Custom Cue

There most definitely is "old growth" maple. It's what I cut. I harvest them and mill them personally, myself. In the forestry terms, it's generally wood from a 150+ year old tree. Regardless of ring count per inch, if the tree is 150+ years old before harvest, it's old growth. It's not a marketing ploy, it's real. I have pics of one of my 3'+ diameter logs on the mill, being sawed into boards. It was so huge, we had to chainsaw it into square so it would fit into a 36" band mill. Trees this large and/or old are not commercially cut because the wood normally is not white but more of a mocha brown/yellow. Again, not a marketing ploy, but real.

Slow growth can be misleading as well. It does indeed mean tight grain lines but there are several reasons for a tree to grow slow. Even in cold climates of far north, a tree in optimum soil will grow at a healthy rate. Trees growing in nutrient lacking soil will grow very slow and have super tight grain, but the lumber is junk for cues because it's unstable & inconsistent.

Through experience & thousands of shafts I have learned what feels & performs best in a cue. I don't care if it's perfectly straight grained or bright white or a zillion lines per inch. I care about structural characteristics, resiliance, tone, and most importantly texture of grain. The grain texture is how tightly woven & locked the wood fibers are, the difference between a shaft that cuts like wax or a shaft that gets tear-out & fuzzies during cutting. At first glance it's impossible to know, but close visual inspection for somebody who knows what to look for can reveal the true quality of the wood, regardless of grain count or straightness of grain. I know a handful of "custom" builders who know how to distinguish good from bad without cutting, but all builders know when they are cutting good wood or not. How many factory workers know the difference in either? Better yet, how many care?

There are several aspects of building cues that custom builders pride themselves in, and production factories overlook. A good example is shafts. Of 100 shaft dowels I process from raw stock, 20 become shafts that I feel are good enough for my name. Keep in mind that I choose my wood from the beginning for straight grain, and consistent grain, meaning that there are 80 beautiful shafts thrown away. A factory worker trained to choose straight & clean wood will use all 100 of these shafts, meaning that 80% of the cues produced with them will be less than desireable, and 20% will be good cues considering the butts are well made. This is one difference between production & custom.

We can label anything & get our panties bunched up over petty stuff like "what is truly custom", but in the end when all of the BS clears, the custom cues will always have the most respect by the majority of cue buyers. Regardless of anybody's opinions, the vast majority of experienced players, collectors & cue buyers all agree that a well built custom is infinitely better than a production. Oranges are oranges & apples are apples and can not be compared beyond the fact that they are both food & both spherical in shape. Same with cues. There's always one in every group who runs against the grain & always a couple of followers who jump on the bandwagon. It's human, it's expected. But it changes nothing, just makes for some drawn out drama & entertainment for us losers who are bored enough to sit in front of a computer & play with forums. Oh, and that is just my opinion :)
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
The only way to find out is to ask. They're made with a 13" pro taper. Do you like longer or shorter?

what if i want a compound taper Shawn?? will they do that??
 
qbilder said:
There most definitely is "old growth" maple. It's what I cut. I harvest them and mill them personally, myself. In the forestry terms, it's generally wood from a 150+ year old tree. Regardless of ring count per inch, if the tree is 150+ years old before harvest, it's old growth. It's not a marketing ploy, it's real. I have pics of one of my 3'+ diameter logs on the mill, being sawed into boards. It was so huge, we had to chainsaw it into square so it would fit into a 36" band mill. Trees this large and/or old are not commercially cut because the wood normally is not white but more of a mocha brown/yellow. Again, not a marketing ploy, but real.

Slow growth can be misleading as well. It does indeed mean tight grain lines but there are several reasons for a tree to grow slow. Even in cold climates of far north, a tree in optimum soil will grow at a healthy rate. Trees growing in nutrient lacking soil will grow very slow and have super tight grain, but the lumber is junk for cues because it's unstable & inconsistent.

Through experience & thousands of shafts I have learned what feels & performs best in a cue. I don't care if it's perfectly straight grained or bright white or a zillion lines per inch. I care about structural characteristics, resiliance, tone, and most importantly texture of grain. The grain texture is how tightly woven & locked the wood fibers are, the difference between a shaft that cuts like wax or a shaft that gets tear-out & fuzzies during cutting. At first glance it's impossible to know, but close visual inspection for somebody who knows what to look for can reveal the true quality of the wood, regardless of grain count or straightness of grain. I know a handful of "custom" builders who know how to distinguish good from bad without cutting, but all builders know when they are cutting good wood or not. How many factory workers know the difference in either? Better yet, how many care?

There are several aspects of building cues that custom builders pride themselves in, and production factories overlook. A good example is shafts. Of 100 shaft dowels I process from raw stock, 20 become shafts that I feel are good enough for my name. Keep in mind that I choose my wood from the beginning for straight grain, and consistent grain, meaning that there are 80 beautiful shafts thrown away. A factory worker trained to choose straight & clean wood will use all 100 of these shafts, meaning that 80% of the cues produced with them will be less than desireable, and 20% will be good cues considering the butts are well made. This is one difference between production & custom.

We can label anything & get our panties bunched up over petty stuff like "what is truly custom", but in the end when all of the BS clears, the custom cues will always have the most respect by the majority of cue buyers. Regardless of anybody's opinions, the vast majority of experienced players, collectors & cue buyers all agree that a well built custom is infinitely better than a production. Oranges are oranges & apples are apples and can not be compared beyond the fact that they are both food & both spherical in shape. Same with cues. There's always one in every group who runs against the grain & always a couple of followers who jump on the bandwagon. It's human, it's expected. But it changes nothing, just makes for some drawn out drama & entertainment for us losers who are bored enough to sit in front of a computer & play with forums. Oh, and that is just my opinion :)
You left out the part about hugging the wood and the magic fairy dust.

More self serving rhetoric from another "custom" cue maker. Yes, your wood is better that Predator's. Who's sold more shafts? How many world champs have used your "old growth maple"? And what guarantees can you make that the production houses can't? Lifetime guarantee? McDermott has that. Warpage on shafts? McDermott has that. So does Viking. And, those "workers" you're talking about have been trained by guys with the same amount or most likely more experience than you. Every "custom" cue maker thinks they do something special that the production houses don't. The only thing I can see is just what I keep saying - "Fairy dust and hugs".
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
Poke, you came forth after I said that cue makers core their wood saying that Black Boars aren't cored. What you should have said was that your Black Boars aren't cored. All of Tony's cues that are made from figured maple are cored. He usually cores his exotics, too, for weight reduction.

I'm just telling it like it is. A whole bunch of people got together and tested cues with every imagineable configuration to see who could tell the difference. The consensus was that no one had the ability to tell if the cue had a particular style of joint, beit wood to wood or stainless, radial or 5/16-14, etc.. They also found that the cue voted to have the best hit was a Viking hustler that wasn't spliced.

Coring doesn't change the hit of the cue, from what I've noticed. It helps with weight reduction and stability. That's what I was getting at. In case you didn't notice, I gave you rep for your comments, so the whole "not seeing eye to eye" doesn't play in my sandbox.


I belive that I stated that I was talking about my Black Boars to begin with. If that wasn't clear, then I apoligize. The "Not seeing eye to eye" comment was mainly for your comment to me that I can't tell the difference concerning cored forearms on a cue. IMHO, I can and I don't like them. Thanks for the REP and here some for you. :)
 
skins said:
what if i want a compound taper Shawn?? will they do that??
Schuler will. So will Falcon. So will Joss. So will Pechauer. Should I go on about the production houses that customize tapers?

I guess custom makers are the only guys that have CNC machines to cut their shafts. Oh, wait - you guys got that idea from the production houses.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
Schuler will. So will Falcon. So will Joss. So will Pechauer. Should I go on about the production houses that customize tapers?

I guess custom makers are the only guys that have CNC machines to cut their shafts. Oh, wait - you guys got that idea from the production houses.
Actually it came from DPK. :)
As far as I know Joss and Falcon have single taper butts.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
We were talking about shafts.
K. Shafts have 3 or more "tapers". So they are really almost all compound taper unless someone has a nice conical taper on shafts.

Compound taper butt is another animal altogether.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
They're all production makers. It's just that their cues are overpriced

overpriced??? can you build these type cues???....., can you even conceive some of the designs form some of the cues of these makers???............ can you even tell me how some of the masterpieces from these makers were even done??? i would bet the answer to all those questions is NO. would you also say that Mercedes or Ferrari are overpriced??? would you say that Rolex or Piaget are overpriced. in this life i believe you get what you pay for. more work, more thought, better design, better execution, better materials, ect.... = more money. all of theses makers and a few others due ALL of that compared to most. it sounds to me that you have become jaded from your own issues. it could be because you know you can't create like these makers and the easiest thing to do, since you will never be a customer of theirs probably because you can't afford it, is bash them and their methods. the funny thing is you lump Keith in even though you've gone to his well of talent for at least 2k. why would someone of your thoughts ever steer that amount of work to someone when you think so low of their work, being a "production" cue maker and all??? what does that say about your argument???
 
to use your lines...

..............stunned silence from Shawn.

"Now, are you almost done trying to make yourself look good? I'm getting
bored."
 
skins said:
overpriced??? can you build these type cues???....., can you even conceive some of the designs form some of the cues of these makers???............ can you even tell me how some of the masterpieces from these makers were even done??? i would bet the answer to all those questions is NO. would you also say that Mercedes or Ferrari are overpriced??? would you say that Rolex or Piaget are overpriced. in this life i believe you get what you pay for. more work, more thought, better design, better execution, better materials, ect.... = more money. all of theses makers and a few others due ALL of that compared to most. it sounds to me that you have become jaded from your own issues. it could be because you know you can't create like these makers and the easiest thing to do, since you will never be a customer of theirs probably because you can't afford it, is bash them and their methods. the funny thing is you lump Keith in even though you've gone to his well of talent for at least 2k. why would someone of your thoughts ever steer that amount of work to someone when you think so low of their work, being a "production" cue maker and all??? what does that say about your argument???
Your post begged for this comment.

I got a Blade 2 from Keith with holly and turquiose for $1100. Normal retail was $1800. Choke on it. That was back in 2001. I bought a plain jane maple with 314 shaft for $600. Normal retail was $850. I had Keith restore a Thomas Wayne.

I stopped using Keith when he undercut me on my cue when I was selling it. Keith offered to build the cue I was selling for the exact same price I was selling it for. That's when I ceased to deal with Keith.
 
I stopped using Keith when he undercut me on my cue when I was selling it.
That's pretty serious accusation there.
 
skins said:
overpriced??? can you build these type cues???....., can you even conceive some of the designs form some of the cues of these makers???............ can you even tell me how some of the masterpieces from these makers were even done??? i would bet the answer to all those questions is NO. would you also say that Mercedes or Ferrari are overpriced??? would you say that Rolex or Piaget are overpriced. in this life i believe you get what you pay for. more work, more thought, better design, better execution, better materials, ect.... = more money. all of theses makers and a few others due ALL of that compared to most. it sounds to me that you have become jaded from your own issues. it could be because you know you can't create like these makers and the easiest thing to do, since you will never be a customer of theirs probably because you can't afford it, is bash them and their methods. the funny thing is you lump Keith in even though you've gone to his well of talent for at least 2k. why would someone of your thoughts ever steer that amount of work to someone when you think so low of their work, being a "production" cue maker and all??? what does that say about your argument???
I've owned a Thomas Wayne. Nice looking cue. Didn't play that great, though. Paid $1250 for it, sold it for just about the same price.

And, to counter your points, does a Rolex tell the time any better than my Tissot (a $1K watch, but you probably wear Timex) or my Seiko? Nope. My Kinetics even has the same motion. Does the Ferrari smoke my VW TDI wagon? Yep. But the Ferrari doesn't get 60mpg fuel economy, either.

Does your overpriced, CNC inlaid cue play any better than a $400 Schon? Seeing as Schon outsells you 10 to 1 on a bad year, I'm going to say NO.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
Your post begged for this comment.

I got a Blade 2 from Keith with holly and turquiose for $1100. Normal retail was $1800. Choke on it. That was back in 2001. I bought a plain jane maple with 314 shaft for $600. Normal retail was $850. I had Keith restore a Thomas Wayne.

I stopped using Keith when he undercut me on my cue when I was selling it. Keith offered to build the cue I was selling for the exact same price I was selling it for. That's when I ceased to deal with Keith.


no....you said you would never deal with Keith because i made you look bad on another thread ( you actually did that to yourself ).....now which one is it???
 
JoeyInCali said:
I stopped using Keith when he undercut me on my cue when I was selling it.
That's pretty serious accusation there.
It's what the person who bought the cue on eBay pulled on me. Keith didn't knowingly do it to me. The guy went to Keith and asked him to build the cue at the price I was posting. He said OK. Ended up making the cue for the gentleman at a price less than what I paid for Keith to make it. That's the story. I was given negative feedback on eBay because the guy stiffed me on the cue and bought direct from Keith.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
I've owned a Thomas Wayne. Nice looking cue. Didn't play that great, though. Paid $1250 for it, sold it for just about the same price.

And, to counter your points, does a Rolex tell the time any better than my Tissot (a $1K watch, but you probably wear Timex) or my Seiko? Nope. My Kinetics even has the same motion. Does the Ferrari smoke my VW TDI wagon? Yep. But the Ferrari doesn't get 60mpg fuel economy, either.

Does your overpriced, CNC inlaid cue play any better than a $400 Schon? Seeing as Schon outsells you 10 to 1 on a bad year, I'm going to say NO.

spoken from another that rips something because they don't understand it nor can afford to possess it. keep goin' Shawn......
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
It's what the person who bought the cue on eBay pulled on me. Keith didn't knowingly do it to me. The guy went to Keith and asked him to build the cue at the price I was posting. He said OK. Ended up making the cue for the gentleman at a price less than what I paid for Keith to make it. That's the story. I was given negative feedback on eBay because the guy stiffed me on the cue and bought direct from Keith.


if it wasn't Keith intentions then why bring it up in a negative light??? you're proving my point that you'll grasp at anything to try and make a point that is flawed from the start. just diggin' it deeper and deeper........
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
Does your overpriced, CNC inlaid cue play any better than a $400 Schon? Seeing as Schon outsells you 10 to 1 on a bad year

to answer question imo YES. oh by the way to prove your ignorance to cues and cue sales Schon outsells Keith 50 to 1 on a bad year. oh and did you know Volkswagen outsells Ferrari 500 to 1 as well on a bad year as well.......wow!!......another stellar analogy from the cue GURU........

skins --------- thinks Shawn is becoming his hero.....
 
skins said:
no....you said you would never deal with Keith because i made you look bad on another thread ( you actually did that to yourself ).....now which one is it???
I haven't bought a cue from Keith in years. I bought 3 in a row, back in 2000 through to 2003. Then I stopped. Why was that? Oh, yeah, it was because of you.

Does Keith do good work? Yes. Are his cues overpriced? Yes. Does he get paid for them? Yes. By me? No. I discovered that as I got better, it wasn't the cue. Would I buy a cue from Keith ever again, knowing that an egocentric ***** like you works for him? Never.

Keep thinking you're the centre of the universe, skins. Keith is getting great publicity from a person like you.
 
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