Custom Cue

[skins]

Skins, all I head when you speak is "WAH WAH, WAH WAH WAH, CNC is awesome, WAH WAWAH WAWAWAH" (sounds like Charlie Brown's teacher).

Don't call yourself "custom" and pump yourself up to be anything more than a high end production shop. When you add machines to your operation that you don't have to operate (I have to move my machines WITH MY HANDS), you've become a production house. You are a Falcon, Joss, Viking, McDermott, except you can't produce their volumes, and you rely on snob appeal and collectors to pay your bills. I don't see anything wrong with it, except the fact that any of the houses listed above could make the exact same cue that you do, except they'd only charge 1/5 the price.

God bless capitalism. I'm one of the ones that woke up and smelled the glue and realized that the cues you construct are no better than the stuff that TaiCan produces for Predator. Your cues have laminated cores. So do theirs. Your cues have radials, theirs have Uni-locs (the Falcons have radials, though). They have interchangeable shafts, so do you. They have CNC inlay machinery, so do you. The only thing they don't have is a signature on it. Their guys can produce beautiful CNC inlaid cues. Look at the Musashi line from Helmstetter, or Mezz Cues. However, when they do it, they don't charge $4-5k for their work. They realized the machine reduced the man hours, and they charge accordingly. How much would you pay someone to glue inlays into precut pockets? The same amount you'd pay the guy to bag your groceries.

That's my point. Now, please, tell me where I'm wrong.

ok..heres where you're wrong:
you're calling all these, among others, production cue makers:

Richard Black
Dennis Searing
Joel Herceck
Bill Stroud,
Ernie Gutierrez
Tony Sciannella
Bob Manzino
Jerry Mcworter
Keith Josey
Leonard Bludworth
Thomas Wayne
Marcus Dienst
Tad Kohara
Richard Chudy
Bob Runde
Paul Drexler
Paul Mottey
James White
Tim Scruggs
Joe Gold
Mike Bender..................

you are truly misguided.........

 

[SPINDOKTOR]

Im always trying new cues, mainly production cues. I look for performance, I could care less who made the cue, I have found that to get superior playability you must go custom, the materials used are far superior to cookie cutter cue makers. Not that producion cues are bad, its just they buy thier materials in serious bulk, whereas the custom cue maker may hand select all thier materials espeacialy the wood, and in my mind, a superior material will yield a superior product. This directly relates to playability to me. Performance is king, you can have the most expensive production cue on the market, all the inlays in the world, and pick up a 250$ custom and be blown away.


The only real question is where are the cuemakers going to get quality materials in the future? I suspect this already becomming a problem...

So yes a custom is better than production as long as the materials used are superior imho, otherwise it would be best to buy a production where they have money to burn on R&D..


SPINDOKTOR

 

[trustyrusty]

Im always trying new cues, mainly production cues. I look for performance, I could care less who made the cue, I have found that to get superior playability you must go custom, the materials used are far superior to cookie cutter cue makers. Not that producion cues are bad, its just they buy thier materials in serious bulk, whereas the custom cue maker may hand select all thier materials espeacialy the wood, and in my mind, a superior material will yield a superior product. This directly relates to playability to me. Performance is king, you can have the most expensive production cue on the market, all the inlays in the world, and pick up a 250$ custom and be blown away.


The only real question is where are the cuemakers going to get quality materials in the future? I suspect this already becomming a problem...

So yes a custom is better than production as long as the materials used are superior imho, otherwise it would be best to buy a production where they have money to burn on R&D..


SPINDOKTOR

But you are forgetting that it can work in the opposite as well. You can have for arguments sake Southwest build you a cue, you wait 6-8 years for it to come, and when it does - IT'S AS BEAUTIFUL A CUE AS YOU'VE EVER SEEN. In the mean time (waiting for your custom made beauty), you are playing with a lower end Joss, and playing well with it for that matter. But, noe the SW comes, and you run to the poolhall to give it a try. It's a bit different, you shoot ok with it, but it's gonna take some getting used to. Now, in your head, this SW is AWESOME, I mean it cost a buncha money, so it better be. It's pretty, and everyone you show it to gushes over it. The woods were hand selected, you waited forever, you know what it's worth on the open market, etc. But something in the back of you head says you just might like the hit of the Joss better....CAN'T BE, you just need to get used to it is all.......believe me, it happens, and quite a few on here wouldn't EVER admit it if it happened to them. I'm in no way implying that the cheaper Joss hits better than the SW, but in your head you sure are gonna tell yourself the SW plays better - even if it doesn't - for justification purposes.

BTW, hand selecting the wood has quite a bit more to do with asthetics than it does playability. Just food for thought.

 

[JoeyInCali]

BTW, hand selecting the wood has quite a bit more to do with asthetics than it does playability. Just food for thought.
I beg to differ.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Im always trying new cues, mainly production cues. I look for performance, I could care less who made the cue, I have found that to get superior playability you must go custom, the materials used are far superior to cookie cutter cue makers. Not that producion cues are bad, its just they buy thier materials in serious bulk, whereas the custom cue maker may hand select all thier materials espeacialy the wood, and in my mind, a superior material will yield a superior product. This directly relates to playability to me. Performance is king, you can have the most expensive production cue on the market, all the inlays in the world, and pick up a 250$ custom and be blown away.


The only real question is where are the cuemakers going to get quality materials in the future? I suspect this already becomming a problem...

So yes a custom is better than production as long as the materials used are superior imho, otherwise it would be best to buy a production where they have money to burn on R&D..


SPINDOKTOR

LMFAO - the custom cuemaker buys better wood. Joss Cues is owned by Dan Janes. He is one of the fathers of custom cuemaking (his business partner was Bill Stroud). Gordon Hart owns Viking. He's been around since the days of Szamboti. Jim McDermott has thrown away more wood than most custom cue makers have ever bought.

Do you think the selection process used by these guys are any different than say Evan Clarke at Schon? I think not. The owners of the production houses paid their dues as "custom" makers before they went into high production volumes. We lose a custom cue maker from the marketplace at least once a year. The production houses are still here. Why is that? Because Thorsten Hohmann with his $250 Lucasi can beat you or I playing with a $5k Josey or Southwest. They make great cues for the dollar. "Custom" cue makers make great dollars for their cues. The sum of the parts wouldn't add up to $250 on some of the $2k-3k cues I've seen. The money you paid is directly related to the time spent on the cue. The production guys have figured out that they make a certain number of attractive designs, and go after the players. The custom makers also have a certain number of designs, but hug their wood more, and kiss every cue between turns, thus making a cue that plays MUCH better than production cues.

 

[Jack Madden]

By this standard, TaiCan in Taiwan is a custom cuemaker (CNC), same as Falcon, same as.....

The guy who programmed Keith's CNC machine was the same guy who used to program Dan Breggin's machine (Colorado Cues). There are a few guys who program their own machines, otherwise most cuemakers buy their designs. Hardly seems "custom" to me.

Shawn

I build custom cues and do not "buy designs". Why would I want to build a cue like someone else's? My customers pay for a one of a kind cue.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

ok..heres where you're wrong:
you're calling all these, among others, production cue makers:

Richard Black
Dennis Searing
Joel Herceck
Bill Stroud,
Ernie Gutierrez
Tony Sciannella
Bob Manzino
Jerry Mcworter
Keith Josey
Leonard Bludworth
Thomas Wayne
Marcus Dienst
Tad Kohara
Richard Chudy
Bob Runde
Paul Drexler
Paul Mottey
James White
Tim Scruggs
Joe Gold
Mike Bender..................

you are truly misguided.........

They're all production makers. It's just that their cues are overpriced due to collectors and people like you that think they're worth what they are.

They're all cue makers. They happen to do some custom work as well. For the most part, you pre-build cues, and someone buys the finished product without any input from the time you made it. That's no different than Joss or Schon. Every one of these guys has their own style and almost all have a brochure of some form. 90% of the cues sold in the "custom" marketplace was designed by the cue maker without knowing who'd ultimately end up with the cue.

If I buy a 19oz Josey from you at DCC, but I want it changed to 20oz, what do you do? Run back to the shop and rebuild the cue? Nope. You stick a weight bolt in the bottom of the cue. Same as any of the production companies. You just build less of them, and charge more for them. Snobbery, plain and simple.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Shawn

I build custom cues and do not "buy designs". Why would I want to build a cue like someone else's? My customers pay for a one of a kind cue.

But what makes your cues "custom" and not just "Madden Cues"? The term "custom" gets thrown around by the brotherhood of cue makers like a badge of honour. You do NOTHING that any other cue maker doesn't do. You have your designs, your tapers, etc.. So does every other maker and manufacturer.

 

[trustyrusty]

BTW, hand selecting the wood has quite a bit more to do with asthetics than it does playability. Just food for thought.
I beg to differ.

Beg all you like, but that super pretty birdeye, tiger, flame, splated, high figured woods are proven to play better than those that are less so? Build techniques have WAY more to do with how a cue plays than if the wood is more highly figured (prettier). The only place I can be convinced otherwise is shafts. But if McDermott uses Ebony in the butt and in the points on a cue, and Mr Tim Scruggs makes a cue with and Ebony butt and points.....I don't think the Ebony that was used in either is a BIG contributor in how they play. Again, my opinion....differ at will.

 

[Poke N Hope]

Im always trying new cues, mainly production cues. I look for performance, I could care less who made the cue, I have found that to get superior playability you must go custom, the materials used are far superior to cookie cutter cue makers. Not that producion cues are bad, its just they buy thier materials in serious bulk, whereas the custom cue maker may hand select all thier materials espeacialy the wood, and in my mind, a superior material will yield a superior product. This directly relates to playability to me. Performance is king, you can have the most expensive production cue on the market, all the inlays in the world, and pick up a 250$ custom and be blown away.


The only real question is where are the cuemakers going to get quality materials in the future? I suspect this already becomming a problem...

So yes a custom is better than production as long as the materials used are superior imho, otherwise it would be best to buy a production where they have money to burn on R&D..


SPINDOKTOR

Tap Tap Tap!

Not all woods are the same.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Tap Tap Tap!

Not all woods are the same.

They are after you core them with maple, or soak them in Nelsonite, which is what 95% of custom cue makers do.

Ask skins about Keith's construction technique. All his cue have a one-piece laminated core. Takes the "wood" argument out of the equation. Same with Black Boar. All that pretty maple is cored with a straight maple centre. Now, is "better wood" your final answer?

 

[seymore15074]

But what makes your cues "custom" and not just "Madden Cues"? The term "custom" gets thrown around by the brotherhood of cue makers like a badge of honour. You do NOTHING that any other cue maker doesn't do. You have your designs, your tapers, etc.. So does every other maker and manufacturer.

Shawn you haven't said a word in this entire thread that I don't agree with.

Look at my Schon closely and try to tell me that they didn't "hand select" the wood for it--it is amazing. (it has been said that better looking wood obviously plays better, too)

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Shawn you haven't said a word in this entire thread that I don't agree with.

Look at my Schon closely and try to tell me that they didn't "hand select" the wood for it--it is amazing. (it has been said that better looking wood obviously plays better, too)

It's because I used to make cues. Still do the odd one here and there. A Rolls Royce is a piece of crap compared to the technology inside a Porsche. Which one costs more? The one with snob appeal.

 

[trustyrusty]

Tap Tap Tap!

Not all woods are the same.

Just a little clarification from my last post....Schon, Joss, Mcdermott, etc. as examples - do you believe that these companies buy crappy birdeye maple, or cocobolo, or ebony, or purpleheart, or, well you get it...? Is hand selecting your birdeye maple gonna really make that much a difference in playability, or is it cosmetic? I may be swayed on this, but if I play a production Jacoby that is all ebony, and a custom guy makes an all ebony cue that I think plays better....I'm betting it's because of how the two cues differ in build than the ebony used....

I'll give an semi-related sample....I have both a Scotty Cameron (Titleist) putter, and a Robert Bettinardi (Mizuno) putter - both the same length (34"), headweight (340 grams), style (Ping Anser style), shaft (True Temper), grip (Golf Pride Decade), and made of 304 stainless steel (heck, they may even use the same supplier???) - I could get real technical with swing weight etc., but they are virtually the same putter......they feel TOTALLY different, and I don't think it's the steel...it's their differences in the way they are made - in putter building this usually means milling. And believe me, golf will come up with a zillion reason per year why you should buy the latest and greatest - usually materials related, some technological new gimmick, or just pure old fashioned marketing. But, when it comes to putters - unlike drivers (where all bets are off as far as designs go) - it almost always comes down to how it's made. Since cues haven't followed golfs trends as far as technological materials (carbon fiber - made with nano technology now LOL), it pretty much comes down to A) how it's made B) how pretty you want it (fancy inlays & rare woods).

 

[Jack Madden]

But what makes your cues "custom" and not just "Madden Cues"? The term "custom" gets thrown around by the brotherhood of cue makers like a badge of honour. You do NOTHING that any other cue maker doesn't do. You have your designs, your tapers, etc.. So does every other maker and manufacturer.

Yes, I do --- standard --- there has to be a standard to start from in building a cue.

But when Keith McCready calls and says he wants
his playing cue to play a certain way, balance point at a certain point, a certain weight, etc., I built a cue FOR HIM per his requirements. And it was not the same cue (weight, taper, balance point, design) I built for my grandson or the little old lady in Denver who has taken up pool since her husband died. Each of these cues are different (and I am not talking about cnc inlays). That is my take on CUSTOM.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Yes, I do --- standard --- there has to be a standard to start from in building a cue.

But when Keith McCready calls and says he wants
his playing cue to play a certain way, balance point at a certain point, a certain weight, etc., I built a cue FOR HIM per his requirements. And it was not the same cue (weight, taper, balance point, design) I built for my grandson or the little old lady in Denver who has taken up pool since her husband died. Each of these cues are different (and I am not talking about cnc inlays). That is my take on CUSTOM.

Then EVERY cue maker is a custom cue maker. For sake of clarity, just drop the "custom".

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Yes, I do --- standard --- there has to be a standard to start from in building a cue.

But when Keith McCready calls and says he wants
his playing cue to play a certain way, balance point at a certain point, a certain weight, etc., I built a cue FOR HIM per his requirements. And it was not the same cue (weight, taper, balance point, design) I built for my grandson or the little old lady in Denver who has taken up pool since her husband died. Each of these cues are different (and I am not talking about cnc inlays). That is my take on CUSTOM.

My take on custom: Bob buys a cue from you, and has all the input in the world when it's made. That cue is "Bob's custom cue, by Jack Madden". You call it a "Madden Custom Cue". Bob sells it to Frank. Frank now owns a "Madden Custom Cue" that was made without a lick of attention to him, or what he wanted. He just likes the hit and the look of it. The cue changes hands 4 times in the next 4 years. It's still called a "custom cue", although only one of the owners actually had input into the cue.

You see my point? Your cues are "Jack Madden Cues".

 

[Poke N Hope]

They are after you core them with maple, or soak them in Nelsonite, which is what 95% of custom cue makers do.

Ask skins about Keith's construction technique. All his cue have a one-piece laminated core. Takes the "wood" argument out of the equation. Same with Black Boar. All that pretty maple is cored with a straight maple centre. Now, is "better wood" your final answer?

I don't care what skins and Keiths construction techniques are. I do not like the look of cnc inlays. Never have, never will.

Now for your comment about Black Boar cues. I have two, and neither of them are cored and the shafts are not soaked in nelsonite. If you don't belive me than you call Tony at Black Boar.

All I am saying is that all wood is not created equal.

Production cue or custom cue. Honestly I don't give a Sh$t who makes it. I buy a cue on how it plays. Unfortantely for me, if you read my proir post, I can't buy a production cue because of the specs that i like. 60"+ cue with Ivory ferrules and Old growth Maple shafts.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Beg all you like, but that super pretty birdeye, tiger, flame, splated, high figured woods are proven to play better than those that are less so? Build techniques have WAY more to do with how a cue plays than if the wood is more highly figured (prettier). The only place I can be convinced otherwise is shafts. But if McDermott uses Ebony in the butt and in the points on a cue, and Mr Tim Scruggs makes a cue with and Ebony butt and points.....I don't think the Ebony that was used in either is a BIG contributor in how they play. Again, my opinion....differ at will.

Well, ebony, most likely.
Maple, maybe not so.
A few makers actually reject nice looking maple because they are just not right for some other reasons.

 

[Cuebacca]

What do you think is a custom cue? Is it a cue that you saw for sale on this or another site made by a cue maker? Is it a cue that has special inlays and fancy ring work? Is it a cue with sharp points and beautiful inalys? What is a custom cue to you?

I have nothing to contribute to this discussion, but I do have a link to what I thought was another good thread on this topic:

Production or Not