game situation.

Stop with all of the claims. Just do it, and post a video. It could potentially be worth $1500.

Sincerely,
Dave

Dave,

I think you may have misunderstood Bob's offer. Here is his original quote: "It's a lot of work to set up a test like this, so the banker needs to be rewarded. If anyone does this with me present and allows me to video tape a successful bank, I'll give that person $1000. If they can get me to do the shot, I'll give them another $500."

Bob must be there in person and he is the one taking the video ($1,000) and, if it's teachable where that person can show Bob how to do it, another $500. It does not appear that Bob was offering the money for a video of it being done without him being there. Just want to make sure that Bob's offer is clear so there is no disappointment if a video is published and no reward.

I may be wrong so it may be a good idea for you to or Bob to confirm this.

Please continue...
Dave

 

[ENGLISH!]

Certainly not a few years ago.

Regards,
Dave

Well, you may have him there, Dave.:wink:

But sometimes the word "few" is used incorrectly or relatively speaking.

10 or 15 years to a 90 year old might be consider a "few"...

or 25 or 50 years might be a 'few' relative to ALL of "history" :wink:

 

[dr_dave]

That's why Bob's $1500 challenge is so excellent. It totally eliminates the potential for optical illusions or deception. If the ball is curving, it should be able to get around the middle peg. Place the board wherever you want and at any angle you want, place the middle peg wherever you want, use more than one middle peg if you want, hit the shot as many times as you want, move the board and middle peg(s) as many times as you want to make adjustments, use "little white donuts" and/or rail markers and/or lasers to help you with aiming and alignment adjustments, and even use a thicker board if you want. If this challenge cannot be beat after a large number of attempts and adjustments, then it is probably safe to say that bending a bank is probably not a reliable and important technique that can be used with confidence in an actual game situation.

Stop with all of the claims. Just do it, and post a video. It could potentially be worth $1500. Until that happens, I don't see any need for further smack talk, woofing, or immature schoolyard insults.

I honestly still think bending a bank a useful amount is possible with the right combination of cut angle, spin, speed, cue elevation, angle into the cushion, ball height at cushion contact, and ball/cushion/rail/cloth conditions (humidity included). I just haven't seen it yet.

Dave,

I think you may have misunderstood Bob's offer. Here is his original quote: "It's a lot of work to set up a test like this, so the banker needs to be rewarded. If anyone does this with me present and allows me to video tape a successful bank, I'll give that person $1000. If they can get me to do the shot, I'll give them another $500."

Bob must be there in person and he is the one taking the video ($1,000) and, if it's teachable where that person can show Bob how to do it, another $500. It does not appear that Bob was offering the money for a video of it being done without him being there. Just want to make sure that Bob's offer is clear so there is no disappointment if a video is published and no reward.

I may be wrong so it may be a good idea for you to or Bob to confirm this.

Please continue...
Dave

Actually, I think Bob would honor the $1000 offer if the video were totally convincing (and used the full-size 1" board). I think he would also honor the additional $500 offer if the video provided enough information to allow Bob to recreate the shot on his own. Bob certainly has enough pool skills to execute a shot if he knows how to hit it. And if Bob and I are both convinced that the video is legitimate (with no trickery), I would be happy to add an additional $500 to bring the total to $2000. Sadly, that's bigger than the top prize at many pool tournaments, and it won't take a full day or more of world-class play to win. You just need to be able to execute one shot!

Regards,
Dave

PS: Bob probably isn't awake yet in California. That's why I spoke for him. I also like spending his money.

 

[ExilePreacher]

..............

 

[ENGLISH!]

Dave,

I think you may have misunderstood Bob's offer. Here is his original quote: "It's a lot of work to set up a test like this, so the banker needs to be rewarded. If anyone does this with me present and allows me to video tape a successful bank, I'll give that person $1000. If they can get me to do the shot, I'll give them another $500."

Bob must be there in person and he is the one taking the video ($1,000) and, if it's teachable where that person can show Bob how to do it, another $500. It does not appear that Bob was offering the money for a video of it being done without him being there. Just want to make sure that Bob's offer is clear so there is no disappointment if a video is published and no reward.

I may be wrong so it may be a good idea for you to or Bob to confirm this.

Please continue...
Dave

:thumbup2: I could say something more but it seems that some seem to be have been offended & are getting upset.

As to the shot as laid out it's a fools challenge. The pegs where placed, especially the one near the rail limits the options to basically one exact requirement of combination of spin, speed, & cloth friction. The ball MUSTgo to the left of the first peg. That limits the angle that the ball can be cut. If the ball curves too quickly it hit the peg in the middle of table & can be said to have not curved.

It's almost like putting two balls or pegs as a gate in the middle of the table with only a balls width between them & saying now bank the ball into the pocket through the gate.

Who cares if the ball goes through a gate just slightly wider than a balls width when the whole pocket is available? How many times will that situation ever come up.

The set up also requires a curve of a certain amount. the right side of the ball must clear the 1st. peg & the left side the 2nd peg & the right side the 3rd. peg & there is only an inch between the insides of the pegs.

It's too specific of a requirement. It's a challenge for a fool to take.

One could be there for an entire day & getting a curve on the ball every time & never get that exact one.

Mr. Jewett's money is fairly safe.

 

[dr_dave]

That's why Bob's $1500 challenge is so excellent. It totally eliminates the potential for optical illusions or deception. If the ball is curving, it should be able to get around the middle peg. Place the board wherever you want and at any angle you want, place the middle peg wherever you want, use more than one middle peg if you want, hit the shot as many times as you want, move the board and middle peg(s) as many times as you want to make adjustments, use "little white donuts" and/or rail markers and/or lasers to help you with aiming and alignment adjustments, and even use a thicker board if you want. If this challenge cannot be beat after a large number of attempts and adjustments, then it is probably safe to say that bending a bank is probably not a reliable and important technique that can be used with confidence in an actual game situation.

Stop with all of the claims. Just do it, and post a video. It could potentially be worth $1500. Until that happens, I don't see any need for further smack talk, woofing, or immature schoolyard insults.

I honestly still think bending a bank a useful amount is possible with the right combination of cut angle, spin, speed, cue elevation, angle into the cushion, ball height at cushion contact, and ball/cushion/rail/cloth conditions (humidity included). I just haven't seen it yet.

Dave,

I think you may have misunderstood Bob's offer. Here is his original quote: "It's a lot of work to set up a test like this, so the banker needs to be rewarded. If anyone does this with me present and allows me to video tape a successful bank, I'll give that person $1000. If they can get me to do the shot, I'll give them another $500."

Bob must be there in person and he is the one taking the video ($1,000) and, if it's teachable where that person can show Bob how to do it, another $500. It does not appear that Bob was offering the money for a video of it being done without him being there. Just want to make sure that Bob's offer is clear so there is no disappointment if a video is published and no reward.

I may be wrong so it may be a good idea for you to or Bob to confirm this.

Actually, I think Bob would honor the $1000 offer if the video were totally convincing (and used the full-size 1" board). I think he would also honor the additional $500 offer if the video provided enough information to allow Bob to recreate the shot on his own. Bob certainly has enough pool skills to execute a shot if he knows how to hit it. And if Bob and I are both convinced that the video is legitimate (with no trickery), I would be happy to add an additional $500 to bring the total to $2000. Sadly, that's bigger than the top prize at many pool tournaments, and it won't take a full day or more of world-class play to win. You just need to be able to execute one shot!

Regards,
Dave

PS: Bob probably isn't awake yet in California. That's why I spoke for him. I also like spending his money.

:thumbup2: I could say something but it seems that some seem to be have been offended & are getting upset.

I'm not sure if you are referring to me or Bob or not; but if you are, at least we have put our money where our mouths are. It often seems like that's what it unfortunately takes in the pool world.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Absolutely!! I've collected a lot of Billiards books and videos over the last 30 years. My philosophy was that if there was one piece of info in the book/video that helped my game in a significant way it would be worth the cost. Of all those materials, only one book has been returned to the shelf after reading, never to be opened again: The Illustrated Principles of Pool and Billiards. I couldn't find anything in the book that made it worth the investment in either money or reading time.

Thank you for purchasing my book. I appreciate the business. :grin-square:

Regards,
Dave

 

[ExilePreacher]

..............

 

[ENGLISH!]

Absolutely!! I've collected a lot of Billiards books and videos over the last 30 years. My philosophy was that if there was one piece of info in the book/video that helped my game in a significant way it would be worth the cost. Of all those materials, only one book has been returned to the shelf after reading, never to be opened again: The Illustrated Principles of Pool and Billiards. I couldn't find anything in the book that made it worth the investment in either money or reading time.

I think anyone of any real playing ability knows what John is saying.

Why would any high caliber player come to AZB to tell how they do what they do...

when they will first be required to change their language as to how they talk about matters & then have to give scientific explanations as to every parameter that is in play for every thing that they say.

What high caliber player wants to submit themselves to those requirements.

They will just do as someone said & say, 'to hell with y'all... learn it all on your own.'.

Best Wishes to You & Yours,
Rick

 

[ENGLISH!]

I'm not sure if you are referring to me or Bob or not; but if you are, at least we have put our money where our mouths are. It often seems like that's what it unfortunately takes in the pool world.

Regards,
Dave

Dave,

Please see my posts regarding the "fools challenge'.

Regards,
Rick

 

[ENGLISH!]

I would say "you're welcome" but my rectum is still sore from being conned by the description given on the back cover: "comprehensive" (not even close) and "authoritative" (pishaw!!!). I do have to hand it to you though, I'm not hustled easy but you (or the publisher) got me.

Man, they must be playing North Dallas Forty on some Network TV.

Far Out!

I would post a link but it has some language that is against the rules here.

 

[ExilePreacher]

.............