Cuttung shots with inside english.and the contact point.

There is no argument in my mind that favouring on side of the ball is better than trying to hit the plain ball. If you have a stroke fault that causes you to miss the desired contact with the white by 5mm for example - whether you line up and judge the shot using centre ball, inside, outside or a TOI you will still miss the pot and not get the outcome you desire whether it be positional or potting.

So as far as this subject goes, I cant agree with you :-)

I understand what you're saying but even the best stroke is going to occasionally mis by at least 1.5 mm & then the whole tip is off of the center axis.

This is a whole other topic & we should probably not go any further here.

Thanks for your responses & Best 2 You,
Rick
 
In pool "more spin" means higher spin-to-speed ratio, not higher RPMs. More tip speed only produces higher RPMS - you have to hit farther from center to get a higher spin-to-speed ratio.

pj
chgo
Pidge:
So why do I generate more draw when hitting the cue ball with a loose grip compared to a tight grip trying to make all other things equal (tip speed, elevation, tip contact position)?
A ball/ball collision increases the spin-speed ratio (reduces speed more than spin), and the fuller the collision the greater the change (more speed transferred to the OB). So the increased RPMs translate to greater after-collision spin-speed ratio, which has greater effect on the surface cloth after collision.

Compare that to a kick shot with sidespin, where there is little-to-no reduction of CB speed before the sidespin has effect on the rail. If you hit the CB directly into the rail with sidespin, hitting the same CB spot but at different speeds (same spin-speed ratio but different RPMs), the effect will be the same in both cases (same angle change off the rail).

pj
chgo

P.S. If you actually change only the grip, and really keep angle/speed/spot unchanged, then there will be no difference in outcome. My assumption is that a looser grip allows the wrist to move more, creating more speed (and/or maybe changing the tip/CB contact point).
 
Last edited:
Rick,
I don't play baseball or golf, but there may be some analogous comparisons and physics.
I think that the quality of the stroke and follow through are relevant.
I think that a tight closed bridge is different than an open bridge in the delivery of the stroke/cue impacting the CB and follow through..
I think that a soft tip dwells longer on the CB than a hard tip - chalk being equal.
THROWING, STRIKING AND KICKING

1. Muscles contract more forcefully if they are first put on stretch, provided they are not overstretched. Windup in pitching, football pass, javelin throw, and volleyball serve are all important.

2. Awkwardness and unnessary fatigue may be do to unnecessary movements in the performance of a motor skill.

3. Adjustments in the neuromuscular mechanism is made through practice. Therefore, you obtain �skillful� and efficient performance.

4. Most efficient type of movement in throwing and striking skills is ballistic movement.

a. Ballistic: Movements which are initiated by vigorous muscular contraction and completed my momentum.

b. Non-Ballistic: Constant muscular action throughout the movement.

General points on ballistic movement:

? Beginners tend to concentrate on non-ballistic types of movements, especially if they are concentrating on accuracy of aim rather than on a ballistic type of movement. This type of movement results in �moving fixation� or a slow, tense movement.

? A beginner should concentrate on form rather than accuracy if they are to master the skill of moving ballistically.

? Termination of ballistic movement: (1) contracting antagonistic muscles; (2) body part reaches the limit of motion (stopped by passive resistance of ligaments or other tissues); (3) interference of an obstacle.

5. A lever appropriate for the task should be used. A long lever arm is desirable for movements requiring range or speed. Object will move only if the force is of sufficient magnitude to change the object�s inertia and restraining forces. Restraining forces include: (1) friction; (2) wind or water drag; (3) internal resistance. Warmup will help reduce internal resistance.

6. Force exerted by the body will be transferred to an external object in proportion to the effectiveness of the counter of the feet against the ground.

7. Optimum summation of internal force is needed if maximum force is to be applied to move an object. Heavier body segments typically move first and the lightest segments last.

8. Force must be applied over time for a change in momentum to occur. If maximum momentum of a body segment and implement is desired, maximum impulse must be applied over a long period of time. This places importance on follow through.

9. Force applied in line with the center of gravity of the object will result in linear motion of the object.

10. If force is applied off-center to a freely movable object, the object will rotate (rotary motion).

11. The greater the velocity and mass (up to a point) of the striking implement, the greater the velocity of the struck ball. A good baseball player may use a heavier bat. Too heavy a bat, however, is inadvisable because it takes away from angular velocity.

12. The greater the coefficient of restitution (elasticity) of the ball and of the striking implement, the greater the speed of the struck ball.

13. Factors determining the direction taken by the struck ball: (1) direction of the striking implement at the moment of contact; (2) relation of the striking force to the ball�s center of gravity; (3) degree of firmness of grip and wrist at moment of impact; (4) principles affecting rebound (elasticity of striking implement and effects of spin)


http://www.cwu.edu/~acquisto/movement.htm

Bumped for reading by anyone that wishes to consider it with an open mind.
 
............................
 

Attachments

  • 93480108_TCMDi-L.jpg
    93480108_TCMDi-L.jpg
    47 KB · Views: 250
Last edited:
So why do I generate more draw when hitting the cue ball with a loose grip compared to a tight grip trying to make all other things equal (tip speed, elevation, tip contact position)?

Excellent observation, but his thread is stuck in old news from 20 years ago. You'll have to start a new thread to get a more interesting and up to date discussion going. :)

Best,
Mike
 
A ball/ball collision increases the spin-speed ratio (reduces speed more than spin), and the fuller the collision the greater the change (more speed transferred to the OB). So the increased RPMs translate to greater after-collision spin-speed ratio, which has greater effect on the surface cloth after collision.

Compare that to a kick shot with sidespin, where there is little-to-no reduction of CB speed before the sidespin has effect on the rail. If you hit the CB directly into the rail with sidespin, hitting the same CB spot but at different speeds (same spin-speed ratio but different RPMs), the effect will be the same in both cases (same angle change off the rail).

pj
chgo

P.S. If you actually change only the grip, and really keep angle/speed/spot unchanged, then there will be no difference in outcome. My assumption is that a looser grip allows the wrist to move more, creating more speed (and/or maybe changing the tip/CB contact point).

Patrick,

For clarity sake,

When you say keep the speed the same in the part that I highlighted, do you mean the actual cue speed or the speed of the biomechanical delivery of the cue?

I don't think most players 'think' in terms of actual cue speed when making a change related to grip pressure changes.

I think players 'think' in terms of the same delivery with a different grip pressure that then affects the actual cue speed.

Best 2 You Patrickson,
Rick
 
This vid explains some of this......starting at 2:18 --> 4:18.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oii0UhnYjCc&index=9&list=PL9E81FFCBCA3281B4
Thanks very much for the link. The guy explained it very well for average joes like me :-)

Patrick is right I think with regards to me getting more draw with a loose grip. The wrist. When I hold the cue with a death grip just to exaggerate the process my wrist has no option but to lock. When I barely hold the cue my wrist has a kind of flick at the end increasing the tip speed. Although it feels like I'm hitting the same speed in my arm, I cant be.
 
I notice that some good players cut shots in using inside English.

When I started to play, I used a house cue with a lot of deflection on cuts and had to adjust for that when using English.. I preferred to use more center ball to escape deflection because it was more intuitive and predictable to me.

I now use a low deflection Z2 and I still prefer center ball using CP2CP. Low deflection shafts still have some deflection that needs less compensation.

While trying TOI, I noticed that on thick cuts, I could use inside English and aim the cue at the contact point and make the shot. It must be that the deflection is doubling the distance form the center of the OB to the contact point on the OB.

This works well on thick cuts where the inside English is just a touch, but on thinner cuts, the results were too thick. By using more than a touch of inside, I could make thinner cuts while still aiming at the contact point on the OB.

The amount of inside on the CB is proportional to the obverse of the CP on the OB.

Of course, I use this when I can get shape as well.

Just saying.

Be well.

This is like using BHE and aiming at the contact point when using inside spin. Mitch and a few other posters have mentioned aiming at the contact point before with TOI or when they're using the inside of the cue ball.

CJ has said a couple of things about this, also, but hasn't been as specific with it. There's an adjustment from table to table due to playing conditions, as with all strokes, even without using spin.

Best,
Mike
 
That is not a true follow through. That is what I referred to as a fake or contrived 'follow through'. That is of the type that CJ mentions when 'decoying' an opponent. That type belies what I would say the definition of follow through is...or should be.

I do not think that is what I & others have been talking about. If so, I think the discussion has been useless.

But...as is often the case a misunderstanding can be created by a difference of vernacular, either unitentionally or by contrivance.

May God Bless You, Neil.

Earlier, I believe it was you, but not positive on that, someone stated that golf instruction utilizes science a lot, and because of that the game has gone way up in instruction. Then, it was stated that pool is far behind in that category.

Yet, when given the known science in pool, you and others scoff at it. You lay your faith in what someone says that has no actual knowledge of what is actually happening, just someone that is able to be consistent a lot.

It just doesn't make any sense, that when given the actual science behind proper instruction, that so many of you dismiss it in favor of old myths.

I noticed your insult earlier. I understand it, and I agree that it is a waste of time trying to teach people that don't want to learn the truth on here, but only want someone they can hold up and follow no matter what nonsense is said. You can't teach those unwilling to actually learn.

Those willing to learn will base their learning on a solid foundation. That foundation is what science says will and has to happen. They have to first be able to empty their cup of all the old myths. There isn't one thing the pros do that any A player can't do with the one exception of consistency. And, a lot of that consistency is in the head, not on the table.

So, go ahead and keep believing the things that don't make any sense. It's your game that will suffer, not mine. I'm 60, almost 61, disabled, and my game is still improving. And, it never would have without the science backed knowledge I now have.

I vastly slowed down posting because, while I still enjoy helping others, the aggravation of constantly having to deal with those that don't want to learn, and having to counter the absolute B.S. that some post, is just not worth it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DTL
Good post. I think the idea of what type of finish you want on the stroke helps formulate the entire stroke from the backswing, forward.

Massey has talked about his follow through for his draw stroke before, during demonstrations. He likes to drop the elbow and follow through. No doubt it works for him.

Best,
Mike

This has been discussed in the past. Why the same myth is being employed yet again is rather baffling. If you watch the video with start/stop, you will clearly see that Mike doesn't even drop his elbow until after contact. His follow through is only about 6".
The length of about 2 1/2 balls.

Mike in the past has stated that is all in the elbow drop. Then, he was shown what he is actually doing, and was quite surprised. He no longer states what he used to state.

Some people have more fast-twitch muscles fibers, and therefore are able to generate higher cue speeds than most can. It's all about where one contacts the cb, and at what speed.
 
Just like some boxers have faster hands than others.


This has been discussed in the past. Why the same myth is being employed yet again is rather baffling. If you watch the video with start/stop, you will clearly see that Mike doesn't even drop his elbow until after contact. His follow through is only about 6".
The length of about 2 1/2 balls.

Mike in the past has stated that is all in the elbow drop. Then, he was shown what he is actually doing, and was quite surprised. He no longer states what he used to state.

Some people have more fast-twitch muscles fibers, and therefore are able to generate higher cue speeds than most can. It's all about where one contacts the cb, and at what speed.
 
Back
Top