Custom Cue

[skins]

Skins this is what I said in my first post that appears to have upset you and started the name calling!!

This in my opinion is the currently problem with the cue market today. There are numerous people who are assembling cues in the same manner contractors build pre-fabricated homes. These people use the latest technology / computer driven machinery to create cues very quickly and to make some very intricate designs. While these cues are mostly very sound, they are not truly custom, because with the flip of a switch and the loading of a computer program that same design can be exactly duplicated.

In addition many of these people have not and can not build cues in a traditional manner without the use of this technology. Than there is the price, what kills me is that many of these individuals expect to be paid as much for their work as the few traditional cue makers who build their products by hand, which to me is a JOKE and very LAUGHABLE!!!!!!

For those wishing to purchase Custom made collectors cue, a little research will show you where to spend your money, I mean this is not rocket science. To a man, the Traditional Custom Cue makers are the ones who have the long never ending waiting lists, with few exceptions, not the so called Artists with a flare for computers technology.


Skins your response is as follows:

C'mon Manwon...with respect, imo your statements are truly misguided and are the ones that are as you put it "a JOKE and very LAUGHABLE!!!!!!"....

Next you said:

i also love your statement, this was funny, "These people use the latest technology / computer driven machinery to create cues very quickly and to make some very intricate designs. While these cues are mostly very sound, they are not truly custom, because with the flip of a switch and the loading of a computer program that same design can be exactly duplicated." this statement reeks as clueless to what it takes to be able to use this technology. to bulk not just anyone but everyone into your statement who use it, is reckless and ignorant to the art of machining of any kind. as far as your "waiting list" comment that is just as far off as the others.


Skins I never bulked anyone into anything, my statement were directed at those who have jumped into this industry turning out numerous cues using computer generated programs and machinery without the ability to create the designs by hand using traditional methods.

You are the one who put a number of names out there, whom I suspect you have made programs for. Your above use of the of the words Reckless, Ignorant, Clueless, paint a picture that is not only inaccurate, but totally false. This is where your statements lead me to believe that you think you that you have all the answers, and that you are the final answer and have the ultimate knowledge on this subject. I could also dig back into past posts where you paint the same picture repeatedly with your worn out brush every time this subject comes up.

There are always different sides and views to any discussion, no single person has all the answers, and there is also many workable answers to any situation or problem. This narrow view that this is the solution and nothing else compares to it is misguided.

There are a number of cue makers currently building cues without the aid of computer generated programs. You know this and so do I, and while their cues may not be as technically perfect, their cues are still very very sought after, and they sell nothing below the four figure mark. Now I will agree that the general public in most cases can not tell the difference, in execution or finished product from computer generated designs. This however, is not something that makes anyone ignorant they simply do not know how to tell the difference.

Skins you on the other hand, do understand, the difference in Craftsmanship between using a computer generated design and mill to cut pockets for inlays, turn butts, turn shafts, and by doing the same process without the aid of this equipment the traditional way. Although, you fail to acknowledge that there is any difference, in craftsmanship which truly is a case where deception must be your ulterior motivation for what ever reason.

Good Luck, and have a good day!!!!

Manwon, first off i did no "name calling". you on the other hand purposely, and egregiously, offended every maker that uses this "technology and said their income derived because of it was "laughable". second how can you make any statements about the use of any technology that YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT. have you ever worked with any machines that utilize CNC technology?? i have spent close to 20 years working with all types of milling, drilling, cutting, sanding, planing, shaping, ect....machines, mechanical and otherwise. i have also spent 15 years + working with CNC controlled machines as well as designing art work and then re-drawing this artwork into the programs needed to create the code for the machines controllers to read. my experience alone gives me the right to defend it's process because i know what i'm talking about when it comes to it. the use of any equipment fastened with CNC driven motors is not a "quick fix" to cue making PERIOD. machines of this type have just as much learning curve as any other and in fact need much greater knowledge to not only make work with them correctly but a maker must be able to do every facet of the process that these machines will need to perform the way they are intended. imo a tool is a tool is a tool......it matters what you do with them, not "that" you do with them.

 

[skins]

Skins you have touched a nerve.....I drive a 2005 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon and it can give a Range Rover the 7 and out with 2 on the wire to 7! Now the Hummer H1 is a different story except in tight situations.

Now you guys can resume your intense "custom cue" debate.

It's hard to believe this debate is still going on, custom or not custom what the heck is the difference,buy what you like and enjoy the cue(s).

Support your favorite cuemaker(s) custom or...........................

i dunno' about that challenge. i've seen the Range do some pretty amazing things.....but then again i never drove a Rubicon so i guess i'll concede this one.......

 

[qbilder]

You left out the part about hugging the wood and the magic fairy dust.

More self serving rhetoric from another "custom" cue maker. Yes, your wood is better that Predator's. Who's sold more shafts? How many world champs have used your "old growth maple"? And what guarantees can you make that the production houses can't? Lifetime guarantee? McDermott has that. Warpage on shafts? McDermott has that. So does Viking. And, those "workers" you're talking about have been trained by guys with the same amount or most likely more experience than you. Every "custom" cue maker thinks they do something special that the production houses don't. The only thing I can see is just what I keep saying - "Fairy dust and hugs".

You obviously missed everything, huh? I just explained what custom builders do that production does not. Who are you? A cue builder? You seem to have absolutely no clue as to what is involved in building a cue. You have general ideas & are stubborn on your extremist opinions, but actually know absolutely jack. I know many established builders & a couple factory owners as well. Is there a difference? You bet there is. How many production guys have been on here giving you their answers? None. So it leaves you, a loud mouth know it all nobody to argue with people actually involved in the industry.

How many builders' cues have you actually had, and seen the inside of? How many have you gotten to know well enough for them to share their ideas & tactics? Better yet, how many cues have you built? For somebody who can ask questions then argue about the answers, you don't seem too knowledgeable. Either way, I tried explaining things in a fair & reasonable manner & you ran with it in some self righteous ass of a way, that's enough for me. When you grow up & learn how to tie your shoes then your words may carry some merit. Until then you are a hollow echo.

"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level then beat you with experience." My lesson learned.

 

[manwon]

Manwon, first off i did no "name calling". you on the other hand purposely, and egregiously, offended every maker that uses this "technology and said their income derived because of it was "laughable". second how can you make any statements about the use of any technology that YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT. have you ever worked with any machines that utilize CNC technology?? i have spent close to 20 years working with all types of milling, drilling, cutting, sanding, planing, shaping, ect....machines, mechanical and otherwise. i have also spent 15 years + working with CNC controlled machines as well as designing art work and then re-drawing this artwork into the programs needed to create the code for the machines controllers to read. my experience alone gives me the right to defend it's process because i know what i'm talking about when it comes to it. the use of any equipment fastened with CNC driven motors is not a "quick fix" to cue making PERIOD. machines of this type have just as much learning curve as any other and in fact need much greater knowledge to not only make work with them correctly but a maker must be able to do every facet of the process that these machines will need to perform the way they are intended. imo a tool is a tool is a tool......it matters what you do with them, not "that" you do with them.

You are correct, tools are tools and craftsmanship is craftsmanship and someone who uses a machine for what others do by hand is not comparable. While my description saids nothing about about which is better, there still is a difference in man hour's required, and in ones ability of execution.

For you to say I have no knowledge of the requirements needed to operate a Computer mill you are wrong. While I have not built any programs, I have pushed buttons and executed cuts for inlay pockets, butt turning, and shaft doweling. I also understand the additional expense replacing small end mill bits that frequently break making thin fine cuts for inlays. I also have a limited knowledge of the set-up needed to start the process which is very similar to the same procedures manually. I also know how easy it is to reproduce EXACT Designs over and over again using this process, which in my opinion is mass production.

Lets face it without the above procedures even identically styled cues made by the cue maker will not be exactly reproduced. The work by hand is also much more labor intensive, and craftsmanship is the watch word.
With the advent of the above machinery, individuals began producing cues at rate never seen in the world before. The number of people who built cues went from less than 50 forty years ago, to more than 500 in the last ten years.

There are a number of purposes this has served, one it has made cues more available to the general public, at a cheaper price than in years past. It has allowed foreign competitors gain a large share of the market in this country. It has also allowed cue makers, even small operations to increase their production abilities to levels unheard of in the past. To me some of this is good and some of this is bad, however, this has also flooded the currently market with cues that are doctored to look hand made while in reality they are only doctored.

Again in my opinion, and this is the last time you will here it in this thread, a cue maker who is making cues in the traditional fashion should not be lumped into the category of cue makers using none traditional methods. Cue collectors know what I am saying, and that is why most cues with Fancy computer inlay-ed designs are not as sought after and never will be as hand cut, hand machined, and hand turned cues made without the aid of this equipment.

On this topic we can certainly agree to disagree, because there is no right or wrong only opinions.

 

[skins]

You are correct, tools are tools and craftsmanship is craftsmanship and someone who uses a machine for what others do by hand is not comparable. While my description saids nothing about about which is better, there still is a difference in man hour's required, and in ones ability of execution.

For you to say I have no knowledge of the requirements needed to operate a Computer mill you are wrong. While I have not built any programs, I have pushed buttons and executed cuts for inlay pockets, butt turning, and shaft doweling. I also understand the additional expense replacing small end mill bits that frequently break making thin fine cuts for inlays. I also have a limited knowledge of the set-up needed to start the process which is very similar to the same procedures manually. I also know how easy it is to reproduce EXACT Designs over and over again using this process, which in my opinion is mass production.

Lets face it without the above procedures even identically styled cues made by the cue maker will not be exactly reproduced. The work by hand is also much more labor intensive, and craftsmanship is the watch word.
With the advent of the above machinery, individuals began producing cues at rate never seen in the world before. The number of people who built cues went from less than 50 forty years ago, to more than 500 in the last ten years.

There are a number of purposes this has served, one it has made cues more available to the general public, at a cheaper price than in years past. It has allowed foreign competitors gain a large share of the market in this country. It has also allowed cue makers, even small operations to increase their production abilities to levels unheard of in the past. To me some of this is good and some of this is bad, however, this has also flooded the currently market with cues that are doctored to look hand made while in reality they are only doctored.

Again in my opinion, and this is the last time you will here it in this thread, a cue maker who is making cues in the traditional fashion should not be lumped into the category of cue makers using none traditional methods. Cue collectors know what I am saying, and that is why most cues with Fancy computer inlay-ed designs are not as sought after and never will be as hand cut, hand machined, and hand turned cues made without the aid of this equipment.

On this topic we can certainly agree to disagree, because there is no right or wrong only opinions.

you can disagree all you want Manwon you have that right but ya see i've made myself involved in most aspects of BOTH sides of the fence equally and that's where my opinions and knowledge are formulated. with you on the other hand i have only seen that your possible knowledge is heavily one sided. there are many aspects of the other side that you need to experience and master to fully give an unbiased opinion. that's why i keep using the word "ignorant(ce)" with other posters throughout this thread. it doesn't mean someone is stupid, just unaware of the facts to a certain thing. i wish you good luck in you endeavors with the hope that maybe someday you can grow to be not so closed minded about this subject.

 

[manwon]

you can disagree all you want Manwon you have that right but ya see i've made myself involved in most aspects of BOTH sides of the fence equally and that's where my opinions and knowledge are formulated. with you on the other hand i have only seen that your possible knowledge is heavily one sided. there are many aspects of the other side that you need to experience and master to fully give an unbiased opinion. that's why i keep using the word "ignorant(ce)" with other posters throughout this thread. it doesn't mean someone is stupid, just unaware of the facts to a certain thing. i wish you good luck in you endeavors with the hope that maybe someday you can grow to be not so closed minded about this subject.

I want to grow up to be a real Craftsman Like Pete Tascarella, who builds cues in a traditional manner using limited equipment and hands on craftsmanship. Because there will always be a market for hands on traditional work, but I do not have to tell you that, you also know and are afraid of it, or for other reasons you do not acknowlege it.

Have good day, and good luck, china is always looking for another programer!!!

 

[skins]

I want to grow up to be a real Craftsman Like Pete Tascarella, who builds cues in a traditional manner using limited equipment and hands on craftsmanship. Because there will always be a market for hands on traditional work, but I do not have to tell you that, you also know and are afraid of it, or for other reasons you do not acknowlege it.

Have good day, and good luck, china is always looking for another programer!!!

afraid of it?? don't acknowledge it?? there has NEVER come a statement from my mouth that would ever demean a maker and their methods! unlike you!....in fact i am a huge fan of traditional inlay work, own and have owned many cues from Szam, Tasc, Petterson, Balabushka, ect......and of all the cues i've owned those would be some of my favorites. so you're analogy of my acknowledgment is again far off. you don't even know my background as a player first, then machinist, then collector and you say something like this? very reckless i think. on the other hand i know your background with CNC equipment from your arguments that carry little substance. lets just suffice to say that NO part of the cue crafting process is an issue nor scares me in any way. nor do i judge anyone in a negative for how they choose to do things. as for being like Pete that's a wonderful aspiration. it's also a tall one. good luck with that.

skins -------- want's to let Manon know that Viking is looking for another "shaft boy"...to be like Pete ya' gotta start somewhere.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

You obviously missed everything, huh? I just explained what custom builders do that production does not. Who are you? A cue builder? You seem to have absolutely no clue as to what is involved in building a cue. You have general ideas & are stubborn on your extremist opinions, but actually know absolutely jack. I know many established builders & a couple factory owners as well. Is there a difference? You bet there is. How many production guys have been on here giving you their answers? None. So it leaves you, a loud mouth know it all nobody to argue with people actually involved in the industry.

How many builders' cues have you actually had, and seen the inside of? How many have you gotten to know well enough for them to share their ideas & tactics? Better yet, how many cues have you built? For somebody who can ask questions then argue about the answers, you don't seem too knowledgeable. Either way, I tried explaining things in a fair & reasonable manner & you ran with it in some self righteous ass of a way, that's enough for me. When you grow up & learn how to tie your shoes then your words may carry some merit. Until then you are a hollow echo.

"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level then beat you with experience." My lesson learned.

I've built probably somewhere in the neighbourhood of 50-60 cues total.

Don't call me names just because I've demystified the "art" of cuemaking. There are only so many ways to put wood together. Richard Black even said a butt is just a butt. If you think that fit and finish have anything to do with performance, then that's your belief. Earl Strickland seemed to do fine with a Meucci and a Cuetec - two of the running jokes of the custom cue maker's world. Yet, now he's got a custom cue, and is still being beat by guys with production cues. How much shaft wood can you afford to buy? Like I said, Joss or McDermott has probably thrown away more wood than you've ever bought. Dress it up whatever way you want. Custom cues pot balls just as well as production cues. SVB uses a custom made Joss, and a Schon. Bustamante used to use a Black Boar. Now he plays with a Bear (Falcon). John Schmidt just switched from a Hunter to an OB Cue. Hohmann used to use a German custom. Now he plays Universal (Lucasi). None of these guys had a huge drop in performance when they went from a custom to a production cue.

Don't hate me because I call most cue makers on the crap they sell the public. You're no better than a production cue. You're no worse either. You make cues. So do they. The difference is that you probably won't be doing it in 10-20 years, and they will.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

You obviously missed everything, huh? I just explained what custom builders do that production does not. Who are you? A cue builder? You seem to have absolutely no clue as to what is involved in building a cue. You have general ideas & are stubborn on your extremist opinions, but actually know absolutely jack. I know many established builders & a couple factory owners as well. Is there a difference? You bet there is. How many production guys have been on here giving you their answers? None. So it leaves you, a loud mouth know it all nobody to argue with people actually involved in the industry.

How many builders' cues have you actually had, and seen the inside of? How many have you gotten to know well enough for them to share their ideas & tactics? Better yet, how many cues have you built? For somebody who can ask questions then argue about the answers, you don't seem too knowledgeable. Either way, I tried explaining things in a fair & reasonable manner & you ran with it in some self righteous ass of a way, that's enough for me. When you grow up & learn how to tie your shoes then your words may carry some merit. Until then you are a hollow echo.

"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level then beat you with experience." My lesson learned.

OH, the list of customs I've owned:

Thomas Wayne
Keith Josey
Ted Harris
Scott Zachow (Zac Cues)
Greg Hearn
Thierry Layani
EuroWest
Dan Breggin (Colorado Cues)
Tim Prince
Mike Johnson (Jensen)
Steve Klein
Evan Clarke (Schon)
Russ Espiritu
Bill Dominiak
Ray Schuler (pre and post)
Mike Capone
Rick Howard
Prather
Jacoby


I've probably forgotten a bunch more. I spoke with every one of the people in that list. I learned a bunch from all of them. Keep saying I know nothing if it makes you feel better. I really don't care what you think of me. It's plain to see that most of you feel insulted about what I've said. The truth usually hurts. The pool world doesn't need any more cue makers. I make the odd cue these days, and do a lot of repairs. I have a very good career that has nothing to do with the billiard industry.

 

[manwon]

afraid of it?? don't acknowledge it?? there has NEVER come a statement from my mouth that would ever demean a maker and their methods! unlike you!....in fact i am a huge fan of traditional inlay work, own and have owned many cues from Szam, Tasc, Petterson, Balabushka, ect......and of all the cues i've owned those would be some of my favorites. so you're analogy of my acknowledgment is again far off. you don't even know my background as a player first, then machinist, then collector and you say something like this? very reckless i think. on the other hand i know your background with CNC equipment from your arguments that carry little substance. lets just suffice to say that NO part of the cue crafting process is an issue nor scares me in any way. nor do i judge anyone in a negative for how they choose to do things. as for being like Pete that's a wonderful aspiration. it's also a tall one. good luck with that.

skins -------- want's to let Manon know that Viking is looking for another "shaft boy"...to be like Pete ya' gotta start somewhere.

skins -------- want's to let Manon know that Viking is looking for another "shaft boy"...to be like Pete ya' gotta start somewhere.

Now to show you how much you know about me, which is nothing at all, I totally agree. However, in my current situation, money is not an issue, my retirement is completely in place. Now I am not rich, but I do certainly live above the poverty level, and at my young age it's not too bad.
But please answer a question, I heard a rumor that you where truely working with the Asian Cue Factories -- True or False?
Do you program / design for them? Have you ever?

 

[skins]

I heard a rumor that you where truely working with the Asian Cue Factories -- True or False?
Do you program / design for them? Have you ever?

100%.......FALSE not ever. i've only worked with my partner Keith since 1998 and did allot of work for Carolina Cues from 2006 and 2007. before then allot of my design work was seen in cues from Cognoscenti, Colorado Cues, Bludworth and a special cue "Klismos" by Dave Kikel.

 

[skins]

OH, the list of customs I've owned:

Thomas Wayne
Keith Josey
Ted Harris
Scott Zachow (Zac Cues)
Greg Hearn
Thierry Layani
EuroWest
Dan Breggin (Colorado Cues)
Tim Prince
Mike Johnson (Jensen)
Steve Klein
Evan Clarke (Schon)
Russ Espiritu
Bill Dominiak
Ray Schuler (pre and post)
Mike Capone
Rick Howard
Prather
Jacoby

so now your saying that these makers which you have been spewing your "fact" of being "production" makers, now you say:

"OH, the list of customs I've owned:"....

.....now they're CUSTOMS???.......are you on any medication?? if not you should be because you are truly "cue schizophrenic"......

diggin' the hole even deeper................

 

[branpureza]

do you hear the crickets?

 

[manwon]

100%.......FALSE not ever. i've only worked with my partner Keith since 1998 and did allot of work for Carolina Cues from 2006 and 2007. before then allot of my design work was seen in cues from Cognoscenti, Colorado Cues, Bludworth and a special cue "Klismos" by Dave Kikel.

Thanks very much for clearing that up, as I stated above it was a rumor, I am very glad that it is not true!!!

 

[JoeyInCali]

I've built probably somewhere in the neighbourhood of 50-60 cues total.
For yourself or for a factory?
I'm wondering why you ordered a Josey after that.
Or was it before?

 

[manwon]

I've built probably somewhere in the neighbourhood of 50-60 cues total.
For yourself or for a factory?
I'm wondering why you ordered a Josey after that.
Or was it before?

Joey, what do you for a living?

 

[JoeyInCali]

Joey, what do you for a living?

Computer/network tech.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

I've built probably somewhere in the neighbourhood of 50-60 cues total.
For yourself or for a factory?
I'm wondering why you ordered a Josey after that.
Or was it before?

I started making cues in 2001. Very plain cues. Wanted to see a high end Josey, so I bought one. I got a Thomas Wayne back in 2001. I have also bought a Schon and a Jacoby while I made cues. The problem is that I make cues for myself, and get to play precisely one night with them, because they sell. I'll send you a pic of the cue I'm just finishing up now.

I have a wife, a son, another child on the way, and a very busy career. Cuemaking will cease to be part of my life in another 4 months, and I won't miss it. There are some great cue makers out there. Is a Hercek worth the money? If you think so, then yes. Same with a Szamboti. However, if you are paying for a CNC inlaid cue, be aware that you probably will not recoup your investment money when you sell.

 

[skins]

Is a Hercek worth the money? If you think so, then yes. Same with a Szamboti. However, if you are paying for a CNC inlaid cue, be aware that you probably will not recoup your investment money when you sell.

you couldn't be farther from the truth. it all depends on the maker and the kind of work done to the cue. i'll GUARANTEE that there are at least 15 makers who use CNC technology that after paying "their" price for a cue you've ordered then received from them, you immediately could sell it for allot more than what you paid and it would stay that way for the life of your investment..... the highest priced sale or commissioned cues made since GS passing have been cues made with the use of CNC technology. now by no means does that make any other methods less desirable, on the contrary, it's just the kind of work done in any "traditional" method cues have not been as intricate in design nor execution in comparison to the top from the "non". if they were they would command a higher price than their "technology - aided" counterparts. only time will tell if there are any makers interested in trying to pull some cues like this off. as a matter of fact there are some makers imo that have the talent to attempt it but i think factors such as time and desire as well as forgoing their cue style would not make it worth the effort.

 

[Poke N Hope]

Cue collectors know what I am saying, and that is why most cues with Fancy computer inlay-ed designs are not as sought after and never will be as hand cut, hand machined, and hand turned cues made without the aid of this equipment.

Tap! Tap! Tap!

I just sold a Black Boar I paid $1500 for in the early ninties for over $7000. I like to see a cnc point inlaid cue get 5 to 1 on the money.