Custom Taper

S

Shevek

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't live in a huge metropolitin area, so I don't get to see or hit with very many custom cues. I have one acquaintence who has a few and so far I like the hit of the cues made by Harris, Klein, and maybe Carmelli. It has been suggested to me on this board to have a shaft done in the taper I like to go onto the butt I like. But I think I'd rather design my own butt and have the cue maker make it from scratch and do the shaft as well. So I could ask him to copy the taper of X cue. Or would it also be feasible to design my own taper from scratch? Either way, would I want to go with a cue maker who was using CNC? It seems that CNC would be very beneficial for some things such as this. Don't get me wrong - I have loads of respect for the more traditional methods of craftsmanship, but to ask a guy with one or two taper bars to make a custom tapered shaft for me is probably not realistic, right?

So, on to the specifics of designing my own taper. I have heard the opinion that a shaft that has any straight diameter taper sections is bad. For example Pechauer's taper is 13 mm straight back for the first 8 inches or so. But I pretty much like the hit of their cues. I'm thinking of the compromises that have to be made among all the variables. Perhaps a 12.75 mm tip is better for english than 13. The shaft needs to be the right stiffness (subjective). The taper need to be gradual enough to not distract or physically interfere with the player's stroke. Am I thinking along the right lines? I'm probably stating the obvious, but I am looking for specific opinions about the specific variables and how they fit together.

To describe the custom taper I have in mind... It would be something like 12.8 mm at the ferrule and be a constant slope to 13.8 mm at 16 inches. Then go to 14.5 mm at 19 inches. Then go to the joint. Of course the transition point from one slope to the next would have to be smoothed out. At this point I have no idea whether this taper would be stiff enough to suit my preference (As I've said, I do like a stiffer hit).

Any opinions about my specific taper or the process in general? Admittedly I am just a B player. But I practice and play almost every day and my game is growing by leaps and bounds. I have a good sense of feel and perception. I can tell the difference between when *I* missed the shot (or leave) and when *the cue* missed the shot. I can tell you for a fact that I am right about that statement, the proof being that I am aware that 99% of the time *I* was the one that missed the shot - not the cue. Just trying to make that 1% smaller, have a cue that helps me control the cue ball to the best of *my potential* and own a cue that I like the looks of. So I'm trying to figure out how to get all that from one cue maker.

Thanks
Don
 
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There are a few cuemakers around here that can cut you whatever taper you want via CNC.
You provide the specs, they can cut it. As to any claims about how it will affect how the cue will feel, or perform, that is going to be a bit subjective. You will probably have to experiment a bit to figure it out for yourself.
 
Sheldon said:
There are a few cuemakers around here that can cut you whatever taper you want via CNC.
You provide the specs, they can cut it. As to any claims about how it will affect how the cue will feel, or perform, that is going to be a bit subjective. You will probably have to experiment a bit to figure it out for yourself.
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Thanks for the response Sheldon - yes, I pretty much figured you have to experiment and learn by trial and error what does what. If you ask a cue maker to make your custom taper, having never tried it before, then you don't like it - that's not very well the cue maker's fault. I'm just trying to get as much input as possible. I was thinking that if people look at the taper I "designed" and get a feel for how much meat is in that shaft and the slopes of the taper sections, they might be able to say whether or not it might be in the same ball park - stiffness wise - as the cues I like (Harris, Klein).

So who's using CNC?

Thanks
Don
 
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I can make you a taper with any charactaristicts that you can articulate, but you're going to have to do better than asking me to smooth out transitions. The code we use just goes from point to point so you may have quite a few points to consider. I'm surprised that Sheldon didn't offer because it appears to me that he has among the strongest design skill sets. Just get me set of x,y points that fit your critiera and plan to wait a little if none of the shafts in my pipeline will smoothly shift to your curve.
 
Don,
I can appreciate the fact that you're going at this using the 'scientific' approach in your thinking that only CNC can give you the results you seek but you're leaving out one crucial factor. That is, wood by it's very nature is a variable. You can put the same taper on two different maple dowels and in the end find that you have two shafts that are identical in taper but play quite differently. Shaft taper is only one factor in determining a cues hit & playability and even that, as I've stated, is a variable. At best, all you can hope for is a compromise. If you're lucky, it's a compromise that you can live with.

When a CM puts 'his' taper on a shaft, he does so because he feels that is the taper that works best on his cues. That's all well & good but the buyer/player may feel that a little tweaking here & there will make the shaft better suited for them. So who's right? The CM who spent hours writing the perfect x/y coordinates or the player who knows what works best for them? This is the compromise, a valid and acceptable starting point.

By the way, FWIW, not all CMs use CNC. I for one don't. I just can't clear the mental hurdle that CNC is a very expensive way of saving time. As my sales numbers grow, this hasn't been a problem for me. Lately, more than 1/2 my cues sold have gone out with a Predator shaft. That's proven to be a great time saver.
 
Since so many aspects of cue building are the equivalent of opening a can of worms, does that make cue makers worm-tenders?
 
Sheldon said:
There are a few cuemakers around here that can cut you whatever taper you want via CNC.
You provide the specs, they can cut it.
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So, if you wanted a cuemaker to duplicate the taper of an existing shaft, what [shaft] specs/measurements would have to be provided (rather than sending the cuemaker the existing shaft)...?
 
Well Said KJ

KJ Cues said:
Don,
I can appreciate the fact that you're going at this using the 'scientific' approach in your thinking that only CNC can give you the results you seek but you're leaving out one crucial factor. That is, wood by it's very nature is a variable. You can put the same taper on two different maple dowels and in the end find that you have two shafts that are identical in taper but play quite differently. Shaft taper is only one factor in determining a cues hit & playability and even that, as I've stated, is a variable. At best, all you can hope for is a compromise. If you're lucky, it's a compromise that you can live with.

.
Click to expand...

TAP TAP TAP
Rep to you sir..
 
mnb said:
So, if you wanted a cuemaker to duplicate the taper of an existing shaft, what [shaft] specs/measurements would have to be provided (rather than sending the cuemaker the existing shaft)...?
Click to expand...
Exact measurements every inch would work.
 
wood by it's very nature is a variable. You can put the same taper on two different maple dowels and in the end find that you have two shafts that are identical in taper but play quite differently.
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The main factor here will be weight. Good quality maple of similar weight will be pretty close.

When a CM puts 'his' taper on a shaft, he does so because he feels that is the taper that works best on his cues. That's all well & good but the buyer/player may feel that a little tweaking here & there will make the shaft better suited for them. So who's right? The CM who spent hours writing the perfect x/y coordinates or the player who knows what works best for them? This is the compromise, a valid and acceptable starting point.
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I hate hearing cuemakers take the attitude that they know better than the customer. I have tapers that work very well, and many many people have been very happy with. But if someone wants a specific taper, there's no reason for me to try and talk them out of it. I think the reluctance is more an issue of the CM not having the ability to easily create whatever taper someone asks for. Many will only do one taper not because they think it's best for their cues, but because that's what their one taper bar will cut.
By the way, FWIW, not all CMs use CNC. I for one don't. I just can't clear the mental hurdle that CNC is a very expensive way of saving time.
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CNC just makes it a lot easier to do CUSTOM work. If you stick with one taper, it's overkill for sure. The huge advantage of CNC is that once you program a taper, you can always go back and duplicate it exactly, anytime you want. Very easily, very accurately. A whole new setup is just a couple of mouseclicks away.
 
How about the infamous SW cue tapers?

Sheldon said:
The huge advantage of CNC is that once you program a taper, you can always go back and duplicate it exactly, anytime you want. Very easily, very accurately. A whole new setup is just a couple of mouseclicks away.
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If the CNC makes this so repeatable, then would it possible to produce shafts easily that emulate SW paraboloc taper and hit? I would think a lot of peope would be jumping on the bandwagon to have a SW like shaft and more cuemakers would be seasoning and turning shaft wood to offer just that.
 
our_auctionguy said:
If the CNC makes this so repeatable, then would it possible to produce shafts easily that emulate SW paraboloc taper and hit? I would think a lot of peope would be jumping on the bandwagon to have a SW like shaft and more cuemakers would be seasoning and turning shaft wood to offer just that.
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It'd be cake with cnc.
 
our_auctionguy said:
If the CNC makes this so repeatable, then would it possible to produce shafts easily that emulate SW paraboloc taper and hit? I would think a lot of peope would be jumping on the bandwagon to have a SW like shaft and more cuemakers would be seasoning and turning shaft wood to offer just that.
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"Hit" is very subjective, and not everyone thinks SW's taper is all that special. It can certainly be duplicated, as can any other taper.
Whatever the actual dimensions, If someone is unsure, I usually recommend at least a slight parabolic taper. I believe it does make a better playing shaft.
 
Sheldon said:
"Hit" is very subjective, and not everyone thinks SW's taper is all that special. It can certainly be duplicated, as can any other taper.
Whatever the actual dimensions, If someone is unsure, I usually recommend at least a slight parabolic taper. I believe it does make a better playing shaft.
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Youe last name wouln't be Lebow would it?
 
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everyone has their own taper preference,but it is hard to beat the SW taper minus just a little wood in the 6-12" range.
 
masonh said:
well said Sheldon.


CNC is a good thing,not a bad thing.
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I'm not saying or even suggesting that CNC is a bad thing. Actually, it's a very good thing. It's the current state of the evolution of machining. I've been a machinist since before I got out of high school and I've personally witnessed a lot of the evolution of the machining processes and welcomed them all. CNC's birth and growth were very predictable. What is also predictable is that, as more & more cues are built using CNC and the more CNC takes over the processes of the building of cues, the demand for those cues will fall. And so will their value. The art of building cues will eventually be reduced to writing a program. That will be a sad day indeed. The art will be lost to all except those that continue to build by hand.

I kinda like the idea that I'm human and capable of making mistakes. That's where the challenge is and that's where the pride is. Remember "What constitutes a cue maker"? I'm not really addressing that thread because I don't know & I don't care. What does come to mind though is that every true, pro cue maker I've ever met has something in common. They are absolute perfectionists in the most extreme sense of the word. It has nothing to do with writing the latest, greatest dream program or who got the most cash at the trade show for their 6,000 inlay work of art. Frankly, who cares, the machine did it. In addressing 'that' thread I'd say this: IMHO, if you can't do it by hand then no, you ain't no cue maker.

Please don't think that I'm belittling those that use CNC because I'm not. They have reached a level of success and are reaping the rewards of that success. And after all, time is money. But for the sake of the art, don't get so hung up on the future of cue making that you forget the past.

Sorry for my ramblings, just food for thought. KJ
 
The art will be lost to all except those that continue to build by hand
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as far as i know nobody builds cues by hand,except Knobby:eek: .that is a long story about a cue my buddy got off Ebay.


we are talking about tapering cues,shafts specifically.there is no great technological advancement from cuting off a taper bar to cutting tapers by CNC.

CNC is just a faster better way to do it.the saw machine works great and cuts smooth,but is a little slower and maybe not quite as accurate,imo.the saw machines are not done by hand.you put the shaft between centers and run it across a taper bar over a table saw.

i just dont' see the difference.i don't think it is legitimate to say that since cuemaker "a" tapered his butt and shafts on a saw machine and cuemaker "b" tapered his via CNC that cuemaker "b" will have the lesser cue.it just doesn't maek any sense.

you said as everyone starts tapering CNC,the CNC cues will be worth less.it doesn't make any sense.why would they be worth less.how would you ever know the difference between a CNC shaft and butt vs. one cut on a saw machine?


a machine is used either way.

i am sorry if i misread here and i may have.
 
It always cracks me up to hear people talk about cnc 'making' a cue. One "cuemaker" even had something on his site to the effect of: "you just put the cue in, then go have a cup of coffee". :D As if there was some kind of magic to it. CNC is simply a more advanced set of tools that we can use in the process of building a cue.
Used strictly for tapering, its effect is largely invisible, but the benefits are huge. Accuracy, flexibility, and repeatability are big advantages to some.
There's nothing wrong with doing things the hard way, or "by hand" (cruder tools?) either, and there IS some demand for the more "traditional" work, but I don't have the desire to limit myself to that.
 
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